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We have always made it real simple. If they make contact with an open mouth they are gone.

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I wouldn't go back there myself. If a moh sends you out to judge and then don't trust you on a call like that and want back you up. I'd be done there.

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Gosh I guess I need to get out more I just ain't seen all these mean dogs y'all are seeing buuuuuut they don't live long down here. If a man intentionaly hunts a mean dog in a hunt he deserves more than being scratched jmo!!

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If you have an intense tree dog there is going to be some blowing every now and then, but when a dog physically takes hold of another they are scratched plain and simple. I interpret the rules as if a dog is blows a little that is considered aggressive behavior but it must also interfere with another dogs ability to tree, track or hunt in order to scratch. On the other hand when a dog becomes physical by biting, grabbing or whatever it is scratched. I had an incident a while back where we cut loose my female trees alone. As we are walking in a male dogs loads and you hear fighting break out. When we get to the tree my female in laying in the weeds leg ripped open and puncture marks through her head requiring treatment. As the owner tied the male dog back the judges dog came in and was grabbed by the same dog on the face. The judge still refused to scratch the dog and only placed it under warning for physically attacking his dog. Needless to say I had to withdraw and get my female to my vehicle to stop the bleeding. Since the judge refused to scratch I went back to club to report the incident with the Master of Hounds and no one was there. I was later told by a friend of the handler with the ill dog that he normally does not even bring the dog to the club out of fear it will attack someone walking by if it is tied out. Dogs like that have no business being hunted in a hunt. We as hunters invest to much money in dogs to allow them to be ate up by a dog with a negligent handler. I know fights will happen that is a given but dogs that have a history of aggression have no place in hunts.

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quote:

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Originally posted by joey
We have always made it real simple. If they make contact with an open mouth they are gone.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Allen / UKC
Lol. Probably because I have learned over the years that one mans definition of "fighting, attempting to fight, grabbing, nipping, snapping, off the tree, the canopy rule, den tree, not a den tree, circle tree, slick tree, interference, not interference, etc." is a farce from the next man's definition.

Your description of the second dogs reaction suggests that there was an offense. Aren't we making this into more of a deal then it really is?

Hersh, I think tree jacking has been covered, at length, in an old Advisor Column. I'll see if I can find it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Allen / UKC
Lol. Probably because I have learned over the years that one mans definition of "fighting, attempting to fight, grabbing, nipping, snapping, off the tree, the canopy rule, den tree, not a den tree, circle tree, slick tree, interference, not interference, etc." is a farce from the next man's definition.

Your description of the second dogs reaction suggests that there was an offense. Aren't we making this into more of a deal then it really is?

Hersh, I think tree jacking has been covered, at length, in an old Advisor Column. I'll see if I can find it.

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Location: Morrison TN
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It's real simple. There are two parts to the rule.

Fighting: Dogs are scratched for fighting, when the agressor is known it is scratched.

Attempting to fight: If a dog shows agressive behavior that interferes with another dog he is scratched for attempting to fight. Agressive behavior is blowing, pushing yada.

TREE JACKING IS NOT AN AGRESSIVE BEHAVIOR per previous advisor, if a tree jacker lands on another dog and that dog takes hold he's gone for fighting tree jacker stays.

Biting another dog is fighting IMO.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Rip
It's real simple. There are two parts to the rule.

Fighting: Dogs are scratched for fighting, when the agressor is known it is scratched.

Attempting to fight: If a dog shows agressive behavior that interferes with another dog he is scratched for attempting to fight. Agressive behavior is blowing, pushing yada.

TREE JACKING IS NOT AN AGRESSIVE BEHAVIOR per previous advisor, if a tree jacker lands on another dog and that dog takes hold he's gone for fighting tree jacker stays.

Biting another dog is fighting IMO.

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Location: Troy, MO
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A young friend of mine hunted a dog in Illinois a few months ago. Dogs got treed and when judge walked in he scratched my friends dog for nipping at the dogs ear next to him on tree. Nobody else on cast saw it and dogs never moved off tree. Judge was wrong because there was no interference. Some judges use this to eliminate the competition and I think it's awful to screw a young guy starting out like that. Dog got wrote up.

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quote:

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Originally posted by davebastean
A young friend of mine hunted a dog in Illinois a few months ago. Dogs got treed and when judge walked in he scratched my friends dog for nipping at the dogs ear next to him on tree. Nobody else on cast saw it and dogs never moved off tree. Judge was wrong because there was no interference. Some judges use this to eliminate the competition and I think it's awful to screw a young guy starting out like that. Dog got wrote up.

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Location: Michigan
Posts: 9282

quote:

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Originally posted by strauser
This comment really takes the cake! I guess I've been culling the wrong dogs this whole time, better hang on to the alligators from now on. I guess having a respectable tree dog that wants to tree and only tree, not fight or fight back isn't what a guy needs to win anymore! Look out boys we're gonna clean the tree off, may the toughest dog win! psh

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Location: Millington, Michigan
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quote:

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Originally posted by 4play
JMO
A 'snap' or any 'bite' should be sent home.No if's and's or butts about it!

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Location: Pomeroy, Ohio
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I judged a 3 dog cast one night, all male dogs. First drop Dog A busted out and was gone, Dog B took off but stalled out about 40 yards from us and didn't want to really go, Dog C went about 20 yards and started scratching and growling around. Dog B's handler wanted me to scratch Dog C for aggressive behavior. I told him I couldn't because Dog C was between us and Dog B and wasn't interfering with Dog B's ability to go hunting.
Next turnout cut all 3 dogs and they took off. Dog C cut to the front, turned and cut off Dog A and they had a circling contest with Dog C showing dominance and Dog A having his tail up but wagging also in a position of I don't want to fight but I'm not going to let you jump on me either. Dog C was scratched at that point because he demonstrated aggressive behavior and was also interfering with Dog A's ability to go on hunting.
Same rules apply on a tree as far as aggressive behavior and interference. Are they interfering with the other dogs ability to tree, not in the same style as they normally would if they were alone, but are they keeping the other dog from treeing with their aggressive behavior. The Judge has to decide the level and intensity of the "aggressive behavior" and make the call.
In the turn loose scenario, If Dog C would have bitten one of the other dogs then there is no doubt he was fighting and didn't need to grab the other dogs, so he would have been scratched immediately. Just like on a tree, if they bite then they are fighting.
If I swing my arms at someone else in an aggressive way and am trying to get someone to fight, I'm not fighting. If I hit someone, then I am fighting.
If the judge sees a dog bite another dog and the other dog retaliates, then the aggressor is known and only the aggressor is scratched. If two dogs are in a fight and the Judge didn't see and therefore can't tell which dog started the fight then both dogs are scratched for fighting.

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This is not to brag so don't nobody don't take it that way I defiantly don't have nothing to brag about right now three of the hardest stay put tree dogs to live in my back yard all three if they wanted to could have absolutly took a dog apart grch Grntch Yadkin tar chief ,2000 pkc world ch patoka lake bozz and grch Grntch yadkin tar deacon all three would just back up and stay out of the way out of a ruff dog I have had others that were coondogs but the second I found out the were I'll tempered they were gone and I owned one of the most psychotic mean alligators in the world that I gave away and he later was studed for $1,000 and got on the front cover of the bloodlines his name was the crow lol!!

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: arena,wi
Posts: 91

Been hunting for 40+ years and we still have this problem aggression is aggression until we have 0 tolerance we will always have these issues learn to live with it or quit the hunts
I vote for 0 tolerance

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: arena,wi
Posts: 91

Been hunting for 40+ years and we still have this problem aggression is aggression until we have 0 tolerance we will always have these issues learn to live with it or quit the hunts
I vote for 0 tolerance

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Location: Michigan
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quote:

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Originally posted by ov_blues
I judged a 3 dog cast one night, all male dogs. First drop Dog A busted out and was gone, Dog B took off but stalled out about 40 yards from us and didn't want to really go, Dog C went about 20 yards and started scratching and growling around. Dog B's handler wanted me to scratch Dog C for aggressive behavior. I told him I couldn't because Dog C was between us and Dog B and wasn't interfering with Dog B's ability to go hunting.
Next turnout cut all 3 dogs and they took off. Dog C cut to the front, turned and cut off Dog A and they had a circling contest with Dog C showing dominance and Dog A having his tail up but wagging also in a position of I don't want to fight but I'm not going to let you jump on me either. Dog C was scratched at that point because he demonstrated aggressive behavior and was also interfering with Dog A's ability to go on hunting.
Same rules apply on a tree as far as aggressive behavior and interference. Are they interfering with the other dogs ability to tree, not in the same style as they normally would if they were alone, but are they keeping the other dog from treeing with their aggressive behavior. The Judge has to decide the level and intensity of the "aggressive behavior" and make the call.
In the turn loose scenario, If Dog C would have bitten one of the other dogs then there is no doubt he was fighting and didn't need to grab the other dogs, so he would have been scratched immediately. Just like on a tree, if they bite then they are fighting.
If I swing my arms at someone else in an aggressive way and am trying to get someone to fight, I'm not fighting. If I hit someone, then I am fighting.
If the judge sees a dog bite another dog and the other dog retaliates, then the aggressor is known and only the aggressor is scratched. If two dogs are in a fight and the Judge didn't see and therefore can't tell which dog started the fight then both dogs are scratched for fighting.

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All this fighting talk gets me stirred up lol! I ever tell y'all about the time I got whooped by a midget ! He knocked me out with the first punch the other 7 punches on the way to the ground were unessasary lol! True story.

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If I remember correctly, scratched for actually fighting has always been in the rules. At some point, the rules were changed to also include aggressive behavior as a scratchable offense and was defined as it is now. However at that point interference wasn't also required with the aggressive behavior. It became way too easy for people to scratch someones dog for aggressive behavior when there wasn't anything going on. Someone other than the judge would get a lead in a cast and the next tree the dog in the lead was face barking and the judge and someone else said they saw something and the Dog leading was gone. Or a hard slobber slinging radical tree dog was determined to be treeing aggressively, Dog was gone. The interference part was then added as a requirement to scratch for aggressive behavior. Aggressive behavior with interference almost has to be there to keep some kind of balance. It may not be the best thing that could be, would be better if everyone was honest and saw things the same way, but it is the way it has to be in my opinion.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Charles Pullen
Nibbling at or Nibbling on ? I agree if he nibbling at , but nibbling on is another thing . It then becomes a more serious problem !

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quote:

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Originally posted by davebastean
o

Either way there has to ALSO be interference. That's the rule. Otherwise it's too easy for a crooked judge to "see" something that never happened.

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quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
All this fighting talk gets me stirred up lol! I ever tell y'all about the time I got whooped by a midget ! He knocked me out with the first punch the other 7 punches on the way to the ground were unessasary lol! True story.

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quote:

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Originally posted by davebastean
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Either way there has to ALSO be interference. That's the rule. Otherwise it's too easy for a crooked judge to "see" something that never happened.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Rip
Inteference is NOT required if they are fighting. Biting another dog is fighting.

Just like the guy above said, swinging punches (face barking growling) is attempting to fight, but it has to interfere.

Landing a punch (putting teeth on) is fighting, dog is gone per the rules. No interference needed.

Interference is not part of the scratched for fighting rule.

It IS part of the attempting to fight rule.

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