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Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

quote:
Originally posted by Butterbean26
Should a proven crosses be worth more than a first time cross?

If you mean a repeat of a previous cross...I wouldnt take one if you paid me. Ive studied that very subject of repeat crosses in depth and the odds of a repeat cross producing as many or more titled dogs as the initial cross is slim to none. While its true, there are a few times when a repeat cross has produced a good dog or two...for the hundreds if not thousands of times its been done over the years...the evidence shows over 90% of the time you will get fewer titled dogs than a first time cross that produced several titled dogs.
Everyone wants to hold up a single dog who does well from a repeat cross now and then and say "ah ha...this disproves it!" ...but if you sort through the evidence ...you almost always find that the first cross produced a higher percentage of titled dogs than almost every repeat cross has in almost every single case. For that reason I dont repeat crosses or get pups from repeat crosses. At the beginning of this thread I talked about the bad luck I had with paying big money for pups 25 years ago....those were pups from repeat crosses in the walker breed. Many of the dogs from the first crosses titled out and are seen in most walker pedigrees even today so the breeding was solid...but the repeat cross or proven cross theory did not and usually never does repeat the same number of great dogs as the first cross did.
If I had a female who hit a home run with a cross, i would not waste the next breeding on going back to the same male when over 90% of the time it is almost a sure thing the repeat cross will not produce the same percentage of great dogs....I breed them to a different stud and hope to top the results of the first cross....but thats just how I run my breeding program. Its a free country and other folks can do what they please...but I think its a path to dissapointment for the buyers of those pups. I think most people do it not because its proven to produce more great dogs...but because its proven that you can ask ...and get more money for pups from a "proven" cross. JMO

__________________
Shane Maxey
Proud lifetime member of the NRA
Banshee Wildlife Products
Hoosier Outlaw / Moonlight Redbones
1994 American Redbone Coonhound Association Hunter of the Year
My first 3 redbones raised from pup's were:
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Billy the Kid
Dual Gr.Ch.- PKC Ch. Outlaw Timber Girl
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Scarlett Fever
(((( Current Favorites ))))
2013 AKC Ladies World Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch.- PKC Ch- AKC Ladies World Ch Ky Moonlight Breanna
Gr.Nt.Ch. - PKC Ch. Ky Moonlight Woody
Dual Grand Moonlight Deana
Dual Grand Ch.- PKC Ch. Moonlight AfterShock
Dual Grand Nighty Night Amber
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Big Time Britt
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Billy Jean
Gr.Nt.Ch-PKC Ch.-2015 PKC Red Days Champ Outlaw Cherry Bomb
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Breeze
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man (over $20.000 won in PKC & CHKC) 2019 Southern Redbone Days Overall Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Mac
Gr.Nt.Ch. Classy Cali (Heavy Outlaw bred)
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Cat Scratch Fever
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Addiction
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Overdose
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Jinx
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Banshee
"Always outnumbered...Never outgunned!"
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01-27-2016 06:00 PM

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Butterbean26
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2008
Location: clarksville,IN
Posts: 625

Very interesting!

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01-28-2016 01:21 AM

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Chris Snyder
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2007
Location: SE Iowa
Posts: 950

The Going Price...Averages

So, I went to all the breed boards, took five random litters from each breed and figured up the average price for a pup. I was pretty surprised.

RED-$360
WAL-$345
PLOTT-$320
LEP-$270
B/T- $240
BLU-$240
ENG-$220
XB-$165

Now, this could change pretty easy depending on what random 5 litters you grab, but I thought it was a good sampling of data.

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01-29-2016 12:11 AM

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Royce Taylor
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2007
Location: Dumas, Mississippi
Posts: 194

Pup Price

I have had people give me good bred pups over the years. I have gave away several. I have sold pups for varying prices up to $500. I have went higher when it was the last one and I wanted to keep it. I have gave away several. When I hear of a cross that I want a pup out of, I usually just tell them what sex pup I want and pay the price they ask.

If someone prices their pups at $1,000, it does not bother me at all, it's none of my business, they own them. I don't ask for any kind of guarantee if I buy one. If they want to guarantee it, they can tell me.

As for looking someone in the eye after the pup they bought didn't turn out, I have always done my best to make it what I felt was fair and right. I tell them that when they leave with them. I will replace it with another pup or refund purchase price. I had one returned about 20 years ago and I gave the guy his $200 back. I turned him loose for a few days then started hunting him. I sold him 3 months latter for $2500.

I believe I'll save this post in case any of you guys win a world hunt with a female because I will sure want a pup out of her for $250! Lol

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01-30-2016 08:32 PM

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ahallada
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2006
Location: California
Posts: 1867

Re: Pup Price

quote:
Originally posted by Royce Taylor
I have had people give me good bred pups over the years. I have gave away several. I have sold pups for varying prices up to $500. I have went higher when it was the last one and I wanted to keep it. I have gave away several. When I hear of a cross that I want a pup out of, I usually just tell them what sex pup I want and pay the price they ask.

If someone prices their pups at $1,000, it does not bother me at all, it's none of my business, they own them. I don't ask for any kind of guarantee if I buy one. If they want to guarantee it, they can tell me.

As for looking someone in the eye after the pup they bought didn't turn out, I have always done my best to make it what I felt was fair and right. I tell them that when they leave with them. I will replace it with another pup or refund purchase price. I had one returned about 20 years ago and I gave the guy his $200 back. I turned him loose for a few days then started hunting him. I sold him 3 months latter for $2500.

I believe I'll save this post in case any of you guys win a world hunt with a female because I will sure want a pup out of her for $250! Lol

Haha you got it Royce. Actually I'm sure one of these fine gentlemen will just give you one!

I've been avoiding this thread like the plague, but you hit some good points. I don't care what anyone else asks for their pups neither, that is their business. What I ask for mine is my business. I'm certainly not here to judge anyone. This breed needs to bury their differences and stick to a common goal. There may be many ways to get there and no way is better than the other.

If you want the best you have to expect to pay for it. It's no different than anything you get into. A new Mercedes is going to cost more than a new Volkswagon. It costs money to have the best. Breeding/genetics give these pups a far better chance at being the caliber of dog I'm looking for and saves years of agony trying to get to that level. I learned that from Max Hunter, who by the way was asking $500 stud fee on Famous Amos over 25 years ago before he was even famous. lol Max knew what he had and if others wanted it, then they were expected to pay for those years of hard work and thoughtful breeding practices.

I don't have a problem paying over $1k for a top bred pup and I don't have an issue selling one for that price out of some of the top in the breed. I could sell 10 pups for $1k and still not break even for the amount of money I have invested. It's a hobby for me. I don't breed to make money, but I'm sure not giving away the farm. In fact, I'm really not into breeding that much. I'll make a few high quality crosses a year at the most. That's the way I've always been.

As far as repeat crosses, I share a slightly different view. I do know that two top living reproducing males in this breed would be eliminated if repeated crosses were not performed with Moonlight Kate x Little Pepper. In fact one of the most successful crosses in the past few years was from one of these males (Jet). These two studs will continue to have a major impact on this breed as we move forward.

I have had some luck in the past with repeat crosses as well, especially if it is line breeding an already proven cross. Two of the better males out of Timber Jack were from repeat crosses and they are seen on many pedigrees today. Max Hunter made repeat crosses on proven crosses such as TC x Millers Valley Liz that worked. For the most part I agree that the first cross does produce a higher percentage of superior dogs, but there are are too many quality dogs we would have eliminated from the past that have impacted this breed in a good way. If someone has an outstanding litter of pups from the first cross, I would have no issue repeating this cross, especially if the genetics are stacked for it.

Breed to what you feel is going to move your breeding program and this breed forward, and ask whatever you want for the pups. It's a free country, but nothing is free.

__________________
Dr. Allen Hallada (Doc Halladay)

Current:

PKC Ch. Gr.Nt.Ch. Cat Scratch Fever
(Gr.Nt.Ch. PKC Ch. Moonlight Aftershock x Gr.Nt.Ch. PKC Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Breanna)
2016 Finished to PKC Ch. in one week!

Dual Grand Champion CHKC Ch., PKC Gold Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man
(Gr.Nt.Ch.Glissens JJ Jr. x Gr.Nt.Ch. Outlaw Billy Jean)
4 Generations of All Grand Nite Champions!
Timber Jack 3X and Timber Chopper over 30X
2019 Southern National Redbone Days Champion
2016 National Grand Nite Champion Redbone
2016 CHKC Redbone Days Champion
2016 PKC Super Stakes Reserve Champion
2016 CHKC Elite Shootout Winner - Texas
CHKC All Time Money Winning Redbone

Bodacious
(Gr.Nt.Ch. Gr.Ch.PKC. Gold Ch.CHKC CH. Outlaw G-Man x Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. CHKC Ch., PKC Gold Ch. Classy Cali)

Past:
Gr.Nt.Ch.Ch. Dawns Timber Jack
1988 American Redbone Days All Red Hunt Winner
1989 UKC World Champion Redbone
1989 Purina Outstanding Redbone Coonhound
#2 Historic Redbone Sire/ Top 20 All Breeds
American Redbone Coonhound Assoc. Hall of Fame

Gr.Nt.Ch. Bussrow Bottom Brandy II
1991 American Redbone Days Champion
1992 AKC World Champion Redbone
1992 ACHA World Champion Redbone
1992 Wisconsin State Champion
1994 US Redbone Days Opposite Sex
Produced 2 Nt. Ch. , 1 Gr.Nt.Ch. out of 2 litters and two Redbone Days Winners

Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. PKC Gold Ch. Layton's Classy Cali
2012 UKC World Champion Redbone and 7th Place Overall
2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 UKC World Champion Redbone Female
2015 PKC Blue Ribbon Pro Hunt Winner - Goodsprings, AL
2015 PKC Blue Ribbon Pro Series Race - 3rd Place Overall
2016 PKC Blue Ribbon Pro Hunt Winner - New Albany, MS
2016 PKC Texas State Race Winner
2016 PKC Redbone Breed Race Winner
PKC All Time Money Winning Redbone

PKC Ch. Gr.Nt.Ch. Coffman's Smokin Red Buck
2016 UKC World Hunt 5th Place and World Champion Redbone
2016 National Redbone Days Overall Winner

Gr.Nt.Ch. Reinhart's Central Page
(Gr.Nt.Ch. Timber Jack x Gr.Nt.Ch. Brandy II)

Gr.Nt.Ch. Too the Maxx
(Gr.Nt.Ch. Timber Jack x Gr.Nt.Ch. Jenkins Crying Katie)
1992 National Redbone Days Champion

Gr.Ch.Nt.Ch. Ambraw River Rock
(Gr.Nt.Ch. Timber Jack x Gr.Ch.Nt.Ch. Hersh's Huntin Red Kate)
1992 US Redbone Days Opposite Sex

Nt.Ch. Tree Bustin Annabelle
1986 American Redbone Days All Red Hunt Winner

Nt.Ch. Timber Mace
(Gr.Nt.Ch. Timber Jack X Nt.Ch. Tree Bustin Annabelle)
Mother of Gr.Nt.Ch. Babb's Hazel

Nt. Ch. Timber Shock
(Gr.Nt.Ch.Timber Jack x Gr.Nt.Ch. Outlaw Jessie)

Gr. Ch. Nt. Ch. Squaw Mountain Goldie
(Direct Daughter of Gr.Nt.Ch.Smokey Mountain Brandy)
1990 Autumn Oaks Best of Show Winner
1988 Indiana State Champion

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01-31-2016 03:01 AM

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Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

Re: Re: Pup Price

quote:
Originally posted by ahallada
Haha you got it Royce. Actually I'm sure Shane will just give you one! I've been avoiding this post like the plague, but you hit some good points. I don't care what anyone else asks for their pups neither, that is their business. What I ask for mine is my business. I'm certainly not here to judge anyone. This breed needs to bury their differences and stick to a common goal. There may be many ways to get there and no way is better than the other.

If you want the best you have to expect to pay for it. It's no different than anything you get into. A new Mercedes is going to cost more than a new Volkswagon. It costs money to have the best. Breeding/genetics give these pups a far better chance at being the caliber of dog I'm looking for and saves years of agony trying to get to that level. I learned that from Max Hunter, who by the way was asking $500 stud fee on Famous Amos over 25 years ago before he was even famous. lol Max knew what he had and if others wanted it, then they were expected to pay for those years of hard work and thoughtful breeding practices.

I don't have a problem paying over $1k for a top bred pup and I don't have an issue selling one for that price out of some of the top in the breed. I could sell 10 pups for $1k and still not break even for the amount of money I have invested. It's a hobby for me. I don't breed to make money, but I'm sure not giving away the farm. In fact, I'm really not into breeding that much. I'll make a few high quality crosses a year at the most. That's the way I've always been.

As far as repeat crosses, I share a slightly different view. I do know that two top living reproducing males in this breed would be eliminated if repeated crosses were not performed with Moonlight Kate x Little Pepper. In fact one of the most successful crosses in the past few years was from one of these males (Jet). These two studs will continue to have a major impact on this breed as we move forward.

I have had some luck in the past with repeat crosses as well, especially if it is line breeding an already proven cross. Two of the better males out of Timber Jack were from repeat crosses and they are seen on many pedigrees today. Max Hunter made repeat crosses on proven crosses such as TC x Millers Valley Liz that worked. For the most part I agree that the first cross does produce a higher percentage of superior dogs, but there are are too many quality dogs we would have eliminated from the past that have impacted this breed in a good way. If someone has an outstanding litter of pups from the first cross, I would have no issue repeating this cross, especially if the genetics are stacked for it.

Breed to what you feel is going to move your breeding program and this breed forward, and ask whatever you want for the pups. It's a free country.

When you say if you want the best you have to expect to pay for it...thats not always the case...especially with guys like me, and I can think of several others including Tom Solberg.
I do give pups away to lots of people...and trust me...they are not culls or pups of low value just because I dont ask the maximum price I think I could get for them....
In fact one of the hottest young redbone stud dogs today and the first Four Generation All Grand Nite Champion pedigreed redbone ever who's name id Dual Grand Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man was given by me to a young man who believed in the Outlaw line and convinced me that he would do everything he could to make him a coon dog...and I gave him the pup for free. You have probably heard of him Doc

In fact, there were 9 puppies in that litter...and based on the fact that thousands of dollars were paid for the last of the J.J. jr semen known to exist (G Man's sire) and the fact that John Biggert sold litter mate's to G-Mans mother Billy Jean for $1000 each (Billy Jean was a stud fee pup so I paid nothing) I suspect with the history making pedigree of this litter that I could have asked for...and received a pretty hefty price for these pups...if I chose to do that.
But.....I gave every pup to its new owner absolutely free...and even delivered them two states away to the people getting them.
Now I don't care what others price their pups for...or who pays those prices. I created this thread to get an idea of what most redbone folks feel is a fair price for a quality, well bred redbone pup. But I do kind of take exception when a few people on here (who in their attempt to justify why they price their pups so high, say things like you get what you pay for, or if you want the best, you have to expect to pay a higher price and so on. That makes it sound like the pups I produce...which have been $350 or less...and in many cases 100% free...are somehow not as good as pups priced for two or three times as much.
I have produced what I feel are some good crosses over the past 4-5 years and didnt charge much if anything for the pups from those pups from those crosses have grown up to be some big winning dogs over the past three years. There is always several on the performance points lists and their sires and dams are on the reproducers lists....so how did that happen if you have to pay big prices if you expect to get a pup that will be a big winner some day when almost nobody every paid a dime for most of those winning pups???
Like I said earlier in this thread, you get what you pay for might be true in most cases because it seems most people try to get every cent they can out of whatever they sell, maybe thats to be expected in a capitalist society...but there are a few people in this sport...and in this breed that are exceptions to that rule and I have proven for years now that I am one of them. I am doing as much as I can to help improve this breed (all too often at great expense to me personally) and I do not expect to make money from what I am doing...in fact I most certainly expect it to cost me a lot of money.
So why do it? I like to think it is my way of giving back to the redbone breed. It has been very good to me and I have never had trouble finding a good redbone. I realize that isnt the case for everyone (something I hope to see change)...but it is a fact in my case. I have been called stupid and foolish to my face by some people for giving so many pups away or charging lower prices for the ones I do sell....but I have never been called greedy or selfish!
So people can charge whatever they want for their pups and if they can find buyers at those prices...then good for you. but I want everyone reading this to know that I produce high quality, well bred crosses from proven winners and proven reproducers and I will always sell them for $400 or less and it doesnt matter if they win a world hunt or not...I will never price pups higher if I can help it.
I dont say this to make others look bad or anything...I price my pups so as not to exclude anyone who would be the best match for that pup from being able to own it. I want this breed to improve and I believe that what I am doing helps willing people to be able to start out on a level playing field that is all too often dominated by big money people who can afford to buy the best.
But ANYONE can take a pup and if that pup has the breeding and tools and its owner has the desire and willingness to invest his time, blood, sweat and tears into that pup and train it up right and resist the temptation when the big money men throw a stack of cash down in front of them to buy that dog they raised from a pup....if they can do that...then ANYONE can raise and train a dog and go on and win a world championship with it! And that my friends is PRICELESS. If I can help produce some of those pups that have that specific skill set and then get them in the hands of individuals like I just described so that one day we may see one of them or one like them become a Redbone World Champion.... then I am going to do it, even if it costs me money sometimes. Several people in my past took a chance on me once upon a time...and I regularly do the same for others to this day.
So the rest of you that want to try to make your money back...or even make a nice profit...go ahead. I am not standing in anyones way, or saying thats wrong...its just not what I am about or what i am ever going to try to do myself.
As to the other thing you mentioned about repeat crosses...
People repeatedly misquote what I have said on that topic.
I never have said a repeat cross cannot produce good dogs...they have. Never said those dogs from a repeat cross cannot reproduce...they have.
What I have said is this....The evidence is overwhelming that successful first time crosses (in my research criteria I have always defined that as having produced 3 or more titled dogs) when that same cross is repeated almost never produce as many titled dogs as the first cross.
There have been hundreds if not thousands of Repeat crosses also referred to as Proven crosses made each decade across all breeds. I have studied over a hundred now of those best known for the success of the first cross and have found a total of three that reproduced more titled dogs in a repeat cross and 3 or 4 that produced an equal number of titled dogs as the first cross.
The cross you referred to that produce Jet and Rocker was a repeat cross...yes both dogs made Grand Nite...but when you dig deeper you find out that the first cross produced 4 titled dogs so the repeat cross did not equal or surpass the first cross which included Pepper Ann and Burning Pepper and a couple of Nt.Ch.'s.... And, the female they are out of is the all time highest reproducing redbone...who reproduced Nt.Ch. and Gr.Nt.Ch. dogs from every litter she produced so she would not be your average repeat cross female anyway.
Look, when they crossed her on Ace she produced 4 titled dogs, so who is to say if instead of repeating that cross....she may have produced 4 or 5 more titled dogs out of another good stud dog?
You guys can hold up the miniscule amount of instances where a hand full of females actually did have a repeat cross that equaled or produced more titled dogs than the first cross if you want...but the cold hard facts show over 95% of the time, its almost a sure thing that you will get a litter that will not live up to the success of the first cross...so why do it???
If you have a female that has proven she can hit a home run by producing a litter where 3 or more pups go on to become titled winners...why waste that potential on a repeat cross instead of
doing your homework and finding another good reproducing stud to cross her on where she might actually produce better than her first cross? This is just one of the many things that costs our breed more success...not utilizing our best reproducing females for maximum results.
To be honest, I think this happens mostly because people think after the success of the first cross...they can get more money for a (PROVEN) repeat cross. If you really want to do whats best for the breed....follow where the evidence takes you and make your decision accordingly...and the evidence is crystal clear on this.
Again, people can do what they want in this breed....but if you want to know why I do what I do...just ask....but never assume its because of money...that I can promise you!
Good luck everyone...lets take this breed to the top!

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01-31-2016 04:59 AM

ahallada
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2006
Location: California
Posts: 1867

First off, hats off to you for helping out the poor guy or those in need. I have always appreciated that about you and appreciate all your hard work and dedication to promoting this breed and this line of dogs. I know that Tony appreciates everything you have done for him and I know he has passed this on to others as well by donating stud service to charity events and pups to kids who wouldn't be able to afford things like that otherwise. These are good things for the coonhound community.

Secondly, nobody is getting rich or making money off these dogs except maybe that guy in PA, the Redbone Man! haha

We all contribute to this breed in our own ways, whether it be through breeding, training, promoting, distributing, leading, supporting, etc.. I'm glad you have found your niche in the breed, and we need you. Before you there were many who put in hard work to promote and create the same bloodlines you are hunting today, and it didn't start with me or Alton. For example, there were over 15 people involved in the evolution of the breeding behind Moonlight Kate, one of the premier foundation females of this breed today. Max Hunter, Claude Miller, Glen Bosley, Roger Shabel, Roger Gibson, Donny Miller, John Graves, Me and Bill Wallock, Alton Key, Jordan Rathke, Mike Wright, Bob Henning, Brad Messersmith and yourself.

When Bill Wallock and I were promoting dogs in the 90s we put on thousands of miles and spent thousands of dollars making crosses that we hoped would further this breed in the future. We had Timber Jack, Burning Ben, Too the Max, Outlaw Moon, Ox the Fox, Nailor, Go Man Sam all in our kennels at one time or another along with some of the top bred females in the breed at that time including, Millers Betsy, Cane Spring Dawn, Bosley's Kate, Lookout Molly, Keys Jessie, Outlaw Billy Jo, littermates to TJ, and the first females out of Famous Amos. We didn't charge much if anything to make these crosses for people and this breed. We just did it and we didn't expect anything back. We were dedicated to producing the best. We gave many pups away and donated literally thousands of dollars to benefit hunts including St. Jude. I feel like we were rewarded immensely for our hard work and efforts and I wouldn't change a thing.

As I said before I have no problem for anyone who wants to give away pups, or sell them for profit. I don't think it will effect the direction of this breed. There will always be a percentage of pups in a litter that make it and title no matter if you give them away or if you sell them. The law of attraction will put the best pups in the best hands almost every time.

I'm not with you on the repeat crosses. So you would eliminate two of the best reproducing males alive today or you wouldn't? These will be foundational males for years, especially for those boys in MO. So you got a couple extra Nt.Ch. out of the first litter. I'm not buying the theory here. If you wouldn't have repeated this cross you eliminate two top producing males that have and will continue to impact this breed in the future in a big way. When it comes to breeding you have to keep an open mind. Genetics doesn't always do what you expect.

Outlaw Jessie produced great on two dogs, Timber Jack and Burning Ben. You can see this cross in a high percentage of dogs today. These were two highly concentrated Timber Chopper bred males, that were themselves, top current and historic reproducers. This was a line bred cross as Jessie was a grandaughter of Coffmans Joe, a son of Timber Chopper through her mom, Graves Bear Creek Ruby. The repeat crosses from Timber Jack and Burning Ben on Jessie (a female you consider to be a foundation breeding female and staple of your own breeding program) , produced better than the other males she was bred to including one of the premier Redbone reproducers of all time, Fireball.

It's always easy to say that Kate would have reproduced with anything she was bred to, which may be true, but we will never know. I do know that she was from one of the most highly concentrated Timber Chopper bred crosses at the time having TC at least 22 times. She was bred to reproduce the Timber Chopper characteristics including the gene responsible for the high reproduction in this TC line. TC himself threw a high percentage of coondogs with his characteristics. The ablity to pass this on to his offspring is actually a gene encoded on the chromosome. He passed his ablity to reproduce his characteristics on to his offspring. Kate is a great example of this, as her offspring are doing the same as she did in reproducing these TC traits. What we are seeing today is a popcorn popper effect of this highly concentrated TC breeding.

So am I surprised that Kate produced two of the better reproducers alive today from a repeat cross? Nope. It's in the genes baby!

Last edited by ahallada on 01-31-2016 at 05:18 PM

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01-31-2016 05:02 PM

Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

Again, you are totally missing my point on repeat crosses.
I never said they do not produce good dogs or dogs that have great ability.
I have never said that or implied that. It is all about the likelyhood and percentage of the litter that will turn out that way.
What to we see when we look at the reproducers list? We see numbers of dogs produced and numbers of dogs who are titled.
The do not measure performance on scale....the performance point list does a better job of that by showing how much a particular dog wins.
The reproducer lists tell us how many dogs out of an individual dog have won enough hunts to earn a title...and what % of that dogs offspring were able to do so.
Now, as breeders....what is the goal...to produce litters where one or two pups might be good to great dogs when they grow up....or...to reproduce litters where 3-5 or more might be great dogs when they grow up???
The walkers are kicking our tail here with some of their best reproducers producing entire or nearly entire litters of big winning dogs who go on to title out. You dont always see it in their reproducer lists because there are such a vast number of walkers out there...but on an individual basis they have many more higher % reproducers than our breed...especially on the female side.
Lots of the top walker breeders will never make repeat crosses...they have learned hard lessons. Russ Bellar, John Wick, and many others who have been in dogs longer than I have been hunting.
If we have learned nothing else in our breed, it should be that crosses that only produce one or two dogs capable of going on to win and earn a title is SUB PAR performance....regardless of how good that one or those two dogs are and what they win in their life time.!
In my opinion that is a barrier we need to break through in this breed.
We need to be able to produce litters where at least 3-5 or more pups... Are born with enoigh ability that they are able to grow up, hone their skills and win enough to earn titles and win at the top level.
What it boils down to is some people in this breed...knowingly or maybe unknowingly are making crosses that they call successful based on the only pup or maybe two pups in the litter turning out to be an actual dog with enough ability to win and earn a title....and to me, thats just not good enough!
To me we need to up our game and to do that we need to raise our litter percentages and the evidence I have found and talked about many times on this forum shows that repeat crosses do not increase your chances of producing a higher percentage of winners and titled dogs that a successful first time cross...so why on earth would we do it???
In fact....the cross you hold up as an example that Jet and Rocker are out of ...even with it only producing 50% of titled dogs that the first cross did...that in its self is rare as hens teeth.
Most never produce even one titled dog even though the first produced 3 or more.
The cross you talked about with Outlaw Jessie...lets dig deeper into it...
Her first cross on Fireball was pretty much a bust...produced one nt.ch.
Then they crossed her on Timber Jack and produced 2 dual grands
Then they crossed her on Burning Ben and she produced 2 Dual Grands, 1 Nt.Ch.
Then the REPEAT cross on Timber jack produced what...one Nt.Ch?
Then the REPEAT cross on Ben produced Dual Grand and a Nt.Ch.
So neither repeat cross produced better than the first cross.
Now lets look at a more modern cross....the cross my Gr.Nt.Ch. Ky Moonlight Breanna is from. It was repated TWICE for a total of 3 times by Danny Biggert...who I think learned a hard lesson on repeat crosses himself in doing so.
First cross...of which several died or got killed before they reached their prime...produced two big winning Grand Nite Champions in Breanna and Britt.
Second cross produced one dog who has made nt.ch. and third cross produced none. Now the parents of these litters have shown to reproduce well with other dogs they were crossed on...so why didnt the repeat crosses produce as many titled dogs as the first cross???
I can tell you that it wasnt because they were not placed in good hands. And after Bree and Britt started winning big hunts those who had the repeat cross brothers and sisters were even more motivated to turn their pups into the same kind of winners...but the genes just didnt line up right or something.
I have seen so many examples of this when studying repeat crosses....its not even a remote possibility to me that a repeat cross will be equal to or better than a successful first time cross...so I say again...why do it?
Sure you might get a good dog or two that can win and title...but its almost a given that there will be fewer that the first cross if it had several in it.
Are we so desprate in the redbone breed that we will go back to the same studand be happy to get one or two good dogs from a repeat cross when we might have gotten 3 or 4 from a different stud?
Bottom line is....its about over all numbers and percentages of titled dogs produced from successful first time crosses..not the ability or winnings of a single dog produced from a repeat cross. There have been big winners from repeat crosses...just not very many and its rare that it happens at all. You have better odds on having a high percentage litter of winners by making a first time cross...thats all I have said....now I hope I have made that clear so nobody gets confused about it. If you disagree....please, by all means feel free to post examples of repeat crosses that have produced more titled dogs than the first successful cross that produced 3 or more titled dogs...doesnt matter the breed...I would love to see them and campare them to my data.
Just remember the key criteria...the first cross must have produced 3 or more titled dogs. That excludes unsuccessful first time crosses from muddying the waters and shows that the breeder probably made a decent attempt at placing the pups in the hands of people who would give them a chance to title if they were good enough.
I think you and many others have not truly understood the point I have always tried to make on repeat crosses. Maybe the way I have stated it in the past has been confusing....but most seem to think the point is that repeat crosses never produce good dogs...thats not it. They may...on rare occassions produce a dog or two that becomes a big winner or even a good reproducer...but my point is and always has been....that there wont be as many as were in the first litter and the odds are against it happening at all.

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01-31-2016 07:55 PM

Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

BTW everyone, Allen and I are good friends and have been partners on dogs and known each other for about 25 years. We agree on most things...but like everyone else...we dont agree on everything. This is just debating back and fourth on something we both feel strongly about. Its not a fight or argument so I dont want folks to think that. He and I have both had some success in this breed and we both want to continue to help improve the breed...we just have different ways of doing it. Anytime dicissions turn to money, politics, or religeon it devides people. I dont want this thread to do that. I hope...that it helps us all work together better to improve this breed we all love. So good luck to everyone and lets get our dogs ready and get some big wins this year!

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01-31-2016 09:58 PM

mmarshall
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw
Again, you are totally missing my point on repeat crosses.
I never said they do not produce good dogs or dogs that have great ability.
I have never said that or implied that. It is all about the likelyhood and percentage of the litter that will turn out that way.

Now, as breeders....what is the goal...to produce litters where one or two pups might be good to great dogs when they grow up....or...to reproduce litters where 3-5 or more might be great dogs when they grow up???

The walkers are kicking our tail here with some of their best reproducers producing entire or nearly entire litters of big winning dogs who go on to title out.

Thought these needed repeated some are blind to this part when this topic comes up

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favorits ive hunted and or owned
grnt nighty nite moonlight kate rip
grnt moonlight pepper ann
Grnt jackpot Jackie rip
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ntch moonlights dirty danny b.rip (ntch moonlight kink x ntch sawblade reckon)
Current
Grnt moonlight ky Kate (grnt ranger x grnt moonlight Kate
Ntch Pr beaver creeks easy peezy three 1st place wins (jet x moonlight Bree)
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01-31-2016 10:28 PM

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ahallada
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Registered: Dec 2006
Location: California
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No No No you are missing my point! haha

We agree that the first cross will yield a higher percentage of dogs that make competition dogs in most instances. What I'm saying is you just eliminated Rocker and Jet from our gene pool. lol

As far as the TJ x Jessie litter there were actually 3 dogs in the second litter that made coondogs and two were exceptional. I only know of 2 from the first litter that made it. From the second litter, Outlaw Jack had 4 wins to Gr.Nt.Ch when he was killed and my Timber Shock dog finished to Nt.Ch. with a 1st place win at a big RQE at 2 years of age. It was the last hunt I was in before moving out west. Joe Maitland was even old enough to remember that. lol Was he Gr.Nt.Ch. material? Without a doubt, he was the most natural and smartest I've ever raised and finished. He was a coon treeing machine!

You are going to see both Outlaw Jack and Timber Shock in more pedigrees of winners in the next couple of years. Aubrey Butler and Chad Porter are keeping it alive! You may have heard of a dog by the name of Outlaw Jose Wales?

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01-31-2016 11:12 PM

Hoosier Outlaw
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Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

quote:
Originally posted by ahallada
No No No you are missing my point! haha

We agree that the first cross will yield a higher percentage of dogs that make competition dogs in most instances. What I'm saying is you just eliminated Rocker and Jet from our gene pool. lol

As far as the TJ x Jessie litter there were actually 3 dogs in the second litter that made coondogs and two were exceptional. I only know of 2 from the first litter that made it. From the second litter, Outlaw Jack had 4 wins to Gr.Nt.Ch when he was killed and my Timber Shock dog finished to Nt.Ch. with a 1st place win at a big RQE at 2 years of age. It was the last hunt I was in before moving out west. Joe Maitland was even old enough to remember that. lol Was he Gr.Nt.Ch. material? Without a doubt, he was the most natural and smartest I've ever raised. He was a coon treeing machine!

You are going to see both Outlaw Jack and Timber Shock in more pedigrees of winners in the next couple of years. Aubrey Butler and Chad Porter are keeping it alive! You may have heard of a dog by the name of Outlaw Jose Wales?

Jesse only had 9 titled pups
1st cross on fireball- 1 nt.ch.
1st cross on T.J. - 2 dual grands
1st cross on Ben - 2 dual grands
Repeat cross on T.J. - 2 nt.ch.
Repeat cross on Ben- 1 Gr.Nt.Ch. and 1 nt.ch.
I dont count "good dogs" who didnt title in my data because thats based on opinions. Jesse was as good a producer as could be found in the breed 25 years ago....but today we need to do better.
And the same genes found in jet and rocker could have and did reproduce through pepper ann and Burning pepper in the first cross. Had they just kept repeating that cross yes...we might have gotten jet and rocker...but would have missed out on dual grand Big Time Bo, dual grand moonlight aftershock, dual grand moonlight Big D, and dual grand Moonlight Deana and Gr.Nt.Ch. Ky Moonlight Kate....who knows how many other grand nites or dual grands might have come from a cross on a different stud?
I am a facts man who follows where the evidence takes me. It worked with the one repeat cross on Kate...but failed on two repeat crosses on deana who is from one of kates best crosses...
I will always go for higher percentages...and not try to get lucky on a very very long shot...but thats just me.

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02-01-2016 12:02 AM

Richard Lambert
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"The law of attraction", I like that.

Shane, thanks for what you do for the Redbone Breed.

I just wish that I could afford to give away pups. When you are already broke and don't have a job, then you have to try to recoup your losses. If I did not get the money back that I have spent in making a cross, then I could not feed the pups that I keep. If I did not recoup my losses on the first cross, then I can't afford to make a second cross. I bred Wendy to Jim and got excellant pups so I bred Wilma who is out of Wendy X Moose to Jim. Is this a "repeat cross"?

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02-01-2016 02:29 PM

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Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

There are lots of people doing many things to help this breed improve and succeed. Im sure many do much more than me in other ways...like some of the breed association officials, club officials who host redbone events, vendors and suppliers who donate products to redbone events etc.
I am grateful to everyone who pitches in and I am always glad to do what I can. And Richard, I have been thinking of taking a female down to Jim myself. I have always wanted to work him in to my program since I drew him at National Days back in 2011. He has a few things I would like to see more of in the crosses I make.

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02-01-2016 05:42 PM

ahallada
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Registered: Dec 2006
Location: California
Posts: 1867

"I will always go for higher percentages...and not try to get lucky on a very very long shot...but thats just me."

That is not true at all. Your highest percentage will always come from breeding like dog to like dog of the same family line (line breeding).

You just made a complete outcross onto a stud dog (although a really good one) with characteristics unmatched to the female you bred. Son I need to give you a lesson on breeding. You will learn the hard way that outcrosses will not give you the percentage of winners you are striving for. Outcrosses will produce a majority of average dogs with the rare freak that might be produced. I'm not saying outcrosses are a bad thing, I'm just saying you're not going to get the high percentage of winners you say you are striving for when it comes to performance. If we were breeding for show conformation or a certain physical trait then outcrosses work as they do in cattle. But when it comes to breeding for a high percentage of competition coondogs, I'd say outcrosses are worse than proven repeat crosses. Ya I said it! haha

Bring it!

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02-01-2016 09:45 PM

Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

quote:
Originally posted by ahallada
"I will always go for higher percentages...and not try to get lucky on a very very long shot...but thats just me."

That is not true at all. Your highest percentage will always come from breeding like dog to like dog of the same family line (line breeding).

You just made a complete outcross onto a stud dog (although a really good one) with characteristics unmatched to the female you bred. Son I need to give you a lesson on breeding. You will learn the hard way that outcrosses will not give you the percentage of winners you are striving for. Outcrosses will produce a majority of average dogs with the rare freak that might be produced. I'm not saying outcrosses are a bad thing, I'm just saying you're not going to get the high percentage of winners you say you are striving for when it comes to performance. If we were breeding for show conformation or a certain physical trait then outcrosses work as they do in cattle. But when it comes to breeding for a high percentage of competition coondogs, I'd say outcrosses are worse than proven repeat crosses. Ya I said it! haha

Bring it!

Before you take me to school why dont you take a look at some key lists that ukc compiles which track reproducers and how much their offspring are winning... you might see my name and the names of a few others who I have been working closely with on several of them. Luck? maybe...but I told folks exactly what I was going to do 5 years ago...and then did it...and I am still doing it.
You my friend have two dogs that are polar opposite
G-Man is about as tightly line bred as one can be on Outlaw blood and
Cali is as much of an outcross as any "redbone" can be
so by your statement...G Man will produce high % litters if bred to females with similar traits...but Cali has no chance of throwing high % litters out of anything....is that correct?
I would tend to agree that total outcrosses are not a direct path to higher % litters...and have said so many times.
However, when you want to add a particular trait that isnt dominant in the female you have...you must outcross to do that...preferrably to a male who is from a line where that trait is dominant....which is what I did in breeding B.J. to Blaze.
I am hoping to add that big houndy mouth and the colder nose and track drifting ability that I know is dominant in the dogs behind Blaze.
A breeder cannot line breed with every cross for years and years.
You know as well as I do that most of my females are heavier line bred than 90+% of the other redbones out there...and because of that they have a pretty dominant list of traits that show up in their offspring no matter what we breed them to. Dont think this was by accident. I called this shot 4-5 years ago when i said I was going to line breed till I felt I had certain traits locked into a foundation of females and then I would occasionally outcross to add desired traits...and then continue to linebreed to lock those traits into my line of dogs.
I have said this before...but I guess its worth repeating.
Generations of line breeding concentrate strong dominant traits and lock them into a line.
Out crossing is used to add a particular dominant trait to a line where it is weak or non existent....but if you just do it once and do not follow through by line breeding another generation or two to that line you outcrossed to...you could very well lose that trait you desired. It takes several generations of line breeding to lock a trait into a line to the point it is concentrated enough to be a dominant trait going forward.
Anyone who knows the line I hunt know that most of the females are dominant in a few traits...some I like....such as they are accurate and hard, hard chop mouth tree dogs.
Other traits I dont care for and would like to improve or change...like the fact that many are chop mouth on track and could use a better locate. So, to add a loud houndy bawl / squall track mouth, I bred to dogs like Blaze, Woody and Greatful Dead Red which are from lines where that type of mouth is pretty dominant.
Red is not an outcross to me because he is Outlaw bred on the bottom...and anything Moonlight (which came from the Outlaw line) or Outlaw bred to him would in fact be a line bred cross. Woody is also somewhat of a line bred cross as his Daddy goes back to the Outlaw line.
Blaze is an outcross...at least for 4 or more generations. This cross was not promoted as a high % cross because it was my intention to hopefully add two particular traits from Blaze into the offspring. Pretty much every other cross I have made in the past 5 years...some 8 or 9 I believe have been line bred crosses...so it's funny that you pick out the one outcross to use as an example of me saying I am trying to produce high % crosses but I am making low % out crosses.
As I said before...check out the reproducer lists...several of our females are on those lists and they didnt get there by producing one superstar from every litter....most have multiple titled dogs from each litter old enough to be in competition. That very thing was my goal and still is and probably will remain so.
I think me and the other guys I am working with have managed to do a lot with our breeding program in the past few years.
I know...there are still a lot of folks who are "old School" in their approach to breeding...but I looked around 5 years ago and said that just isnt working....the redbone breed is falling further and further behind the walkers and english breeds by competition standards. I took what I had learned since I started competition hunting in the mid 80's, studied many of the top breeding programs in the walker and english breeds and found some glaring differences. I did a lot of homework to narrow down just when and where the walker breed started to pull ahead of the pack and what caused that change.
I have talked about it many time in the past.
To make a long story short...it was when the all grand craze started about 1989-90. No...it wasnt because a dogs papers showed all grand nites on it so somehow that magically made them better...it was the by product of that.
Once the first all grand litter was produced...lots of folks wanted an all grand pup...so the only way breeders could supply what was being demanded by the public was to identify females who had the ability to earn a grand nite degree...and then concentrate on them until they finished out. It was kind of an arms race for almost a decade and those early on sold those pups for big money and those who were still breeding pr females found that it became very hard to sell those pups ...even at a discount!
So, what happened is...more good females where identified and then proven as winners and the buying public demanded pups be from not only big winning studs...but also big winning females...and the more generations of winning females the better.
A rising tide lifts all boat...and that tide was in the walker breed!
That is what kicked the walker breed and then the english breed to a lesser extent into overdrive and no breed that has neglected to follow suit by concentrating its efforts on identifying and proving and then breeding MOSTLY the best females within that breed has been able to keep up.
Now...having said that, I need to point out that along the dominant upward tragectory of the walker breed...they got off track. About ten years into things in the late 90's....they got carried away with tree power and lost a lot of their accuracy because of it...and most lines of walkers have never fully recovered from that.
That my redbone friends is our way back in. For all the other weaknesses the redbones have in competition....usually accuracy isnt one of them. We, as a breed have retained that accuracy and trust me...most guys hunting walkers know it...even though few will admit the that there is a shortage of it in their breed.
Its true on average the walkers have more drive than redbones....argue that if you want but ive seen it all too often...but with changes in breeding programs...we are gaining ground in that department. If we stay on track, set goals to consistently produce litters in higher percentages that are born with the ability it takes to win and get them into the hands of people that will compete with them...we can and will put the redbones back on top in competition circles.
Not everyone can produce high % litters with every cross... some may be to the point in their program they have to make an outcross to add or strengthen a week trait and in doing so it will shake up your average and probably knock down your %....but to get the traits you want...as a breeder you will have to do that from time to time...then get back to linebreeding to concentrate it and lock it into your line so it becomes a trait you expect to see in a high percentage of the pups you produce.
Look, this is a part of my breeding plan, it hasnt changed in the past 5 years since I took a hard look at this breed and said...if we ever want to see redbones on top again...we HAVE to change the way we are breeding. I see progress...maybe others dont...but I think we have things headed in the right direction.
Good Luck everyone.

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02-01-2016 11:13 PM

A.Berresford
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Registered: Oct 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 182

Hold on, I got to get another bag of popcorn.

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Moonlight Call Girl (Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Woody x Gr.Nt.Ch. Outlaw Billy Jean)

Moonlight Game Over (Gr.Nt.Ch. Outlaw G Man x Gr. Nt.Ch. Gold Ch. Laytons Classy Cali)

Outlaw Hank (Gr.Nt.Ch. Gr.Ch. Glisson's Outlaw Jesse James Jr x Gr.Nt.Ch. Outlaw Billy Jean)

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02-01-2016 11:31 PM

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ahallada
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2006
Location: California
Posts: 1867

Hold on there now, Cali x G-Man is about as line bred as you can get. Cali's father and G-Man are half brothers out of JJ Jr, and her grandma and G-Man's grandma are out of your BTK. Now as far as Cali herself, yes she is one of those "freaks" I was referring to above. I don't know where any of her littermates are and if they are still alive. So the outcross that created Cali was a low percentage cross.

Looking at their hunting styles, Brian Layton said it best, G-Man is right where Cali was when she was 2 years old. Same big hunt style, same strike, great locates, pressure tree dogs, and meat dogs. I couldn't match her with a better dog.

I'm picking up what you are putting down! Now go write that book!

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02-02-2016 12:42 AM

Tony Dominguez
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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: Jefferson,Tx
Posts: 1108

I'm glad I've got the huntin end of things & Allen/Shane have the breeding end of things, I'd get a head ache if I had to breed & hunt dogs... Lol

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Grnitech PKC CH Night Stalkin roxie
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Walker:
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02-02-2016 12:44 AM

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A.Berresford
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Registered: Oct 2014
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I'm going to breed a female pup I got from Shane to a male pup I got from Allen. That ought to blow your guys minds.

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02-02-2016 12:53 AM

Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

Im going to keep churning out the best pups I can...and making it a priority to get them in the most capable hands and hope it continues to pay off with more big winning red bones for everyone in the years to come.

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02-02-2016 01:15 AM

ahallada
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2006
Location: California
Posts: 1867

quote:
Originally posted by A.Berresford
I'm going to breed a female pup I got from Shane to a male pup I got from Allen. That ought to blow your guys minds.

I'm expecting a free pup from that cross! lol

Seriously though if you go back and look at some of the best crosses in the last 20 years, you will find many Burning Ben x Timber Jack and BTK X Timber Jack crosses. It brings together the best TC lines from Coffman's Joe, Famous Amos/Timber Chip, Ramblin Red Ace, Timber Chopper Jr, and Timber Scanning Radar. It's the complete package of TC breeding.

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02-02-2016 01:32 AM

jkhutch
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Location: West Central Indiana
Posts: 1318

I think that heavy line breeding is what has held this breed back for years. After all, aren't we all looking for that "Freak". Heck you even bought one Allen, and it's been your number winning dog in your kennel. If you look at the pedigrees of some of the biggest winning $KC dogs they are not line bred more of "winner" bred. I do agree you may get a lot of the "same" characteristics with line breeding. But I don't think the "same" redbone characteristics have been in very many $kc top twenties of the world,national, or superstakes finals lately. I know I would love to take 1 freak out of a litter, than 5 or 6 of that same ol stuff.

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02-02-2016 02:38 AM

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Hoosier Outlaw
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Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
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quote:
Originally posted by jkhutch
I think that heavy line breeding is what has held this breed back for years. After all, aren't we all looking for that "Freak". Heck you even bought one Allen, and it's been your number winning dog in your kennel. If you look at the pedigrees of some of the biggest winning $KC dogs they are not line bred more of "winner" bred. I do agree you may get a lot of the "same" characteristics with line breeding. But I don't think the "same" redbone characteristics have been in very many $kc top twenties of the world,national, or superstakes finals lately. I know I would love to take 1 freak out of a litter, than 5 or 6 of that same ol stuff.

I would agree in that linebreeding for many generations without trying to improve it by adding some better traits once in awhile is a dead end....and thats what happens to breeders who think what they have is the best and good enough. But outcrossing to get a freak has a very very low success rate...and most freaks rarely ever reproduce dogs like themselves. There will be a few exceptions...but i have never found enough to make me feel all that confident with one ...but I will try a few outcrosses to try to add traits...just think for a couple generations it will knock down the average. They just are not reliably repeatable. some may disagree....but why do we rarely ever see super freak world champions producing many other world champions?
If you line breed with specific goals on traits and use it correctly and then out cross every 3-4 generations to add new traits ...in the correct way, not just all willy nilly...you can improve and strengthen your line into something better with nearly every generation.

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02-02-2016 03:24 AM

Adam Wingler
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Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Western NC
Posts: 1529

Outcrosses of any sort logically always seemed to me as risky that one or more undesired traits of that other line would surface at the same or higher probability than the desired trait you are trying to add. However, One thing I expected when coming into reds is that lines have been better protected, meaning it was more about traits and less about just backing a GRNT female up to any GRNT male way back when that muddied up the water. The majority of the pedigrees I followed for so many years in the walker breed have now been lost in translation, I can't tell who's on first and what's on second most of the time.

Anyhow, my first sentence, explain your thoughts Allen, Shane, and anyone else. How do you not fear the 1-2 major holes 2-3 generations back won't take hold in place of what you wanted to add?

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02-02-2016 05:54 AM