Registered: Jun 2003
Location: North GA
Posts: 14388

Ive never saw to many judges try and cheat. I mean really a judge is just a score keeping time clock watcher. Everything can be decided by the other handlers by voting. Ainy none of it gonna happen anyhow but I guess we can talk about it. Make any changes like that and you can kiss the local hjnts good by.

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Michael Ghorley

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Registered: Jan 2014
Location: York,SC
Posts: 100

I wouldn't say they necessarily try and cheat but rather let some things slide during a hunt that it appears they assume others don't know the rules. I just think if everyone was certified, it would produce more judges and create an environment of accountability and eliminate the ignorance of all. Just my opinion from my experience in the hunts

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Registered: May 2008
Location: Gillett, Pa
Posts: 1861

it would make more sense to require all hunters to pass a basic multiple choice rule test before being allowed to compete in the first place

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Registered: Nov 2008
Location: Slater MO.
Posts: 118

I like your idea. We would all benefit having handlers trained and certified before being allowed to compete in a UKC sponsored hunt.

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Last edited by scoham on 05-06-2015 at 02:04 AM

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Registered: Jan 2014
Location: York,SC
Posts: 100

I even agree with that, but imagine if you went to a hunt where everyone there were "certified judges", it sort of makes a level playing field, then again its each person's responsibility to know the rules

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Registered: Oct 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2633

Not real sure what you are trying to fix here...Getting cheated because you don't know the rules is one thing...flat slap all out cheating is another. I believe that anytime you can better educate folks about the rules and procedures it makes for a better situation all the way around...that said, I do not see how being certified will stop a group of "friends" from awarding plus points for a slick tree, plus points for a coon that "crossed out" and is now three trees over and 40 feet away, plus points for that albino coon with a mangy tail, etc. In the last three hunts I was in I judged the casts and was asked to allow handlers to keep dogs on a leash while the clock was running, circle a 4 inch diameter 10 foot tall holly tree because it had a little nest that a bluebird made, minus two dogs because they met their handlers {and got back on the tree.}
Dogs moved up in points on the tree when the one with 125 left...etc. You can certify people until they are blue in the face but it will not stop blatant cheating. I could tell by the surprise looks when I said no to all of the above that these guys had not only done things this way before, they truly believed it was the thing to do.

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Registered: Oct 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2633

quote:

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Originally posted by Eric Lingerfelt
I wouldn't say they necessarily try and cheat but rather let some things slide during a hunt that it appears they assume others don't know the rules. I just think if everyone was certified, it would produce more judges and create an environment of accountability and eliminate the ignorance of all. Just my opinion from my experience in the hunts

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Registered: Jan 2014
Location: York,SC
Posts: 100

That is true!!! The judge basically makes or breaks the hunt because it doesn't matter how certified a person is that is not going to make them honest, the certification process would just make everyone at least, hopefully know the rules and eliminate alot of arguments, you can argue with a judge but if he calls it by the rules, you have nothing to say

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Registered: Nov 2008
Location: Slater MO.
Posts: 118

There's a good reason. To provide the new and young hunters with the right tools and a base standard of good sportsmanship.

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"Every dog receives training each time their put in the woods whether intended or not."
"I gave up the need to be right along time ago"

Last edited by scoham on 05-06-2015 at 02:44 AM

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Registered: Jan 2014
Location: York,SC
Posts: 100

Cheating is an action deliberately performed to gain an advantage."letting it slide" is an action that may not create a gain of advantage. I agree with you, call it by the book, but when a cast consists of a couple buddies, what you think is going to happen?

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Registered: Oct 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2633

quote:

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Originally posted by Eric Lingerfelt
Cheating is an action deliberately performed to gain an advantage."letting it slide" is an action that may not create a gain of advantage. I agree with you, call it by the book, but when a cast consists of a couple buddies, what you think is going to happen?

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Last edited by msinc on 05-06-2015 at 03:13 AM

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Registered: Jul 2006
Location: Carrollton,Missouri
Posts: 947

Judging and guiding isn't a priveledge. Id rather not do either. When you judge youll have one guy in the cast that hates to take a minus and don't dare say his dog is minused before he says it. The certification would be one way id get out of judging. I don't get paid for it why should I go out of my way to get certified.

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Brian Davis
Carrollton,Mo.64633
1(660)542-0932

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Registered: Aug 2014
Location:
Posts: 780

The rules as written foster "cheating". Why should rules be written with so many gray areas? Go back and read any rules post, you get 10 different answers. This is from guys sitting in front of their computer WITH a rule book in their hand.
I have hunted in cast with "Master of hounds", who have made some of the worst calls and mistakes. They are "certified" correct?

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Registered: Dec 2006
Location: Springfield, Ga.
Posts: 4252

if folks use the UKC supported, written, and official interputation of said rules, the ADVISOR, most all of these questions and worrying about judges is taken care of. It does start at rule one and runs to the end. It is a great tool to use in learning the rules and how to apply them. Good judges and MOH's have and will continue to use it to stay abreast of the rule meanings and applications.

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

Well if you think being a judge is bad you should be a bench show judge and master of hounds you do the bench show your trying to do your paper work and somebody's wanting to know why there dog didn't win or wanting there win slip or wanting to enter the hunt then you start taking entrees for the hunt get everybody together for the draw let everybody see you do it in plain sight then if sombody don't draw the way they wanted it's rigged then when they come back in they are mad 4 different opinions of what happens you be be dr phill try and fix it then get that paper.work done clean the club house and go home judging is a piece of cake ( oh by the way I had to take a test to do all that !!!!)lol

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Registered: Oct 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2633

quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Johnson
if folks use the UKC supported, written, and official interputation of said rules, the ADVISOR, most all of these questions and worrying about judges is taken care of. It does start at rule one and runs to the end. It is a great tool to use in learning the rules and how to apply them. Good judges and MOH's have and will continue to use it to stay abreast of the rule meanings and applications.

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Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Burlington, CT
Posts: 1758

Threads like this always blows my mind!

When I see someone state that the judge isn't really a judge, but just a scorekeeper. Or that the majority of the cast really makes the decisions. Those statements are flat out wrong, and that way of thinking is much of the problem!!!

First of all there are only TWO instances when a vote should normally be taken. Scoring a tree and deciding to call time-out. Unless you have an uninformed judge and/or cast member, and every single decision is being questioned, and so it has to be voted on! Otherwise the rules only dictate two situations that a "majority" vote needs to be achieved.

Secondly, there are rules that require the judge to make a decision and use their discretion, throughout the rule book and almost every hunt... Are the dogs split treed or not, did that dog quit it's track and come in or not? Who's dog is and is not barking? Are those dogs treed or moving? Do we need to get closer or are we getting too close? These are not "committee" decisions and require an experienced and decisive judge. You want to ruin a cast??? Have a judge that can't make these kinds of decisions.

And thirdly, there are rules that are missed all the time, because folks don't bother to read or understand them. Here are some prime examples:

- people don't realize that a tree call after the five is up, is a automatic split tree.
- people forget to apply the one minute, every time dogs are cast or recast.
- people confuse the different KC rules on "quitting and coming in" versus "carrying a track"
- people don't know how to handle dogs that come into a tree, before or after judges arrival
- people can't remember when a dog can be or can't be recast, when leaving a split tree

Dogs make mistakes and so do handlers, that earn them minus points. But they don't like that, and when they don't understand why, they assume it's cheating. Or sometimes worse another dog "earns" minus points, but the judge ignorantly doesn't apply them. OR they apply them when they aren't earned! More often than not, it comes down to not knowing the rules.

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David Schmidt
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Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Burlington, CT
Posts: 1758

There are some more simple solutions to formal training or certification programs... how about we all just read the rules before we go to the woods?

For those of you that judge... when was the last time you read the back of the card???

I watch folks at hunts, and I can't remember the last time I saw someone read a card. Maybe they're doing homework, but I don't think so!

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David Schmidt
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Location: off the res.
Posts: 3416

Actually there are THREE situations that go directly to a vote
The third one is Whether or not dogs are treed on a previously scored tree. All other situations are the non-hunting judge's call and if questioned can only be overturned by a majority vote.

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Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Burlington, CT
Posts: 1758

I stand corrected...

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David Schmidt
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Posts: 3416

I forget the last one too, but it's there as a rule. I never had an argument about whether or not the tree had been scored before. Suppose it could happen.

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Registered: Nov 2008
Location: Slater MO.
Posts: 118

BTT

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"Every dog receives training each time their put in the woods whether intended or not."
"I gave up the need to be right along time ago"

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: East central Illinois.
Posts: 1702

More often then not, I don't see the judge as the problem.
The handlers need to have read the rules several times and spectated on a few casts before competing in a night hunt.
When the new handler decides they are ready to compete, they should expect to loose a few casts due to their many mistakes and lack of experience. (Loosing will happen)
I recently spectated on a cast where a new handler was trying to learn on the fly and figure out a way to be competitive at the same time. You could tell the new handler thought they were getting cheated. Everything was called and scored per the rules and no cheating took place. It made for an uncomfortable situation for the judge and others in the cast.
I've also been on a few casts with very experienced handlers. On those casts the judge is really nothing more than a score keeper. The dogs and their performance decides everything. Those are good casts.

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Registered: Dec 2006
Location: Springfield, Ga.
Posts: 4252

quote:

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Originally posted by msinc
I agree, the "Advisor" would be an even better tool if they would go ahead and update the thing...it has several interpretations in there that are no longer valid because of rule changes.
Anyone know how long it's been since that version was written???? Even better, anyone have any idea or heard any talk of actually doing an update to it????

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Robert " Rock" Johnson

Johnson Creek Kennels
home of:
UKC Grand Nite Champion "PR" Yadkin River Addkis. Deceased 12/11/2016 RIP

2009/2010/2011/2012 AKC GA. State Leader and Supreme Grand Nite Champion Yadkin River Addkis

2010 ACHA Georgia State Champion Grand Nite Champion Yadkin River Addkis

PKC Champion Yadkin River Addkis

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Registered: Jan 2009
Location: berkeley springs w va
Posts: 448

you only have the one min rule everytime all the dogs are recast togeather.. if you have a dog out on track an you recast you only have 3 barks

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