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Fisher13
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2012
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 2027

quote:
Originally posted by RLenhart
Curious about this comment; I do the exact opposite, I try to get a coon treed right after correcting to enforce the notion that COON is good DEER is bad. JMO

Dogs learn through repetition and consistency. By taking a pup and dropping it on deer 5 or 6 times in a row, it allows us to gain repetition and consistency. Now the key here is to use only a moderate correction. I tend to increase the stimulation later in the lesson rather then early.

If I drop a pup, on a deer then coon, then deer then coon, we lose some of the repetition, and we run the risk of the dog running a deer when we're trying to run a coon.

It also important to pay attention to the body language of the dog, some won't need 5 drops but only 2.

My point is this, because consistency and repetition is so difficult to practice, I try incorporate it whenever possible. However the body language of the dog, still comes before any goals of training for that session.

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"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
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Last edited by Fisher13 on 05-06-2015 at 01:36 PM

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05-06-2015 01:26 PM

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msinc
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Registered: Oct 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2633

quote:
Originally posted by RLenhart
Curious about this comment; I do the exact opposite, I try to get a coon treed right after correcting to enforce the notion that COON is good DEER is bad. JMO

I know several guys that have always done the same thing. I have to say that I never had much luck doing it and abandoned the practice many years ago. I just couldn't get good results out of trying to put a dog right on a coon soon after stopping a deer or fox race. What I found was that usually the dog ended up back on another deer or fox and I ended up back to square one.
I have had much better results with the good old "one at a time" method...as soon as they start running off game we are done with the coons until I am comfortable with their mind being off the junk.
Not that it cant happen, but the theory of the dog realizing, as you say, coon is good deer is bad, is kind of like putting both in front of the dog and saying choose. It can happen in the woods and sooner or later it will, but it's probably best not to test the dog when you are trying to teach him something. Especially when that something goes against his nature.

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05-06-2015 03:14 PM

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Jason Baldwin
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2011
Location: Rockmart, Ga.
Posts: 2652

Don't try to break him from everything at the same time. One step at a time. Start with the deer. Use that shocker the way they explained and get the deer totally fixed first and then move on to something else. Don't try to fight more than one battle at a time with the dog.

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05-06-2015 03:30 PM

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Jason Baldwin
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2011
Location: Rockmart, Ga.
Posts: 2652

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
I know several guys that have always done the same thing. I have to say that I never had much luck doing it and abandoned the practice many years ago. I just couldn't get good results out of trying to put a dog right on a coon soon after stopping a deer or fox race. What I found was that usually the dog ended up back on another deer or fox and I ended up back to square one.
I have had much better results with the good old "one at a time" method...as soon as they start running off game we are done with the coons until I am comfortable with their mind being off the junk.
Not that it cant happen, but the theory of the dog realizing, as you say, coon is good deer is bad, is kind of like putting both in front of the dog and saying choose. It can happen in the woods and sooner or later it will, but it's probably best not to test the dog when you are trying to teach him something. Especially when that something goes against his nature.

This is where I question the notion that overall these dogs were breeding are improving any at all. Why isn't treeing coons their "nature" ? Why do we have to beg them to tree coons and train and train and train and train and train but running deer just comes as natural as breathing ?

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For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John3:16

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05-06-2015 03:32 PM

msinc
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Registered: Oct 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2633

quote:
Originally posted by Jason Baldwin
This is where I question the notion that overall these dogs were breeding are improving any at all. Why isn't treeing coons their "nature" ? Why do we have to beg them to tree coons and train and train and train and train and train but running deer just comes as natural as breathing ?

This is a good question, but it's not that simple...you have to drop back to the reason why a hound does what he does. I am by no means an expert on this part of the issue, but as I understand it when a hound runs a track it is because the particular scent he is running does something to the nerves in his nose that run to his brain. Different scents "excite" the dog more or less according to the animal and how it causes his nose/brain to react.
Here is where the problem comes in...a deer is about as exciting as it gets to a hound. The raccoon is about 5th on the list. It has nothing to do with the amount of smell as the skunk, certainly the "most" for scent is way down the list.
So, the problem in regards to breeding a dog that prefers coons over deer or fox is simply that by the time you reduced their nose power {maybe that's a bad way to say it, because it's really a matter of nose/brain excitement level} to the point they are no longer interested in a deer or fox the dog probably would only be just barely able to even want to pick up the scent of a coon. Remember, it's not about how much they can smell it's about how much the smell excites them into action.
the other part of your question, regarding how hard it is and how much training it takes to get a dog to handle a coon vs. how natural it is to run a deer...maybe natural isn't the right word...maybe "easy" and "exciting" are better ways to say what happens when a dog runs a deer.
There is just so much exciting scent there and the deer is running so fast. The dog doesn't have to figure or work out the track...it's right in front of him like a yellow brick road saying "come on, as fast as you can, lets have some fun!!!!" You don't even have to stop and bark up a tree until the idiot gets here...we can just keep on going and having fun!!!!
There are a lot of comparisons between 18 year old boys and playboy bunnies that might help you to understand this whole preference of deer over coons too, but I don't need another ban hammer. You probably get it anyways.

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05-06-2015 04:14 PM

firebird
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 338

quote:
Originally posted by Jason Baldwin
This is where I question the notion that overall these dogs were breeding are improving any at all. Why isn't treeing coons their "nature" ? Why do we have to beg them to tree coons and train and train and train and train and train but running deer just comes as natural as breathing ?

Id think that there are as many dogs run on deer, fox, coyote, cat, bear etc. as coon. They all come from the same ancestors not too long ago.

When I look for a dog to cross i don't care if its a big game blood or coonhound blood I look at its traits. I decide what it runs and break it off what i don't want it hunting.

I also think its pretty hard for a dog not to run any stinky animal that was just in front of them. Deer seeming to leave the most scent. I still have issues with some old dogs silently and slowly trailing fresh deer. They know what they are doing but can't resist it, but they do react fast when i correct them. And I can say I also have a "check dog" as described earlier lol.

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05-06-2015 04:16 PM