Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Rossville Indiana
Posts: 66

I think neither one would win the nite hunt. The win would go to dog C. Dog C is the Natural with Nurturing trainer.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kevin Deboy
I think neither one would win the nite hunt. The win would go to dog C. Dog C is the Natural with Nurturing trainer.

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Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Rossville Indiana
Posts: 66

quote:

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Originally posted by NiteHeat
ZING!

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Registered: Dec 2012
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 2027

quote:

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Originally posted by john Duemmer
So dog B does some winnin because his handler has put in the time, ya know what happens next? ......Dog B gets bred, and thats a shame because he probably wont produce any naturals like dog A might and the cycle of mediocrity continues. Nothing a dog has been taught will pass to its offspring.
The only way the percentage of naturals born in a litter will increase is if the dogs that require alot of time and training are not bred.
NATURE 90%
NURTURE 10%
And we would all have better dogs.

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Registered: Mar 2004
Location: Northwest Indiana
Posts: 1535

quote:

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Originally posted by Fisher13
I have never bred a dog, in fact I'm leaning towards spading the only hound I have worth considering. This is the whole point of my argument, a trainer shouldn't be involved in breeding. Neither should most hunters, genetics are finicky, it'd an art form that takes years to master and even then results can be poor.
If people would stop believing that they can fix there problems by buying another pup, or breeding there so so dog, instead learn to work with what they have. Learn to pound a dog, and the finer things of training a hound. This would improve the breed.

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Mr. Fisher first I enjoy reading your post and sure don't want to argue but we see things different. I thing because these post go back and forth so much I get confused. Genetics plays the biggest role in the outcome of the hound. Some hounds turn out in spite of their owner and some with the wise owner giving the hound the proper environment to develope. Here are some things to ponder about genetics.
1. Everyone says walkers slick tree to much. You think that is because just the guys getting walkers mishandle them around a tree its is genetics.
2. You want a black dog the you get a Black and Tan. Genetics determine the dog will be black. Same with red or blue one.
3. The straight line deep hunting some of the dogs have is due to genetics
4. The dogs mouth and how much they use it is determined by genetics
I would prefer to call someone that works with coon hounds a handler. How they handle that fury bundle of genetics is very important.

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Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 3468

There are a few things I might train my dog to do. The most important is to come to me anytime and every time I call him or tone him. It's ok to teach him to fetch, sit , shake hands, roll over or what ever. But if you have to teach him when to tree and when not to tree, please don't raise pups from him. He's a Gr. Nt. Ch. and a great pleasure dog but, not a stud dog. That should come natural.

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Without a doubt you teach your dogs the general obedience to be a pleasure to be around. Come, No, Load, what the tone sounds like.

Take a pup say 6 months old and introduce them to a cage coon. Most pups won't have a clue but in the ones I like to mess with you will see the wheels turning in their heads. They ain't sure what to do but the decent, sounds and sight of the coon gets them excited. I don't care if the run the other way trying to smell, I just want to see the coon cause something to click in their heads.

That is also why the dog you choose to hunt pups with for the first few times is a very peaceful tree dog. Many pups the first time around a tree will get those tree genetics working and will be barking at the old dog, barking at the bushes around the tree and all kinds of things. That don't know about that coon in the tree but they know they should be barking and their limited experience makes them look dumb sometimes but it is the wheels turning.

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Registered: Dec 2012
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 2027

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike Van Dusen
You sound like you are defeated before you start....
You think training is everything, to me breeding and trying to create something is the challenge,breeding and training go hand in hand, just my opinion........
How many breeders didn't hit a good cross, but they kept trying, and maybe hit on a good cross,breeding is a lot of trying and nothing is guaranteed, I have seen coondog to coondog not work,sometimes things just don't line-up.
You get on here and send out all this negative stuff and people listen,why are you so negative toward average people doing what they want,you don't have to be a big name to breed good dogs!
You say it takes years to master,those masters had to start somewhere,I am sure all their crosses didn't work.
And you say people shouldn't buy a pup to fix their problem, maybe that pup doesn't have that "IT FACTOR" that they are lookin for that they just shelled out big bucks from a bigtime cross,from a so called" master" that didn't work,you have to have talent no matter how good of a trainer you are,and a good trainer can recognize "IT FACTOR". and if they don't see" it" sometimes they move on..........That is their rite,so you do your thing and let others do their thing.
And as for improving the breed, we need to breed better dogs,not train inferior ones for breeding stock, breed those naturals to naturals, and training is easier, take my word on that, get you a natural, and if you know how to finish a coondog, you can get on here and really talk like you know something.
Have a great weekend.

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"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
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Registered: Dec 2012
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 2027

quote:

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Originally posted by Bruce M. Conkey
Mr. Fisher first I enjoy reading your post and sure don't want to argue but we see things different. I thing because these post go back and forth so much I get confused. Genetics plays the biggest role in the outcome of the hound. Some hounds turn out in spite of their owner and some with the wise owner giving the hound the proper environment to develope. Here are some things to ponder about genetics.
1. Everyone says walkers slick tree to much. You think that is because just the guys getting walkers mishandle them around a tree its is genetics.
2. You want a black dog the you get a Black and Tan. Genetics determine the dog will be black. Same with red or blue one.
3. The straight line deep hunting some of the dogs have is due to genetics
4. The dogs mouth and how much they use it is determined by genetics
I would prefer to call someone that works with coon hounds a handler. How they handle that fury bundle of genetics is very important.

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"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
Mark Twain

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Weyers Cave Va
Posts: 13416

I want the one that shows pure natural ability with little exposure to a coon.

Take my Mary female, I bred her last Spring at the age of three. She hadn't been messed with much at all until she turned two, mainly because of the problems with my back. I hunted her twice the Spring before she turned two, the first night she messed with the track before Pride ever struck it. She never opened on that track but went all the way to the tree with pride, the second night she opened before Pride and treed some. I then sent her to my buddy in Ohio to hunt for me. He showed her a caged coon or two turned them loose and let her tree them and then started hunting her. She was running and treeing in no time. She showed the natural ability that everyone looks for. The following Spring I bred her to Pride. Those pups are 11 months old now and seem to show the same natural abilities that she showed me.

To me those are the ones that we should be breeding.

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Registered: Mar 2004
Location: Northwest Indiana
Posts: 1535

quote:

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Originally posted by Fisher13
How does one spot natural ability in a hound if he hasn't first learned to nurture natural ability?

Nurture must come before nature. Look at Micheal Vick all the natural ability you could want in a QB, but he didn't know how to get out of his own way? Was it his poor genetics that caused his failure in the NFL, or a lack of nurturing from a young age?

My whole point is guys shouldn't be breeding until they have first mastered the ability to nurture nature!!!!!

Finally why is it that some guys always have nice hounds and others don't?

Look I'm not saying no one can learn to breed, and good breeding practices is how we improve our breed, but since dogs have big litters, not every Tom Dick and Harry needs to breeding. Talk to any successful breeder they will tell you about dog after dog that they have sold, because they felt it wasn't of there standard to be bred, only to have the next guy breed the dog.

If we would focus more on nurturing in our larger community we could actually get out of the way of ourselves and let our breeders do there job.

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Registered: Dec 2012
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 2027

quote:

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Originally posted by HOBO
I want the one that shows pure natural ability with little exposure to a coon.

Take my Mary female, I bred her last Spring at the age of three. She hadn't been messed with much at all until she turned two, mainly because of the problems with my back. I hunted her twice the Spring before she turned two, the first night she messed with the track before Pride ever struck it. She never opened on that track but went all the way to the tree with pride, the second night she opened before Pride and treed some. I then sent her to my buddy in Ohio to hunt for me. He showed her a caged coon or two turned them loose and let her tree them and then started hunting her. She was running and treeing in no time. She showed the natural ability that everyone looks for. The following Spring I bred her to Pride. Those pups are 11 months old now and seem to show the same natural abilities that she showed me.



To me those are the ones that we should be breeding.

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"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
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Registered: Dec 2012
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 2027

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike Van Dusen
I have been fooling with hounds my whole life, I am 53, I don't claim to know it all, but I have a pretty good idea and what has worked for me,I have what I call 3 very nice hounds in my kennel(not bragging)and I raised and trained them,you have been at this for 3 yrs. and are telling everyone all this advice, maybe you should be tuning in instead of broadcasting so much.
Training and breeding have to go together or how would you know what kind of hound you are producing....
I can spot talent,and I know how to polish it,if you don't believe me you are welcome to come for a pleasure hunt sometime......
And as far as some having nice hounds, I always have at least 1 that I am pretty proud of,and I haven't bought a finished hound in years, but I have turned down a lot of money for the 3 that are in my kennel that I have now.
A lot of guys on this board aren't beginners, and sometimes you just don't know as much as some, and they don't need all your advice.
I am very open minded and always willing to learn, but I am not a beginner,and you have a way of talking down to people who don't see things your way.

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Registered: Mar 2008
Location: LaPorte IN
Posts: 1620

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fisher13
[B].

I simply stating that even an all natural hound still takes many many many hours, to become great. Disagree if you want, but find the hardest Hunter(s) in any club and more times then not they will have the best hound in that club. No type of genetics can make up for that.


if you get the right blood line once they tree there first coon they are instant coon dogs and all they need after that is a ride to the woods, and about the hardest hunter in the club all they are doing is fine tuning the hounds natural abilities. also if the dog has natural abilities bred into them it will not take long for it to come out. I have seen pups run and tree there first night in the woods and have never seen a coon before, why do you think that is.

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Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 2078

very few men can do a good job at breeding,rasening ,training,putting one in the hunts,promoting,etc. and do a very good job in all area's of that. most are only good at one or two things at best. if you can figure out what you are good at and stick to that ur better off.
i see it all the time guy's that can't handle a certain part of this sport. other parts they are real good at.

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Registered: Dec 2012
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 2027

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Originally posted by pamjohnson
very few men can do a good job at breeding,rasening ,training,putting one in the hunts,promoting,etc. and do a very good job in all area's of that. most are only good at one or two things at best. if you can figure out what you are good at and stick to that ur better off.
i see it all the time guy's that can't handle a certain part of this sport. other parts they are real good at.

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"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
Mark Twain

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