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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw
Maybe I was thinking of a later litter. Does it really matter if its from frozen semen or straight out of the live stud?
Does anyone really think the pups would be different ?

I myself don't think that at all. I hope that isn't what you got from what I posted. And I don't think that you are going backward either. I was trying to say that myself as my personal preference is that I would rather breed to a stud out of a stud because the female adds a little something to the new stud in addition to what his daddy had. I also think that some people collect semen because they have a personal and sentimental attachment to their old stud that they raised. But then sometimes
I "think" funny. My logical prcesses have been burned out over time.

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03-01-2016 06:10 PM

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Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
I myself don't thinpossible. At all. I hope that isn't what you got from what I posted. And I don't think that you are going backward either. I was trying to say that myself as my personal preference is that I would rather breed to a stud out of a stud because the female adds a little something to the new stud in addition to what his daddy had. I also think that some people collect semen because they have a personal and sentimental attachment to their old stud that they raised. But then sometimes
I "think" funny. My logical prcesses have been burned out over time.

I didnt take what you said like that...but i have heard a few say that you dont get the same quality of pups from frozen semen as you do live. I have never seen evidence of that.
See, my reason for using frozen on Billy is different than most might think.
For one...there are almost no male studs left out of him from live breeding.
And second, Almost every cross I have made in the past 5 years with his frozen semen has been a line bred cross on females that already have him further back in their pedigree.
See, without frozen semen, those particular types of crosses would not be possible. I simply could not combine the traits and genetics in the way I wanted to because of the time span between Billy when he was alive and the females a few generations out that I wanted to cross back on him.
In my mind, as I look back on how he was bred years ago...he wasnt bred correctly with the sole intent to produce high % litters....but then again, nobody was really doing that with any redbones back then.
The standard practice was to breed as many females as possible and hope you connected on a few....and thats what Roy did with him.
But Billy was not a tightly line bred dog so his genes where not as dominant when you crosses him on unrelated females and the traits of the pups were just all over the map. So when I started using his semen about 5 years ago, and John Biggert was the first to breed a female to it with Amber...
That cross and every other cross except Willow has been on females that have Billy as an ancestor at least once and in most cases more than once. By doing that, it further condensed and concentrated the traits that I feel made Billy great and passes them on in his recent offspring in a more dominant form.
So having said all that....I feel like his offspring may infact produce better, more high % litters than he himself did...with a wider range of blokdlines they are crossed on.
For example look at Rabble Rouser...he is a high % reproducer...but many of his ancestors were not. But...when they line bred them in a way that concentrated those traits into Rabble those traits became much more dominant and are now seen im the majority of his offspring.
I tried to do the same thing with Billy the Kid only the line breeding is a generation or two further apart...but in some cases may be even more concentraited because there are multiple generations out of Billy back there inthose females pedigrees. So in a sense...I have tried to take a dog that wasnt line bred and by using his descendents....created litters who are line bred so as to concentrate and lock in the desired trates of the original target dog (BTK)
And I think it has worked to a large extent. Every litter that has been hunted in competition has produced titled nt.ch. and gr.nt.ch. dogs that show the abilities and traits I was going for and the % of pups to title from these litters is over 5x higher than his historical average...which proves to me that selective and targeted line breeding is the single best way to get the most from any stud dog. I guess thats just my opinion...but it is also based on 5 years of carefully collected in depth data and tracking by me. Its a pretty small sampling I know...but I will continue tracking results and if the trend changes I will be the first to admit it ....but so far I think its been a success.

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Shane Maxey
Proud lifetime member of the NRA
Banshee Wildlife Products
Hoosier Outlaw / Moonlight Redbones
1994 American Redbone Coonhound Association Hunter of the Year
My first 3 redbones raised from pup's were:
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Billy the Kid
Dual Gr.Ch.- PKC Ch. Outlaw Timber Girl
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Scarlett Fever
(((( Current Favorites ))))
2013 AKC Ladies World Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch.- PKC Ch- AKC Ladies World Ch Ky Moonlight Breanna
Gr.Nt.Ch. - PKC Ch. Ky Moonlight Woody
Dual Grand Moonlight Deana
Dual Grand Ch.- PKC Ch. Moonlight AfterShock
Dual Grand Nighty Night Amber
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Big Time Britt
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Billy Jean
Gr.Nt.Ch-PKC Ch.-2015 PKC Red Days Champ Outlaw Cherry Bomb
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Breeze
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man (over $20.000 won in PKC & CHKC) 2019 Southern Redbone Days Overall Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Mac
Gr.Nt.Ch. Classy Cali (Heavy Outlaw bred)
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Cat Scratch Fever
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Addiction
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Overdose
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Jinx
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Banshee
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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw
.....but I have heard a few say that you dont get the same quality of pups from frozen semen as you do live. I have never seen evidence of that........

So having said all that....I feel like his offspring may infact produce better, more high % litters than he himself did...with a wider range of bloodlines they are crossed on.

Oh my goodness, maybe we do think a lot alike. You just have a much more eloquent way of putting it.

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03-01-2016 06:52 PM

Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

The difference is...5 years ago there were no dogs available out of BTK that were bred the way I needed them to be for the foundation I wanted in my future breeding program...so I had to kind of start over with frozen semen and females descended from him to get the right combinations. In the years to come...because of these litters I should have several options that will allow me to continue building upon that foundation...but for sure it was slow going the first couple years until I could actually see that the results were matching the expectations.
One of the reasons I like using females who are out of Moonlight Kate or that are grand daughters of her is because, one...she is a grand daughter to Billy, and two...she is line bred on Burning Ben...who is Billy's daddy. Kate is out of a son of Burning Ben on top and a grand daughter of Burning Ben on bottom.
So like Rabble Rouser...I felt she was bred the way she needed to be to have particular traits locked in....in such a way that would allow her to pass them on in a high % of her offspring...and looking at her reproducing record I think that has been proven to be accurate.
Now when I cross Billy semen on females that go back to Kate...I am really concentrating that Burning Ben blood and traits as well as Outlaw Jessie blood and traits and the results have been what I had hoped for.
Now that doesnt mean I have the perfect dogs and exactly what I am working towards eventually having...it just means that of the desired traits I expected these crosses to produce...like drive, mouth, independence, and quick locating accurate tree dogs....I got those results in a high % of the offspring and I feel those traits are solidly locked in and provide a solid foundation to build on and try to add to without fear of losing what we have locked in so far.
I would like to add quicker and more consistent strike to this line down the road because only about half seem to be of that type, and now I feel I can make a few outcrosses to do that without worrying that any of those dogs traits might be more dominant and overpower or undermine the traits locked into my foundation dogs. I knew that it would take 4 to 5 years to lay a strong foundation with they right crosses to actually get the type of dog we wanted and needed to produce high % litters with dominant traits that are key to producing future generations that hopefully will meet some of our end goals.
I had a plan when I started building my program. I am not sure many fully understood what it was or where I was going with it outside of the few other breeders I have been working closely with the past few years...but it has been working in my eyes.
I feel like we are not quite half way to the end goals yet...but we are still on track.
Breeding better dogs isnt rocket science...but for me and a few other...it does take more than just breeding good dog to good dog. For the most part, we have been doing just that for decades and it has produced more good dogs.
But some of us are just not satisfied with "good dogs" ....we are striving to produce truly great dogs...and produce them at a higher percentage than this breed has ever done before.
We wont set the bar with the best redbones...we will measure our successes against the best dogs of all breeds in top level competition. Are we there yet...no.
We do get the occational "great"dog that pops up on the radar every year or so and is able to win at that level...but nobody and I mean nobody in this breed is consistently producing these types over and over again. That tells me that those dogs are not repeatable with any reliability by anyone...and if someone says different...show me the proof!
Everytime one pops up...lots of people start trying to take the credit for producing it and act like they knew exactly what they were doing and can easily do it again....ok...lets see you do it again then.
I am not talking about just good coon dogs that can win some...I am talking about the top 1% dogs who dominate wherever they go for as long as their streak lasts.
I think...and hope that someday we as a breed can eventually get to the point we can replicate these types of dogs with at least some degree of reliability...but until that happens....we need to keep laying a solid foundation and locking in as many of those much needed and desired competition traits as possible because with that we can produce better and better dogs at a high %.

Last edited by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-01-2016 at 09:40 PM

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03-01-2016 08:06 PM

Bobby Stevens
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2008
Location: Greeneville,Tn
Posts: 848

how about something with the huge mouths that some other breeds have not the common blend in with the crowd type the big horn locates the screaming squalling track mouths dogs that produce these need to be looked at where are they?? dogs that can take correction and training methods and don't fold up and quit you while your trying to get the work done that's needed what dogs throw these type and some size not the ones that look like red beagles females more so than males

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RON WOLTER
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2009
Location: Ct.
Posts: 1384

Breading-x-Reds

I hit & miss on my thoughts--
First--I have never bred a Female to frozen semen
but I say that is a good thing, first when you get a
performance ped you get to see how many pups that
the males had & females had in the ped. A N D
how many were Gr. Nt. & Nt. Ch. they Produced
& one red Female that I like for how many % wise
pups she had that titled out Gr Nt. Ch. Nighty Nite
Moonlight Kate- 29 pups Gr. Nt. - 9 Nt. Ch.- 6
she had an awesome reproducing record.

And a male I noticed that produced only 50 pups
is Gr. Nt. Ch. Wrongway Ace- 50 pups----
Gr. Nt. 4 Nt. Ch. 5 So when looking to bread
to a male that has frozen semen , has an advantage
that you can get back to some of the old blood.
So I agree with Shane it can have a lot of pluses.

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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

Bobby, I know where a couple of big mouth female pups are. You have to have the right combination of male and female to get them. You aren't going to get them from just breeding any female to a stud.
So, Shane, it sounds to me like you are only talking about using frozen semen on BTK and not some of the other old time studs and that is because BTK wasn't used correctly in a breeding program when he was alive. Am I correct or are my reading comprehension skills failing me again? I have been accused of "twisting things around" in the past.
Ron, wouldn't it be better to use one of those good studs out of Wrongway Ace and Moonlight Kate instead of frozen semen from Wrongway Ace?

Last edited by Richard Lambert on 03-02-2016 at 12:34 AM

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03-02-2016 12:30 AM

WattsFlatsRedbo
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Corry,Pa
Posts: 801

Thx to Shane I have 19 breedings stored on Jeb and I plan on going back to the well after he is dead and gone. IMO stored semem is a valuable asset if its from the right stud.For me I know exactly what traits mine has/had and that he throws many of the traits I look for in his pups too. Lock in traits with line breeding, then outcross to try and add what you need. If you start to get away from what suits you go back to the well. Stored semen. It shouldnt even be a question that its valuable in breeding programs if used correctly.

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Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Bobby, I know where a couple of big mouth female pups are. You have to have the right combination of male and female to get them. You aren't going to get them from just breeding any female to a stud.
So, Shane, it sounds to me like you are only talking about using frozen semen on BTK and not some of the other old time studs and that is because BTK wasn't used correctly in a breeding program when he was alive. Am I correct or are my reading comprehension skills failing me again? I have been accused of "twisting things around" in the past.
Ron, wouldn't it be better to use one of those good studs out of Wrongway Ace and Moonlight Kate instead of frozen semen from Wrongway Ace?

I have only spoke at length about Billy the Kid semen...but I have semen stored on quite a few studs at Nevergone.
In fact my last cross on Billy Jean was to frozen semen from Quad Grand Ch. Yellow River Red Blaze who has been dead for some time now. Billy Jean's first cross was to frozen semen from long dead Jesse James jr...(which produced G Man)
We also used Jesse James Jr. Frozen semen on Deana and Amber as well... So Im not sure why you think I am only using frozen semen from only BTK...
The truth is, there are not that many other redbone studs that were collected and stored during that era and Billy was the very first redbone to be collected, frozen, and stored in 1993. His half brother Key's Outlaw Red Moon was collected and stored several years later as was Moon's half brother Too the Max.
My Gr.Nt.Ch. Outlaw Biy Jean female is directly Out of BTK frozen semen and Amber...who herself was directly out of Too The Max frozen semen. So you could say I do in fact have dogs that have other frozen semen studs worked in. I think I actually have 8 or 9 different studs semen frozen and in storage at this time. All are dogs that I plan to use in my program at some time or another....most are line bred or will produce a line bred cross when used on our females.
I have tried to be as helpful as i can in offering to help those who have a good redbone stud get them collected and stored at nevergone because I see the potential of having those studs as options in the future and nevergone is only 10 mins from me.
I do in fact plan to use frozen semen from other studs from the past ...
I do have several females ...but it takes time to get around to every cross I want to make and do it in the order which makes the most sense for my program goals.

Last edited by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-02-2016 at 01:43 AM

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03-02-2016 01:33 AM

jerhovt
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2015
Location: Southern Vermont
Posts: 311

Richard
I think that is what Ron was getting at I could be wrong.
Because those two reproduced so well something from that cross to go back on down the rd would be a good by theory I feel it would work well if we get the rite female (I think we may have her now) I would like to try exactly that if possible Ron and I just spoke about this
This being said what male dogs were collected from the AceXKate?

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Hoosier Outlaw
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Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

quote:
Originally posted by jerhovt
Richard
I think that is what Ron was getting at I could be wrong.
Because those two reproduced so well something from that cross to go back on down the rd would be a good by theory I feel it would work well if we get the rite female (I think we may have her now) I would like to try exactly that if possible Ron and I just spoke about this
This being said what male dogs were collected from the AceXKate?

there is plenty of semen stored on Aftershock and there is also some stored on Big D

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03-02-2016 01:51 AM

jerhovt
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Thank you Shane

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03-02-2016 01:53 AM

JShelton
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Registered: Nov 2008
Location: Crab Orchard, Kentucky
Posts: 360

I seen ron swan had some bid D semen for sale. It was priced very reasonable too at least I thought it was. I think there was 5 breedings available.

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jdgher
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Woody

Woody. Balanced winner. Enough said.

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Hoosier Outlaw
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Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

Re: Woody

quote:
Originally posted by jdgher
Woody. Balanced winner. Enough said.

I have to agree....cant go wrong with Woody. He is one of the best in the breed.

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03-02-2016 03:54 PM

Adam Wingler
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Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Western NC
Posts: 1529

quote:
Originally posted by Bobby Stevens
how about something with the huge mouths that some other breeds have not the common blend in with the crowd type the big horn locates the screaming squalling track mouths dogs that produce these need to be looked at where are they?? dogs that can take correction and training methods and don't fold up and quit you while your trying to get the work done that's needed what dogs throw these type and some size not the ones that look like red beagles females more so than males

I'm a sucker for a big mouth myself. But, with what I've seen since coming to redbones, I haven't been disappointed in volume for the most part. I love one though that can take all the guess work out of calling AND be heard 2 ridges over!

As far as size, I've never seen a benefit to a real big dog, 50-60 pounds is plenty enough for me, but maybe one that I could saddle would provide a benefit?

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Kevin Jackson
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Registered: Dec 2006
Location: Montana
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Bobby Stevens I have a nice male and his mom headed to Kentucky very soon. If you get a chance get a hold of my buddy Chris Osborne and go take a hunt with them. They are loud enough to hear with anything I've ever hunted with and both are good sized leggy hounds. The female will be bred this summer and the male will be there if anyone would like to breed a nice female to him.

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Pastor Mike
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Registered: Jun 2003
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Posts: 2748

Re: Picking a stud

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Snyder
"If you don't know the dog, you better know the man."

If you can find an honest person with a good hound who is not afraid to point out the flaws in his dog instead of making him out to be infallible, then you have probably found your dog.

If you throw in the extra added bonus' of having a family of hounds in his pedigree and you have some experience with those lines and know what they can produce or know how they are probably going to cross with your female, then even better.

Finally, if you go to a hunt and get smoked by a dog and see it first hand, and you continue to watch this dog progress then you may want to consider that too if the above are in place.

Pretty much sums it up.

When I wasn't able to hunt with a stud I was interested in breeding to, I always talked to people who had hunted with the dog. I actually didn't use the people listed as references from the owners, even though I did listen to their descriptions but then I found people that had hunted with the dog and then looked for consistency in their descriptions. I feel very fortunate that I was able to hunt quite a bit with one of the best reproducers of our breed in Rabble Rouser. He was everything that Tom said he was and l loved hunting with him.

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03-04-2016 05:03 AM

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Chris Snyder
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Registered: Aug 2007
Location: SE Iowa
Posts: 950

Re: Re: Picking a stud

quote:
Originally posted by Pastor Mike
Pretty much sums it up.

When I wasn't able to hunt with a stud I was interested in breeding to, I always talked to people who had hunted with the dog. I actually didn't use the people listed as references from the owners, even though I did listen to their descriptions but then I found people that had hunted with the dog and then looked for consistency in their descriptions. I feel very fortunate that I was able to hunt quite a bit with one of the best reproducers of our breed in Rabble Rouser. He was everything that Tom said he was and l loved hunting with him.

Mike, when I made that post, I was thinking about two dogs. The first was Darrin G's old Huey dog. He never built that dog up, but he was awesome! The second was Rabble. I enjoyed hunting with Rabble and getting beat by him. I hate losing, but when it's to a good dog, I don't mind so bad! LOL It's also the reason my dogs will also carry that bloodline as long as I can help it. It also didn't hurt that he was owned by what I consider one of the best dog men I have ever known.

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03-04-2016 11:14 AM