Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:

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Originally posted by msinc
I must not be understanding what you are saying here...the 8 minutes does not start when you strike your dog. The 8 minutes starts when the last bark was heard. If the track is getting bad and dogs are slowing way down the judge should start noting the time when they last barked. Dogs could have been running the track for over an hour but it gets bad and they are shutting up. The last dog barked 7 minutes and 59 seconds ago and you hear a bark, that starts it all over again.
The way this post reads dogs have 8 minutes to what??? tree a coon??? From the time the first one is struck??? No, one of them has to bark once within 8 minutes or the track is minused.
One other thing to remember, time out or interference {last time I checked this word doesn't appear in the rules}...neither one excuses the fact that if dogs were trailing when time out called the points have to be minused.

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Just wait till the 8s almost up and tree your dog. Gives you an extra 5 with most judges today.

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quote:

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Originally posted by GA DAWG
Just wait till the 8s almost up and tree your dog. Gives you an extra 5 with most judges today.

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My ? really is this dogs have a good track high on the mountain go over there is no way you can get to top in 8 minutes so do you start the 8 were your at when they go out or wait till you get to the top so ya can hear them its just one of many things that happens hear in the mountains actually quite often or when a dog gets treed you got a say a thirty minute walk to get to the dog but once you leave that spot you want be able to hear that dog for about 15 minutes do you wait the five out there to give the other handlers a chance to tree before the 5 is up and do you apply the 2 as soon as you can't here the dog knowing the 2 is going to catch it before you can get to were you can hear it ?

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quote:

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Originally posted by wbond
My ? really is this dogs have a good track high on the mountain go over there is no way you can get to top in 8 minutes so do you start the 8 were your at when they go out or wait till you get to the top so ya can hear them its just one of many things that happens hear in the mountains actually quite often or when a dog gets treed you got a say a thirty minute walk to get to the dog but once you leave that spot you want be able to hear that dog for about 15 minutes do you wait the five out there to give the other handlers a chance to tree before the 5 is up and do you apply the 2 as soon as you can't here the dog knowing the 2 is going to catch it before you can get to were you can hear it ?

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Last edited by msinc on 02-09-2016 at 04:36 PM

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Location: WV
Posts: 394

It is amusing how most guys say UKC rules are so black and white. However there is a constant argument/misunderstanding on here over the rules. Maybe make it where you should have to be certified/tested by UKC before you can be a judge and present your certification to MOH prior to hunt. It would be more work on UKC's part but I believe it would make the hunts more enjoyable and a ton less arguments. Something has to be done. Way to many ways to cheat the system and tons of people willing to do it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by msinc
I understand exactly what you are saying, I own a bunch of land over in Natural Bridge. Unfortunately, you have to start the 8 after you hear the last bark and don't or in this case are unable to hear the dogs anymore. If it takes you 30 minutes to get to where you can hear them again then according to the rules the dogs should have been minused on that track 22 minutes ago. There is no provision in the rules that I am aware of to remedy this.
All that said, I am not saying cheat, but my hearing is not that good. I fired one too many high powered rifles in my day, so who am I to dispute someone that says he still hears them when I don't. The argument could be made that maybe I shouldn't be judging the cast. My hearing isn't that bad for the areas I hunt...if it was I would quit.
This of course has to be within reason, and how they left out...if a cast member is telling me he still hears dogs for 45 minutes and we walk from Natural Bridge to Fincastle....that aint gonna get it. If, on the other hand a handler says "I can barely hear them, they are this way" and you walk along {that way} and hear the dogs then it seems reasonable enough. I wouldn't minus them. The guy that's not in the lead surely would want to.


Edit: As far as the tree scenario, you start the 5 when a handler or handlers call their dog treed. If you are in a spot where you can hear them treed and you know the direction but know that you will lose hearing them on the way...it would take a real jackass judge to try and pull a 2 minute stunt. This is one of those things that can be better addressed at the beginning of the hunt. If you are the guide or the judge let the other handlers know that this may happen and how you intend to handle it. They will usually all agree on something that could eventually end up helping them...it's when they are behind in points that the try to weasel you. The rules do say you are to start walking towards the tree if it will take longer than 5 minutes. In both cases, track or tree...you and I both know that the way it is really going to go down is the "Garmin" way.....

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quote:

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Originally posted by wbond
My ? really is this dogs have a good track high on the mountain go over there is no way you can get to top in 8 minutes so do you start the 8 were your at when they go out or wait till you get to the top so ya can hear them its just one of many things that happens hear in the mountains actually quite often or when a dog gets treed you got a say a thirty minute walk to get to the dog but once you leave that spot you want be able to hear that dog for about 15 minutes do you wait the five out there to give the other handlers a chance to tree before the 5 is up and do you apply the 2 as soon as you can't here the dog knowing the 2 is going to catch it before you can get to were you can hear it ?

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Has anyone ever had the issue where you might have trouble making the deadline so before the hunt starts you make a certain deadline where you will stop hunting and head back to the club?

For example: I was at a hunt and the judge gathered us around and said where pretty far from the club and it will be close to make it back before the deadline. Dealing was 2 am so he said no matter how much time is left at 1:30 the hunt will be over. He said I do it this way so no one is at an advantage when it come down to the end of the hunt and wanting to walk it off. Didn't seem right to me but they all agreed.

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Yes, some of these clubs are hurting for guides so they ask guys to guide a hour out, when I'm asked in that situation, I say i will but got to change the deadline, if your going to put a hunt on have enough curiosity to give the boys and girls plenty of time to get their time in

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Location: Maryland
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quote:

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Originally posted by ThatBlueDog
Has anyone ever had the issue where you might have trouble making the deadline so before the hunt starts you make a certain deadline where you will stop hunting and head back to the club?

For example: I was at a hunt and the judge gathered us around and said where pretty far from the club and it will be close to make it back before the deadline. Dealing was 2 am so he said no matter how much time is left at 1:30 the hunt will be over. He said I do it this way so no one is at an advantage when it come down to the end of the hunt and wanting to walk it off. Didn't seem right to me but they all agreed.

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Registered: Dec 2013
Location: Nichols Ny
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quote:

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Originally posted by msinc
It was absolutely not right!!! This is along the lines of my original post...the fact of the matter is that under UKC rules, and to be fair to all casts, all dogs MUST hunt the full two hours. The idea that you can end a hunt at only an hour and forty minutes to make it back to the club is no different than allowing dogs to be lead around on a leash for the last twenty minutes...either way, the problem is that the dogs in the casts that operate this way were excluded from hunt time in which they could have run up a bunch of minus points.
Everyone agreeing to this in the casts or the entire hunt doesn't make it correct or acceptable either...Jim said it best, "if we all agree, lets give plus points for possums!!!"
Why not just agree to forgo the entire hunt and go to a bar and drink for the two hours, then flip a coin for the cast winner??? Come on guys, it's a hunt test for dogs...so test them!!!
One of the reasons clubs and judges and probably some master of hounds get away with this is because it goes unreported. There is a simple procedure to follow, but rather than do it and get it stopped most guys don't want to make waves.

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quote:

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Originally posted by HOBO
99.9% of the time most guys that hunt those mtns. are gonna wait till they get to the top before they ever think about putting the 8 on them.

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What were the scores when this happened?

Sometimes people just need to get out of the way and don't.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Josh Michaelis
What were the scores when this happened?

Sometimes people just need to get out of the way and don't.

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I will not withdraw if I have the slightest chance to win. I will also not continue to hunt if I have ZERO chance of winning.

We can make up scenarios all we want, but we know when there is not chance. When that situation arises I see no point in continuing. I am not sure why others do either.

The last UKC hunt I was in was an open cast. I had 575 +, no circle, no minus, the only other dog left in the cast has 25-. The others had withdrawn. There was 9 minutes left, and he recut because he didnt understand that he had literally no shot. Therefore I had to walk a mile to my dog after the hunt because that is how far he had to go to get away from a facebarking covering puke of a dog that had followed him all night.

Like I said, some people just need to know when they are beat and get out of the way. As far as walking the cast out, it doesnt bother me, despite it being against the rules. If I had turned loose by myself I doubt I would have had to go far because we were in thick coons and he would have took the first track he came too.

In other KC's it is the same. I was at a large hunt last fall and at the end of the cast I was down 50 with 12 minutes to go. The other two dogs in the cast needed 4 coons solo in 12 minutes to catch the leader. They cut them loose and sucked up first and second strike when they should have just kept them on the lead.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Josh Michaelis
I will not withdraw if I have the slightest chance to win. I will also not continue to hunt if I have ZERO chance of winning.

We can make up scenarios all we want, but we know when there is not chance. When that situation arises I see no point in continuing. I am not sure why others do either.

The last UKC hunt I was in was an open cast. I had 575 +, no circle, no minus, the only other dog left in the cast has 25-. The others had withdrawn. There was 9 minutes left, and he recut because he didnt understand that he had literally no shot. Therefore I had to walk a mile to my dog after the hunt because that is how far he had to go to get away from a facebarking covering puke of a dog that had followed him all night.

Like I said, some people just need to know when they are beat and get out of the way. As far as walking the cast out, it doesnt bother me, despite it being against the rules. If I had turned loose by myself I doubt I would have had to go far because we were in thick coons and he would have took the first track he came too.

In other KC's it is the same. I was at a large hunt last fall and at the end of the cast I was down 50 with 12 minutes to go. The other two dogs in the cast needed 4 coons solo in 12 minutes to catch the leader. They cut them loose and sucked up first and second strike when they should have just kept them on the lead.

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quote:

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Originally posted by shadinc
I think you have skewed view of what COMPITITION hunting is. Do you think it's right for the other casts to be competing against three other dogs while you have nothing to compete with? If they get scratched that's one thing, but as long as they're eligible, they should compete.

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No, I don't think it's fair to hunt by yourself if the other dogs are eligible. In your previous post you stated that 2 other dogs sucked up 1st and 2nd strike. That's 50 points you didn't get because you were still competing. Without those 2 dogs you have a 50 point advantage over the other casts.

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You bring up a few interesting points Mr. Michaels. If a handlers dog is beat he's beat, but it is his choice alone to stay in the hunt or get out. Most of the time a dog that gets clobbered doesn't too much affect the way a good dog operates anyway.
Maybe I did a bad job of explaining what "walking out the hunt" means {at least as far as this thread is concerned}. I think it got confusing when I described the last hunt I was on. In that situation there was one dog that was clearly going to win. Two other dogs did not opt to withdrawal. These three wanted to leash the dogs and go to the truck {end the hunt} with 20 minutes left to go until the two hours was up. Walking out the hunt is simply stopping before the two hours is up, whether one dog is winning or not. Really has nothing to do with scores, more the handlers don't want a chance at minus or chasing dogs any further.
In your posts you said you had "no problem with walking out the hunt." We must be talking about two different things, because my version of it is cheating, slap simple. You seem like a straight up guy and don't strike me as the type of handler that would simply cheat in a nite hunt.

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quote:

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Originally posted by msinc In your posts you said you had "no problem with walking out the hunt." We must be talking about two different things, because my version of it is cheating, slap simple. You seem like a straight up guy and don't strike me as the type of handler that would simply cheat in a nite hunt. [/B]

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It did use to say or still does if you wasn't moving over ??? You couldnt call time out. You just moved. How far was it 15 min? Does it still say that?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Josh Michaelis
Like I said, if every one agrees to walk out the last few minutes of a decided cast, I honestly don't care.

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quote:

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Originally posted by wbond
Dennis are you saying all of us hillbillys are cheats lol because I have been hunting competition hunts of all kinds of different kennel club since back in the sixties and that's the way it's always been done as far as the hunting time we have always hunted it except maybe a minute are two I have seen plenty of people with draw to keep from hunting that last ten minutes in these mountains for one thing your probably not going to tree anything and you could be in for one heck of a walk and it's very common here to go back to the club see how or if you placed than have to head back to were you turned loose the last time and go get your dog

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quote:

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Originally posted by msinc
So you will cheat, you are not as straight as I thought. I am disappointed to hear that. A lot can happen in the last few minutes to scratch a dog. It is not decided until the dog has hunted the full 2 hours. But, if that is how you want to title your dogs...well you could probably care less about that too. At least no one can argue with your honest.y

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