Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Talala, Oklahoma
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No top hound gets that way without a hard hunter.

I have known a few that required very little "training," but none of them top out without hard hunting.

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i would take all 4 critters as they came along. nicking away a little at a time.

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Danny...jmo but if a fella has a young dog that wants to run all that junk i think there were some bad decisions made by the breeders in some of the crosses. Yes, i think the so called gamey dog wud be a handful to train but most of the dogs i have hunted over the past 35+ years or so seem to be bred right that they dont show much interest in venison, squirrels, etc skunks at night.....
i gotta believe thats a trait of the breeding decisions and is ten fold more valuable than the training stuff.

Like i said..no biggie either way but i think the right bred hound just needs an owner that gets in the timber.

Sincerely....pb

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Danny Glista
Let's say you have a top young natural that trees coon ahead of older dogs or splits alot,but yet hunted mostly by hisself at 16 months old and he start's to run all kind of trash but yet still does a great job when on a coon. Trash being possum,fox,deer and dillars and starts to run either of them on any given nite and will run maybe 2 or 3 of the listed critters on the same nite then goes off and trees a coon at the end.Which one would you start breaking them off with and why.If the trainor has no roll or choice to make,who makes that choice. So answer the ? and why if you would. I would like to hear from one thinks on this. Certainly one wouldn't let the top young super star continue on this path! List them in the order on which you would start with from 1 thru 4!There's always going to be times when the trainer has a choice to make or not make wether it's a super good natural or not. For those who are thinking a natural always runs just a coon,never seen it in my life time! I've never owned one that didn't need corrected along the way that made a top hound.Top hounds more times than not have a great desire to hunt and pursue game. Most know it as being real gamey. When he goes south on something other than wanted game,someone has to make a choice right or wrong. Would that be the trainer? JMO!! We all have them! Danny G.

---

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Possum, fox, deer and dillars??? {armadillo's??}

First one to stop would be deer...no brainer to me. On this list, deer are the animal that will take the dog the farthest, waste the most time, get the dog killed, lost or stolen and cost the owner the most money, so he's the first one I am taking out of the picture.
Next would be fox. Mr. Fox, red a little more so than gray, can cause almost as much trouble as deer, but they do generally go in a big circle so you have a little less chance of losing your dog.
Possum are easy, when a dog runs one of them he usually ends up in a scenario where you, the dog and the possum are all within 20 feet of each other and looking right at him. No question what the dog did and no question what to do about it.
Dillars????? if that really is an armadillo you are talking about...we don't have them here and I never hunted in an area that did so I have to recuse from commenting rather than give an irresponsible answer.

As to a few other animals...what I have experienced is that dogs break themselves off of skunks, so I don't worry about them. Either a dog will mess with one {1} or he just don't ever seem to do it. As to squirrels....I know this will enrage a few guys that really believe in the "squirrels moving at night" thing but, I don't believe gray or fox squirrels move at night, period. I own a lot of land and I like to bowhunt, in two different states and keep feeders with day/night cameras on them to watch the big game. No exaggeration, in the last five years I have looked at tens of thousands of trail camera pictures with squirrels all over the feeders during the day. But not a single {1}, not a one seen after dark. A very few flying squirrels, but not one single gray or fox squirrel yet to date. This causes me to say that all these guys that believe their dog tree 35 squirrels a night have something else going on that don't involve squirrels, but it might involve breeding.
I also don't believe nor have I ever seen a line of dogs that are born straight. Just like the squirrel thing, it is easy to claim but hard to prove. So far, I've been at this since 1978 and have yet to see proof of either. It is easy to swear you have seen big foot or the lizard man and there are about 42,000 recorded sightings of "black panthers" in America but that aint proof.

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Dellwood Fl.
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Break off as they come along....

For example, if he holes a dillo first, show him the error of his way... same w/ a possum, except as mentioned below..

Based upon experience:

1) armidillos are the easiest to break because you find them in a hole ( you catch them at it easier)- down here coon climb trees, VERY rarely going in a hole)

2) The next easiest is possums, once again, because you catch them at it... The reason I say its harder than a dillo is because possums climb and trigger the treeing instinct.. you have to be careful on how to correct because the dog has to know its in trouble for treeing the opossum and not for just treeing in general- I personally don't correct too much at a young age for treeing possums due to the possibility of sending the wrong message. I just don't reward them for treeing opossums... Most of the time the dog will figure it out when he gets praised for coon ( sometimes rewarded w/ fur) and not praised for possums.

3) Deer are the next easiest... Sometimes a big coon will run like a deer so I make sure to track the road to make sure I see running deer tracks, and beside them, the dog track. I HAVE NO PATIENCE FOR A DEER RUNNER. It's dangerous for the dog, makes for very long nights in the woods and will get you in trouble w/ landowners..

4) Fox- To me the hardest to break... you rarely catch them at it... they sometimes run in circles, sometimes leave the country, hard to see tracks, and a lot of time a dog will get tired of chasing the fox and "fall off" on a hot coon...

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It was just a hypathetical ? Not sayin that one has done so,just to see how one would approach on fixin the problem is all. Looks like everyone has thier own thoughts on what it takes to make a top hound that's for sure. Certainly a natural can make things easier but still has to be guided or as I call it trained at certain times. Seems like we all may handle it in different ways which is the method they are use to. Nothing wrong with that at all. Heck,who knows,I may be doing something that could be settin my youngsters back when I hunt them.If so,it certainly isn't jumping out at me and given me the what you do that for feeling. I think at one time or another,most do things with youngsters they wish they hadn't including me but we learn from that not to make the same mistake again! Later,Danny G.

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Location: Talala, Oklahoma
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quote:

---

Originally posted by Casey Bigelow
Break off as they come along....

For example, if he holes a dillo first, show him the error of his way... same w/ a possum, except as mentioned below..

Based upon experience:

1) armidillos are the easiest to break because you find them in a hole ( you catch them at it easier)- down here coon climb trees, VERY rarely going in a hole)

2) The next easiest is possums, once again, because you catch them at it... The reason I say its harder than a dillo is because possums climb and trigger the treeing instinct.. you have to be careful on how to correct because the dog has to know its in trouble for treeing the opossum and not for just treeing in general- I personally don't correct too much at a young age for treeing possums due to the possibility of sending the wrong message. I just don't reward them for treeing opossums... Most of the time the dog will figure it out when he gets praised for coon ( sometimes rewarded w/ fur) and not praised for possums.

3) Deer are the next easiest... Sometimes a big coon will run like a deer so I make sure to track the road to make sure I see running deer tracks, and beside them, the dog track. I HAVE NO PATIENCE FOR A DEER RUNNER. It's dangerous for the dog, makes for very long nights in the woods and will get you in trouble w/ landowners..

4) Fox- To me the hardest to break... you rarely catch them at it... they sometimes run in circles, sometimes leave the country, hard to see tracks, and a lot of time a dog will get tired of chasing the fox and "fall off" on a hot coon...

---

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Registered: Jan 2010
Location: indiana
Posts: 398

I believe you have to have a dog that naturally gets it to start with. I also believe that there are those that can get one started and there are those that can take a dog to the next level. How many times have you seen or heard of one that was ok then traded /sold and all of a sudden turns into something special in a different persons hands.

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Registered: Sep 2005
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Glista you ole outlaw, what kind of stew do you do you have cooking now? LOL

I think the one thing that everyone agrees with on this post, is that you have to have one that has that little extra to begin with.

I have a question for you Danny, do you think Gauge was made the way he was by a trainer, or he had that little bit extra to begin with and just lots of woods time allowed him to blossom? You traveling the distance that you did, and paying the amount that you did for a young hound the age that he was answers that for me

I think the true natural, or maybe even consider them a freak, are born with a natural preference for a coon and have a born desire to want to tree. They have very little to any trash problems, and will end up weaning themselves from the little trash they may mess with. They don't go backwards, and the more you hunt them the better they keep getting. Yes they are the exception, that is for darn sure!

I definitely think it is more the dog than the trainer!

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quote:

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Originally posted by recon
In my humble opinion, people take too much credit for "training" a coondog, when in actuality the dog became what he is not due to our "training", but rather in spite of it.

Not including the pre-hunting training such as socializing, leading, loading, coming, and limited exposure to the desired game, there is very little a "trainer" can do to make a coondog, other than take him to the woods. That is where a dogs genetics take over and they either have what it takes, or they don't. Usually when "trainers" get involved, they cause more harm than good.

The best thing we can do to make a coondog is train ourselves to learn to have patience while the dogs are training themselves. Impatience causes us to feel the need to "train", and that is usually where a good dog gets ruined.

I firmly believe that there would be more good dogs if most of us stopped trying to train them. There have been far more good dogs ruined due to training, than good dogs being the product of training.

---

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Before I spill my beans,please answer one ? honestly!!! Have you ever hunted a young hound with a shock collar??? Answer yes or no! Don't need anything other than that!! Thanks ole buddy!! Danny G.

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The dog has to have the abilities or potential there but the rest of it is deffinatly up to the trainer

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We're on the same page!! Danny G.

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I'm probably going to raise some eyebrows here but these are some things I do that most don't and that fine, to each their own. I never tie a pup or young started dog at the tree. Why, you ask? Because you can't force a dog to do what it doesn't want to and if it bothers the dog at the tree to the point of aggression, then you have another problem. I have no problem correcting a young dog on the tree once they start treeing coon. Now we're not talking intense correction just the basic scolding or maybe switching. Tree dogs are born just like a beagle is born to run rabbits. I've had dogs that I honestly believe you couldn't break them from treeing. Some Jet bred dogs I've owned were like that. I don't get too excited if a dog doesn't start early, even if it's littermates start earlier, it's how they finish. Patients is the most valuable tool we possess when taking dogs through their early life. We should be able to tell a lot about a dog even before we attempt taking them to the woods. If they have it in them, it should come out, sometimes sooner, sometimes later. Don't waste too much time on a young dog that has been given a fair chance and shows no interest. I'm not saying that dog won't eventually make something, just noting I want to reproduce it's likeness. Again, like said before, if it works for you, keep it up. I've heard some outstanding ideas on here and today I turned 62 years old and I'm not afraid to change if it works. Always keep an open mind and never think another bloodline can't help you or whoop your butt in the woods, saw it happen too many times. Have a great day.....Ron

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Excellent post Mr. Moore...I agree, the day I quit learning is the day I quit hunting.

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Registered: Feb 2007
Location: BURLINGTON, NC
Posts: 368

quote:

---

Originally posted by Danny Glista
Let's say you have a top young natural that trees coon ahead of older dogs or splits alot,but yet hunted mostly by hisself at 16 months old and he start's to run all kind of trash but yet still does a great job when on a coon. Trash being possum,fox,deer and dillars and starts to run either of them on any given nite and will run maybe 2 or 3 of the listed critters on the same nite then goes off and trees a coon at the end.Which one would you start breaking them off with and why.If the trainor has no roll or choice to make,who makes that choice. So answer the ? and why if you would. I would like to hear from one thinks on this. Certainly one wouldn't let the top young super star continue on this path! List them in the order on which you would start with from 1 thru 4!There's always going to be times when the trainer has a choice to make or not make wether it's a super good natural or not. For those who are thinking a natural always runs just a coon,never seen it in my life time! I've never owned one that didn't need corrected along the way that made a top hound.Top hounds more times than not have a great desire to hunt and pursue game. Most know it as being real gamey. When he goes south on something other than wanted game,someone has to make a choice right or wrong. Would that be the trainer? JMO!! We all have them! Danny G.

---

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Well referring back to the original question "does a trainer make a top hound?"

To me a "top hound" is one that fires off like a rocket with an overwhelming drive to hunt, is a honest first strike dog, hunts fast and smart with coon finding sense, and is a superior track dog that can pick the right tree quickly and accurately with a first locate he can be treed on. I'm not sure I know of anyone that can TRAIN one to do all of that, beyond giving him the opportunity by taking him to the woods. It's in him or it's not!!!! But, if anyone knows how to TRAIN a dog to do all that, please PM with your secret!!!

In my opinion most of the "training" people do is not "training a top hound", but simply tweaking a hound to your liking.

JMO, but top hounds are a product of their breeding, then hunted to their full potential. You cannot train the traits that make one a top hound.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Danny Glista
Before I spill my beans,please answer one ? honestly!!! Have you ever hunted a young hound with a shock collar??? Answer yes or no! Don't need anything other than that!! Thanks ole buddy!! Danny G.

---

Let's back up a step, why do we ever consider putting a shock collar on a dog? Probably because that dog gave us a reason to. If that reason has been given, is that dog the caliber you refer to in your original post? Maybe it is how we are defining or interpreting "natural".

To answer your question, it depended on the dog. Some have never worn a shock collar, some did. The ones that did, earned that privilege by running fast game multiple times before that shock collar ever saw their neck. The ones that have never worn a shock collar also earned that privilege by not messing with fast game or if they did it was brief enough and seldom enough to not think about putting one on them.

I will say, of the dogs that earned the privilege of wearing the electric, none ever made the caliber of hound that I am interpreting you described in your original post They may have went on to make above average coon tree'rs, and have big time hunt, but not the type hound I interpret from the description in your original post.

I have been fortunate enough to have been around one of those naturals we speak of in this post (not owned by me) from the time they started on through till they got older. A shock collar never saw their neck, no cage coon, no net, no human intervention other than just hunting. I truly believe those kind are more a freak of nature, and are very few and far between. If one back slides, or exhibits behavior warranting wearing that electric, then are they the type or caliber of hound referred to in your original post, even if they have shown above average coon treeing ability?

You can dig that couple of dollars out now and buy that cup of coffee

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I get what you are saying but a hound that needs no, nill, none, notta bit of human intervention seems out there.

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Registered: Apr 2006
Location: DEEP FORK VALLEY, OKLAHOMA
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some folks like to take credit for making a top dog and some don't mind just saying they own one, its what ever floats your boat. Fact is, if you think your the great training wizard then just get on facebook and buy you one of them 2 1/2 year old $150 dogs and go make him the "next big thing"..................didn't think so

anybody know where any of these gooder'uns are?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Jones
Fact is, if you think your the great training wizard then just get on facebook and buy you one of them 2 1/2 year old $150 dogs and go make him the "next big thing"..................didn't think so

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Danny , cant wait to hear about that hound in the hunts Get on in there and put it on em son ! We'll be watching

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Location: Southwest Ohio
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quote:

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Originally posted by Ron Jackson
I get what you are saying but a hound that needs no, nill, none, notta bit of human intervention seems out there.

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That is why I am referring to it more as a freak. Seeing is believing is all I can say, & I was fortunate enough to witness one of those first hand. We base our opinions on our experiences, & my experience with what I witnessed determined my interpretation of "natural". I think it boils down to the inevitable Human Interpretation factor of what a "natural" is.

The more common one in my eyes (and what I think Danny is referring to) is the ones which are well above average. They may not be the exceptional freak, but will require some, all be it very little human intervention. Yes, they all have holes/weaknesses, but their strengths override those weaknesses far more often than not. What little human intervention they do require is minimal, & seldom repeated.

All that wind aside, I still think it is more the dog than the trainer

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Home of:
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Gone but not forgotten:
Nt Ch Fanny's Midnite Blue Annie - aka Sodie Pop R.I.P. - I will miss you old girl

Nt Ch Becky’s Midnite Blue Hank - R.I.P. Old Boy, thank you for the memories

Gr Nt Ch S&E's Midnite Lite Blue Snow (Co-Owned with my good friend Harry Eidenier) - We had a blast following you ole girl!

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Vic Stoll


All that wind aside, I still think it is more the dog than the trainer [/B]

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