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msinc
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Registered: Oct 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2633

"UKC already chimed in..."

They must have jumped back on here and deleted that post...I cant find it now. What did UKC have to say about this???? It is a good question and a good thread, we should all be able to learn something regarding this issue. It doesn't happen very often, thank god, but it seems like these things that are rare in occurrence are the very ones that causes the guys involved the most grief.

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06-01-2015 11:24 PM

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rthompson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: sw mo
Posts: 971

Score and judge what is seen not hear'd only fair when it says if aggressor is unknown its talking about walking in to a fight in progress.

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06-01-2015 11:35 PM

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msinc
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Registered: Oct 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2633

quote:
Originally posted by rthompson
Score and judge what is seen not hear'd only fair when it says if aggressor is unknown its talking about walking in to a fight in progress.

Not exactly...do you have to see a dog quit the track in order to minus him???? There are some things the judge just never gets a chance to see. If two dogs are on the tree and there is a fight...I certainly do not have to see it. I get that this post is talking about four dogs, but a lot of people read this, especially younger hunters and really anyone trying to learn, could follow your advice and believe they can only act when they see something.

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06-01-2015 11:49 PM

DFred
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Ohio
Posts: 572

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
"UKC already chimed in..."

They must have jumped back on here and deleted that post...I cant find it now. What did UKC have to say about this???? It is a good question and a good thread, we should all be able to learn something regarding this issue. It doesn't happen very often, thank god, but it seems like these things that are rare in occurrence are the very ones that causes the guys involved the most grief.

What was meant by that is UKC�s official stance has already been made. It was covered in the Advisor in the past and I have posted the quote early in this thread. I'm not saying we are beating a dead horse because I feel there is always room for discussion. I posted the "official" answer and then it was asked for again. I'm just saying if you didn't read it the first time then keep waiting.

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06-01-2015 11:52 PM

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rthompson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: sw mo
Posts: 971

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
Not exactly...do you have to see a dog quit the track in order to minus him???? There are some things the judge just never gets a chance to see. If two dogs are on the tree and there is a fight...I certainly do not have to see it. I get that this post is talking about four dogs, but a lot of people read this, especially younger hunters and really anyone trying to learn, could follow your advice and believe they can only act when they see something.

this post is not about a dog quiting a track in the case of a fight two dogs treed dog three comes and cleans house and leaves and is never heard openin you dont know he is there do you still scratch the two that got whooped??? You have no idea what happened judge whats seen in a fight.

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06-02-2015 12:13 AM

bones
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2003
Location: KINGFIELD, MAINE
Posts: 481

question, if you heard the fight weren't you close enough to get in there and see before it was over? And were any or all dogs showing any aggrestion at that time? Here if they are still all stiff legging it around or growling they are going to get scratched

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06-02-2015 12:21 AM

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rthompson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: sw mo
Posts: 971

quote:
Originally posted by bones
question, if you heard the fight weren't you close enough to get in there and see before it was over? And were any or all dogs showing any aggrestion at that time? Here if they are still all stiff legging it around or growling they are going to get scratched

get the coonhound advisor!! NO.

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06-02-2015 12:40 AM

msinc
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Registered: Oct 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2633

quote:
Originally posted by bones
question, if you heard the fight weren't you close enough to get in there and see before it was over? And were any or all dogs showing any aggrestion at that time? Here if they are still all stiff legging it around or growling they are going to get scratched

You DO NOT have to see a dog fight to scratch the dogs involved. Scratch aggressor only, if known, scratch all involved if not known. Now, after the fact dogs walking around stiff legged, etc. doesn't mean that dog was involved. Growling is not necessarily interfering with another dog. You could just be seeing a dog that was a "witness" and is now wrung up over it. Just like you never put them back on tree to see what happens. After the fact is after the fact and it don't count, unless they all get into it right here in front of you.

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06-02-2015 12:54 AM

berger
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Lockridge Iowa
Posts: 2848

quote:
Originally posted by bones
question, if you heard the fight weren't you close enough to get in there and see before it was over? And were any or all dogs showing any aggrestion at that time? Here if they are still all stiff legging it around or growling they are going to get scratched

Not necessarily. Years ago soon after I started hunting I was hunting 2 hounds. They were intense up on the tree type dogs that moved around the tree. I was standing less then 50' from just listening to them treed when a fight broke out flipped my light on and it was already over and they were both treeing. It was over in a split second and never seen aggression before or after hunting them together. They probably made a hundred plus trees before and after together and never heard a squabble again. Went in never tied them up, shown the tree leashed them up on a double coupler and led them off. Not a growl no hackled hairs or tail all cocked up they were just as friendly as could be. Their are accidental fights or squabbles but if it is only a split second doesn't mean that they are mean. A mean dog or trouble maker it won't last for just a split second. So if a basketball player gives you an accidental elbow in the face once when coming down from getting a rebound does that make him a mean or dirty basketball player even though he has played thousands of minutes?

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06-02-2015 01:05 AM

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tobyj
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2015
Location:
Posts: 24

quote:
Originally posted by berger
Not necessarily. Years ago soon after I started hunting I was hunting 2 hounds. They were intense up on the tree type dogs that moved around the tree. I was standing less then 50' from just listening to them treed when a fight broke out flipped my light on and it was already over and they were both treeing. It was over in a split second and never seen aggression before or after hunting them together. They probably made a hundred plus trees before and after together and never heard a squabble again. Went in never tied them up, shown the tree leashed them up on a double coupler and led them off. Not a growl no hackled hairs or tail all cocked up they were just as friendly as could be. Their are accidental fights or squabbles but if it is only a split second doesn't mean that they are mean. A mean dog or trouble maker it won't last for just a split second. So if a basketball player gives you an accidental elbow in the face once when coming down from getting a rebound does that make him a mean or dirty basketball player even though he has played thousands of minutes?

i agree dont give these title chasers any more leverage gettin dogs scratched with so called judgement calls i was winnin the hi scorin cast in a large ukc hunt years ago when a non workin dog jumped on my gyps back at the tree she slung her head back breifly no teeth and the second and second dogs handler got all others to have her scratched pretty convenient for him now hi scorin dog of the hunt big article in bloodlines best stud dog in the country now pitiful!!! 4 people know the truth about that nite though.use common sense guys its amazin people will trade their self worth for a ten dollar trophy

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06-02-2015 02:06 AM

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bones
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2003
Location: KINGFIELD, MAINE
Posts: 481

What I meant was if two or more dogs are still sparing or jockying so called they would get scratch . Any dog attempting to tree would stay. And the rule does say if known if you see it call it, plain and simple.

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06-02-2015 12:57 PM

Allen / UKC
Administrator

Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9282

Re: dog fights

quote:
Originally posted by wrinkletreeknls
4 dog cast 3 dogs struck and treed, fight breaks out, arrive at tree, all 4 dogs are there.....scratch whole cast? Back of score card says scratch all dogs involved when aggressors not known...,settling a conversation among freinds, lets hear it, would love official ukc ruling so a ukc response would be great

DFred posted a copied response in the fourth or fifth post down from the top that covers UKC's position. In short; when there's more than two dogs it sometimes becomes difficult to determine who all was involved. Doesn't mean you can never scratch a dog for fighting when there are more than two at the tree. For further reference please refer to mentioned post.

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06-02-2015 01:05 PM

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swamp1
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Registered: Aug 2012
Location:
Posts: 930

Re: Re: ran into hunter

quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Prince
I agree. Anyone knowingly hunting a mean dog in the hunts is a cheater and poor sportsman. They obviously don't care about other hunters or their dogs .These dogs should be put down or at the very least spayed or neuterd and hunted alone

good luck with that, they breed them for that down here. several on the board ads for stud right now. thats why i always keep me a cujo for them,and yes i hunt him alone with a xception of when i hunt with them world beater killers. why they keep breeding this crap and selling it is beyond me, but i keep 1 0ne just 4 that.

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06-04-2015 05:49 PM

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shadinc
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 3468

quote:
Originally posted by berger
Not necessarily. Years ago soon after I started hunting I was hunting 2 hounds. They were intense up on the tree type dogs that moved around the tree. I was standing less then 50' from just listening to them treed when a fight broke out flipped my light on and it was already over and they were both treeing. It was over in a split second and never seen aggression before or after hunting them together. They probably made a hundred plus trees before and after together and never heard a squabble again. Went in never tied them up, shown the tree leashed them up on a double coupler and led them off. Not a growl no hackled hairs or tail all cocked up they were just as friendly as could be. Their are accidental fights or squabbles but if it is only a split second doesn't mean that they are mean. A mean dog or trouble maker it won't last for just a split second. So if a basketball player gives you an accidental elbow in the face once when coming down from getting a rebound does that make him a mean or dirty basketball player even though he has played thousands of minutes?

I can see where you could accidently elbow somebody in a basketball game. How do you accidently bite somebody? Unless he sneaks his hand in the middle of your sandwich without you seeing him.

Last edited by shadinc on 06-04-2015 at 10:38 PM

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06-04-2015 07:56 PM

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walkerman75
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2009
Location: berkeley springs w va
Posts: 448

you have to have aggresion an interferance to scratch a dog for fighting.. so if you got a dog all stiff legged an growling an the other dog is trying to tree but cant get to tree becuz of the other dog .. aint that both qualitys needed for scratching...

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06-05-2015 07:12 AM

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msinc
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Registered: Oct 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2633

quote:
Originally posted by shadinc
I can see where you could accidently elbow somebody in a basketball game. How do you accidently bite somebody? Unless he sneaks his hand in the middle of your sandwich without you seeing him.

Saying that a dog is not mean because he only accidently bit another dog for a second is like one man busting another one right dead smack square in the mouth and knocking him out...then saying he isn't violent, it was an accident that only lasted a second. If he was really mean he would have kept on plowing the dude after he was down.
Sorry guys, there is no "accidental" aggressiveness.
Yes, if one dog is prancing around stiff legged and glassy eyed between a tree and the other dogs that want to get on it and tree that is interference.

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06-05-2015 12:16 PM

yadkintar
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Used to when we had non hunting judges on the ntch & Grntch cast the judge would say y'all stay here and keep your lights out I will be back in a minute then a lot of times the handler with the bad dog would withdraw I still if I am in a cast we are having trouble at the tree will do this its called judging it's called being in control of your cast if you are in the right most moh will be behind you .

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06-05-2015 01:18 PM

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msinc
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Registered: Oct 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2633

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Used to when we had non hunting judges on the ntch & Grntch cast the judge would say y'all stay here and keep your lights out I will be back in a minute then a lot of times the handler with the bad dog would withdraw I still if I am in a cast we are having trouble at the tree will do this its called judging it's called being in control of your cast if you are in the right most moh will be behind you .

I would a lot rather catch the dog and write him up than fire a warning shot so the handler can withdraw and take his mean dog someplace else....that is called judging. What you describe is called "giving him another chance."

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06-05-2015 02:29 PM

Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

I have seen dogs that will "warn" another dog to stay away from them or to stop pushing/shouldering them or to get out of their face. Some people call this face barking. If the other dogs leave them alone and mind their own business they are little angels. Is this a "mean dog"?

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06-05-2015 02:37 PM

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msinc
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Location: Maryland
Posts: 2633

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
I have seen dogs that will "warn" another dog to stay away from them or to stop pushing/shouldering them or to get out of their face. Some people call this face barking. If the other dogs leave them alone and mind their own business they are little angels. Is this a "mean dog"?

If he's doing what you describe probably not...but, that doesn't prevent him form getting scratched if the judge see's it at a certain time. If it just appears he's the one doing the face barking and the other dog, the one you say is mean, takes the hint and leaves the tree...the "angel" gets written up.

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06-05-2015 02:59 PM

shadinc
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Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 3468

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
I have seen dogs that will "warn" another dog to stay away from them or to stop pushing/shouldering them or to get out of their face. Some people call this face barking. If the other dogs leave them alone and mind their own business they are little angels. Is this a "mean dog"?

Yes this is a mean dog. One that wants the tree to himself. Do you threaten everyone that bumps into you in a crowded place. That's where the saying "Mines not mean but he don't take no s**t off no other dog" come from. To get along in society, you have to take a certain amount of stuff. I had a fellow tell me, on this forum, that I was complaining about mean dogs because mine didn't have the "nads" to stay. They shouldn't need nads to stay. A 3 month old pup should be able to stay on a tree with any dog.

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06-05-2015 03:00 PM

Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

I am talking about one that doesn't want the tree to themselves, they just don't want another dog trying to push or run them off of a tree. A three month old pup should also learn that they can't bite/chew on another dog's ears while that dog is trying to tree. And yes, I will complain or say something to someone that bumps/pushes me or causes me to spill what I am holding in a crowded place. But I don't think that I am mean. I will also honk my horn if someone cuts in front of me when I am driving.

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06-05-2015 03:15 PM

shadinc
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Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 3468

Nobody thinks they're mean.

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06-05-2015 03:17 PM

Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

I guess that is where the problem lies. No one thinks they have a mean dog either. Dogs are just like people. Everyone draws the line at a different point on the scale of :
downright mean......little bit grouchy.....ok until pushed....just right.....little bit timid.....too timid... It sure is hard to legislate or make a rule about "mean dogs" when everyone has a different definition of just what "mean" is.

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06-05-2015 03:26 PM

shadinc
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 3468

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
I am talking about one that doesn't want the tree to themselves, they just don't want another dog trying to push or run them off of a tree. A three month old pup should also learn that they can't bite/chew on another dog's ears while that dog is trying to tree. And yes, I will complain or say something to someone that bumps/pushes me or causes me to spill what I am holding in a crowded place. But I don't think that I am mean. I will also honk my horn if someone cuts in front of me when I am driving.

You don't own the road, but even if you did you should be courteous enough to let somebody change lanes if they want to. I drive a 20 yard dump truck 10 hours a day and never honk my horn. Maybe that's why it's so hard for me to win a night hunt; I don't honk my horn enough.

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06-05-2015 03:35 PM

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