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Treesmoke
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2013
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 120

Thanks

And I'm certain you are on top something by breeding better females! I don't see how that could do anything but help! I'm still learning so I'm not trying to be critical about anyones program. I know there are lots of different ideas and lines that work for different people. I hope your work pays off huge in the future for you and I wish the same for dave! I'm sure I can learn something from both of you. We need some big winners in our breed and while I would love for it to be me, I would be happy for anyone hunting a red dog. I hope we can all
be open minded enough to help each other accomplish our goals as a breed and learn from each others successes and failures.

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03-26-2014 05:20 PM

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Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

Re: Thanks

quote:
Originally posted by Treesmoke
And I'm certain you are on top something by breeding better females! I don't see how that could do anything but help! I'm still learning so I'm not trying to be critical about anyones program. I know there are lots of different ideas and lines that work for different people. I hope your work pays off huge in the future for you and I wish the same for dave! I'm sure I can learn something from both of you. We need some big winners in our breed and while I would love for it to be me, I would be happy for anyone hunting a red dog. I hope we can all
be open minded enough to help each other accomplish our goals as a breed and learn from each others successes and failures.

I try to learn all I can from successful people who show results over time. If you want to be a successful breeder, trainer and handler of competition redbones....watch the guys who are breeding, training, and handling the dogs that have been and keep on winning in competition. I do ok with my dogs and program....but there are many others who do a lot of winning and always seem to be back in that circle year after year.
It surprises me how much criticism on this board that is directed to successful competition dog breeders and handlers comes not from serious competition hunters who know what it takes to win....but mostly from pleasure hunters or people on the sidelines who don't.
keep that in mind when you read over the threads and always be aware of what others who are successful in the other breeds are doing. I love the redbone breed....but it is probably more fractured than almost any other breeds and its more often than not caused by differences between the wants and needs of pleasure hunters vs competition hunters. Most lines out there will satisfy most plaesure hunters....but there are very few that consistently give the serious competition hunters what they need and want in a dog to put them on a level playing field with the top level walkers and english. Believe me when I tell you that myself and others are trying much harder than some may ever give us credit for to produce just that type of dog....but Rome wasn't built in a day....so stay tuned! good luck with your dogs Scott

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03-26-2014 06:35 PM

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Don Barnett Sr
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2008
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 1182

OUTSIDE THE BOX

You guys correct me if i'm wrong. In my mind I jumped on a couple outside the box breedings and to me it has worked out good. Tom Solberg and Josh Sterkis went out side the box with the Rabble Rouser and Machine Gun Annie cross. Also with the Rabble X Thomases Midnight Music cross. The Deuce X Musicmaker cross has worked very good. I didn't do a very good job of getting them into the right hands the first time. But the second time I did a lots better.
I have aquired two of the pups from the first cross. And I am very pleased with them both. Both of these young dogs will finish to top hounds. That's JMO.
I have some plans for them down the road. Inside and outside the box.
I will say I need all the help I can get to do this. I am open for all ideas.
WHEN Ginger finishes, I plan to linebred her to something. I am leaning to her uncle Rocky. The offspring, being I get what I think I will get will be due an outcross from there.
I want me one of them winners yall keep refering to. Pacman, Lipper, Zeb, hillbilly. and list goes on. BUT I want it to be in my bred of choise, RED.
Thanks guy's and I do need YALL'S HELP.

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03-26-2014 07:11 PM

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scotty
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2004
Location: south arkansas
Posts: 341

Mr Don I think you are on the right track. 2 key ingredients in making winners is good breeding and hard hunting.Getting dogs in the right hands is key.

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03-26-2014 07:23 PM

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Don Barnett Sr
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2008
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 1182

Thanks Scotty

This last litter I raised are in great hands. Larry Townsell and James Hughes are bouth good trainers and two of best handlers I know. Also Jim Kumburg is a trainer and he hunts the UKC hunts too. These guys wanted those pups from what they seen in Deuce and his offspring. Also the breeding that goes on back with them. Time will tell, by the reports they are giving me these pup are at the top of there game for there age.
I think as a hole we are headed in the right direction. There are more good bred red dogs to choose from now than ever. There are some good folks with passion for this bred working very hard to reach OUR goals.
My hat goes off to them all. That encludes my friend the KING Richard Lambert. HEHEHE.
I am excited about this weekend the $$$ bred race hunt off is going to be a good one.

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03-26-2014 08:31 PM

Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

quote:
Originally posted by scotty
Mr Don I think you are on the right track. 2 key ingredients in making winners is good breeding and hard hunting.Getting dogs in the right hands is key.

I think your exactly right. I would say it is easier to find a good bred pup that will make a dog if put in the right hands than it is to put every good bred pup into the right hands.
This breed has a lot of hunters...but not nearly enough good pup starters and people who know how to train a dog and then finish it out.
There is a big difference between those two types of people and I think alot of hard hunters who are not good at starting/finishing a dog are unable many times to get that good breeding to come to the surface in a dog. It is easier if they are a complete natural...but dispite what you read on this board...not many are. Most dogs don't tree their 1st time out at 5 months old. But, when a dog is ready to start and that is usually between 7 and 12 or even 14 months....by setting up the right situations and repeating them a few times...it is not unreasonable to expect a well bred pup to be running and treeing some within 4-8 times of working with it....IF....it is ready to start, mature enough to start, and has enough natural ability bred into it.
I never have trouble getting pups to start when they are ready but I know alot of guys struggle to get theirs started...even when some are from the same litter that mine is from so I see all too often that its not always a problem with the breeding...but often it is just inexperience in the area of starting and training. I always try to help others understand what I do to start a young dog and why I do it and why I am careful not to do certain things as well.

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03-26-2014 08:31 PM

WattsFlatsRedbo
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Corry,Pa
Posts: 801

Re: If rat attack was a redbone

quote:
Originally posted by Treesmoke
I've got a question. If rat attack came back to life as a Redbone,
How many of you would breed to him?

I would in a heartbeat. Years back there was quite a few dogs in my area that were directly off of Rat. From what I seen when hunting with dogs out of him were that some were slick treeing idiots (that I would have shot) and some were darn NICE dogs. I actually started to ask guys what females their Rat dog was out of and between what I had seen and what MANY of walker men told me I came to a agreed upon conclusion. If Rat was breed to a female that had more tree then track in her, then you got a lot of slick treeing idiots most of the time. But when he was bred to well balanced females you'd get some really nice dogs. So yes, I'd breed a nice balanced red female to him if he were a reddog and was still alive. Only because of his HIGH reproduction % and ability to throw top level dogs when bred to the right females though. It wouldn't be because I needed to add more tree although he'd do that too. Theres plenty of tree minded dogs in our breed now. I own a couple. Lol.

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03-27-2014 01:48 AM

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Preston Owens
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2009
Location: Grant County AR
Posts: 1279

I have the answer

I spoke to Joe Melton yesterday and get ready guys. He is planning on breeding a few more up to help out. He put more redbones in top competition than anyone I know and had some of the very winningest redbones of all time. He asked me if I would post the pups for him when he gets some on the ground and I gladly will. He has kept his strain and will be producing some real go getters... He is 73 and has been to and hunted with and against most all of the dogs folks talk about on here and he held his own with a red dog on his leash. Im excited... Have fun with this thread,im enjoying it with his help bigger things will start to happen in my favorite strain of dogs..

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03-27-2014 04:21 AM

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Treesmoke
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2013
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 120

Patience

I bought my first redbones when I was fourteen. He was 15 mo old, not started. I hunted him almost every night. I would come home and my dad would ask, "get any" and for 9 months I had the same reply, "nope"! He reply was always the same too," keep hunting him. If he is bred to be a coon dog, it will come out some night." I wondered many nights if my dad knew what he was talking about. One night when digger was 2, I walked him out in the woods and he went a few hundred yards and sit down treed. Had a big ol coon! From that night on my response
wwhen I got home was almost always the same, "yep"!
To this day I still get impatient with my younger dogs and even some of my older ones, but I always remember my dad telling me to keep hunting them, if it's in there it will come out!

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03-27-2014 02:50 PM

Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

Re: Patience

quote:
Originally posted by Treesmoke
I bought my first redbones when I was fourteen. He was 15 mo old, not started. I hunted him almost every night. I would come home and my dad would ask, "get any" and for 9 months I had the same reply, "nope"! He reply was always the same too," keep hunting him. If he is bred to be a coon dog, it will come out some night." I wondered many nights if my dad knew what he was talking about. One night when digger was 2, I walked him out in the woods and he went a few hundred yards and sit down treed. Had a big ol coon! From that night on my response
wwhen I got home was almost always the same, "yep"!
To this day I still get impatient with my younger dogs and even some of my older ones, but I always remember my dad telling me to keep hunting them, if it's in there it will come out!

Most good bred dogs have an internal switch inside them.
Some dogs have a flip switch that goes from off to full on and some have a reastat switch that starts out dim but with time it also reaches that full on setting. As a trainer, I always try to evaluate each pup as they grow and after starting alot of dogs...I am pretty good at guessing what will flip that switch the quickest and with the best long term results. I never use a blanket approach to training where the same exact methods are used on every dog. All dogs are different, just like all kids are different and different approaches bring different responses from the dog. Good luck with your dogs Scott

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03-27-2014 11:08 PM

BARRY C MORRIS
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2013
Location: Georgetown, SC
Posts: 128

quote:
Originally posted by Brian Jennewein
To each his own,breed what you want and hunt what you want everyone has different taste in dogs.Good luck to everyone.

'NUFF SAID.

SEE YOU AT THE NEXT TREE
- DR. GUMMY

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03-28-2014 03:28 PM

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Lawsreddog
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2013
Location: Indiana
Posts: 486

rat

never would breed! My Dad's had walkers for 55yrs. said if you like slick corn stalks you'd like rat!

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03-29-2014 10:33 AM

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j myers
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2004
Location: Everton, Mo
Posts: 199

Guys in the walker breed want a pup out of the stud dog who's pups are doing the most winning right now. How come the dog who's pups won the performance points total for last year doesn't have 30 females booked to breed? If the breeders who think they have the top females in the breed.
Or which $KC stud had the most $ won for pup earnings in 2013. How many females are booked to breed to him?

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03-31-2014 01:21 PM

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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

If Rat was alive today, I wonder how many walker dog men would be breeding females to him? Most walker men will tell you that Rat set the breed back. Rat pups could win back then but they were no fun to hunt and sometimes downright embarrasing. Rat pups are the reason that there are so many independant dogs today. The smart guys figured out that the way to beat those slick treeing super quick dogs was to always be by yourself with a coon and keep them on a leash walking to your dog. It is like the slow down tactics that basketball teams sometimes use to beat those high scoring teams. PKC Silver Champion Mongo Red won all of his money hunting against all of those high powered Rat pups. They hated to draw him.

Last edited by Richard Lambert on 03-31-2014 at 03:14 PM

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03-31-2014 03:10 PM

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Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

quote:
Originally posted by j myers
Guys in the walker breed want a pup out of the stud dog who's pups are doing the most winning right now. How come the dog who's pups won the performance points total for last year doesn't have 30 females booked to breed? If the breeders who think they have the top females in the breed.
Or which $KC stud had the most $ won for pup earnings in 2013. How many females are booked to breed to him?

Because the redbone breed has very few top females to breed, and when I say top females....I mean top level or even mid to upper level competition proven females.
If we could put as much time into promoting and proving our females as many do their males....the breed would get better just from that. Too many average females are bred each year to "stud dogs" assuming that the male will carry the female and they will get above average pups.....just does not work that way. Average in....average out. There is no real money to be made in the redbone breed with a male dog right now....because there just isn't enough females to breed....let alone really good females. Until our breed can compete and win against the best of the other breeds and consistently win or make the final cast in big top level hunts....it will never be as popular as those breeds that do....and that means the numbers won't be there for a top stud dog to produce anywhere near 1k-3k pups over its lifetime.
I will say this, there are top handlers in the walker breed who would love, love, love to find a redbone who can compete at the top level....and they will pay very well for one .....if they can find it. As a breed...we really need to work on the female side of the crosses we make a lot more. We need to prove our females are better than most dogs they draw by entering them and winning with them and then only breeding those who have proven themselves worthy....that is what gave the walker and English breeds the bump that put them in the lead. Say what you want about all grand pedigrees.....but they are definatly stronger on average and have fewer weak links on the bottom side of the crosses that make them up. Just look at the other breeds doing all the winning and see just how many titled out grand nite females are behind those big winners. As a breed we need to make the connection....and make changes...and catch up before we get any further behind in our breeding programs for our competition strains of redbones.

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03-31-2014 06:57 PM

M. B. Jones
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Registered: Sep 2012
Location:
Posts: 74

Rat Attack would not have been bred to as much if his father had not died early. Sackett Jr. is the reason that Rat Produced as well as he did. Rat was the oldest son at the time JR died.
I don not belive it would matter any way. People are too bloodline blind to use a dog that can reproduce because it is not theirs or their friends dog. JMO

Last edited by M. B. Jones on 03-31-2014 at 11:45 PM

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03-31-2014 11:37 PM

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corey ryan
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2006
Location: PEI CANADA
Posts: 141

Rat was a dominating stud dog his pups won everything. If Rat was a reddog that would be the best thing to ever happen to the breed. I like redbones would prefer a reddog over a walker BUT. If Rat were a Red stud you would see a difference in the breed today and not in a negative way that's just my opinion.

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Treesmoke
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2013
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 120

What I've learmed

I've learned a lot from this thread. I appreciate everyone's opinions. What I've learned is that as breeders we don't all have the same opinions or goals. Nothing wrong with that. I'm sure you will find that in all breeds. I think there have been some very good post on here about what our breed needs to be more competitive. The best advice I have been given was for each
of us to breed what suits each of us. If we want to win, breed to winners. If we want to pleasure hunt, breed to a dog that is a pleasure to hunt. Whether it's a pleasure dog your after or a competition dog, breed to the dog that best compliments your dog, whether it's the same bloodline you carry or not and no matter who owns it. I also agree with shane that better females will produce better pups. The one thing that has drawn me to the Redbone breed is the people. They have all been so nice and helpful. One thing I didn't realize is how divided we are by bloodlines. My opinion of what I think we need to help is a big ol bowl of soup. Share our ingredients. And all enjoy.

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04-01-2014 05:28 PM

Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

Re: What I've learmed

quote:
Originally posted by Treesmoke
My opinion of what I think we need to help is a big ol bowl of soup. Share our ingredients. And all enjoy.

What if one person's soup contained a cup of hot sauce? Everyone does not "enjoy" the same flavors. I guess that is why we have different breeds and different lines. Some people like gumbo, some like clam chowder, some like fish soup, some like bean soup, some like vegetable soup, some like beef stew and some don't mind a little "mystery meat" in their soup. Who is to say which is best. Everyones taste is different.

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04-01-2014 05:46 PM

Treesmoke
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2013
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 120

True

That's true Richard. I'm not saying same flavor of soup for everyone. I'm excited to see what our breed has to offer in the future. I enjoy all the speculation and conversation that comes with it.

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04-01-2014 06:17 PM

Bobby Stevens
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2008
Location: Greeneville,Tn
Posts: 848

he sired 3 consecutive $kc world hunt winners embarrassing as hill I would think he sired the all time money winning hound at $119,877.12
4 out of the top ten all time money winners are sired by him embarrassing to say the least
maybe some of those embarrassing were not trained to well or over trained lol
it would sure be nice to own a red rat attack with those kind of numbers and have him stored for future use I would think but wdik

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04-01-2014 08:45 PM

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OLD TIMER
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1610

2 Storys to read this month----

Page 13 of the Cooner and 100 of Bloodlines. I found them both very nice and made me glad to just love to have fun with these "old" Reds and let someone else have the headaches. .

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04-01-2014 09:11 PM

Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

Rat did reproduce alot of winners....and a great many more dogs that were culled for being slick treeing idiots. If you had a good one out of him...you love him .....and if you had a bad one...you hate him. And while there were some really good ones....the number of bad far out weighed those good ones...but that is true on almost every stud I know of that was bred very much. But Rat has a dual reprutation in the walker breed....and when you hear the name Rat in most walker circles....they are usually talking about slick treeing. I think he was bred to many many good females and they helped his reproducing record a lot.
Better redbone females would also help our breed a lot.
Do I think Rat would have had the same effect on our breed if he was bred to redbone females...no.
Do I like some of the traits he threw in his pups...yes...but the tree power wasn't one of them and I think it is responsible for alot of damage to the walker breed...more so than the traits I liked. But one thing is for sure....when he was bred to the right females...and all the stars lined up....you got power house winners and you can't argue otherwise.
We don't have anything close to a rat attack in this breed right now as far as I know. I hope we have something similar some day...but I hope it keeps the accuracy and brains to use it....becuase without that....our breed will not be the same if the dog is bred to like they bred to rat.

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04-01-2014 09:35 PM

Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

Are there that many people out there in the redbone breed who's dogs don't have enough tree in them? Because that's the main thing Rat put in his pups....sometimes it seemed like that was all they knew or did was tree...right or wrong. I never saw a Rat dog or Rat bred dog that would not tree....but also never saw one that was very accurate.
I guess I just don't see why people think we need more tree in the redbone breed. To me, that is not the problem. The problem is lack of drive, lack of strike and track speed and not enough mouth in many lines.
I just can't understand why people would want to add more tree power at the expense of everything else. We will start gaining ground on the other breeds if we stay balanced and accurate and then add better strike, more track speed, lots more competetive drive and more volume so we can hear those dogs with big wheels when that drive takes them deep.
Maybe its the line I am hunting....but accurate, quick locating tree dogs are not something that eludes me in this line....that trait is solidly locked in.
Maybe some breeders on here that think breeding to a dog like rat is the answe should really consider what they need in their line of choice. List out what your line has and what it is weak in. Then look for dogs to breed to that have the same good traits that your line has locked in....but also has a dominant trait locked in that you want to add. Dont Breed a track dog who won't tree to a tree dog that can't track and expect to get pups that are great at both....it rarely works out that way.

Last edited by Hoosier Outlaw on 04-01-2014 at 10:14 PM

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04-01-2014 10:05 PM

Preston Owens
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2009
Location: Grant County AR
Posts: 1279

just a thought

To Win you have to have a Stay put hold pressure treedog. I look at the dogs for sale thread and talk with folks all over about the dogs they have. The one thing that seems to come up is that a lot won't tree. If a person intends to turn heads I've found the best way is turn loose a tree monster as some of yall call them that does get under a coon most of the time. My take on Rat is that he influenced them in a positive way more than negative simply based off what he produced in his #'s and all the good dogs that never went to a hunt from him. They were out there. I have been and will continue to breed in the direction that increases the # of pups per litter that will get treed and stay put. Everyone always goes to "drive" as their reasoning behind a cross in our breed. But the facts remain that TREEDOGS are what beats most "good reds" in competition.

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04-02-2014 09:55 PM

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