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quote:

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Originally posted by K. Singletary
See the other kennel club that has many of these rules has a proposal on the table for 90 minute hunts siting lack of hunting ground and safety.

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Shane

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Anything on them or the new alpha?

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Mike McKinney

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quote:

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Originally posted by dawgg03
Anything on them or the new alpha?

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Thanks

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Mike McKinney

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quote:

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Originally posted by shane_atchison
Now that there will be a countdown it will be a lot easier to tell the dominate dog.

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quote:

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Originally posted by shane_atchison
I would vote for 90min. hunts if it were a proposal. Now that there will be a countdown it will be a lot easier to tell the dominate dog.

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"It's not the will to win that matters - everyone has that. It's the will to prepare to win that matters."
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Do all associations have to vote yes to pass a rule change, or is it a percentage thing?

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quote:

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Originally posted by K. Singletary
Well, we will have to disagree on that. IMO the count down only promotes independance, which I don't think should be promoted with the shrinking of hunting land that is taking place nationwide and the amount of game cams that are all over the woods. These things will only lead to problems in the future.

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Shane

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quote:

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Originally posted by shane_atchison
The price$ and quality of a titled hound should easily double.

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i like the count down rule.
it works well with the stock of dogs i hunt.it dosent have that much to do with independence.
my dog can move a track.it aint his fault if the other dogs beat it to death and cant keep up.

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quote:

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Originally posted by K. Singletary
Wow, that's a lot of stock you put in a rule change. I just don't see it. It's not like this is a brand new, never used rule. Other registries have been using it for years, where is the improvement?

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Shane

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The babbler will get you every time, a count down won't solve that...

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PR B and B's Smokin' Willie


"PR"B and B's Coon Doctor
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Past Home of:

Nite Ch. "PR"B and B's Smokin' Misty (2007-2018)

Nite Ch B&B's Black Hoss (1992-2003)

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quote:

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Originally posted by shane_atchison
Yes it is. I see it. Its in black n white (me-to babbling cover dogs will have lost there big advantage thus makin it a lot harder to get titled) Other reg. have used it for years, hunt a me-to babbling cover dog there & let me know how much money you win.

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looks like some folks are gonna be changing their breeding program up.lol

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quote:

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Originally posted by mike mizell
looks like some folks are gonna be changing their breeding program up.lol

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B&B's Black and Tans

PR B and B's Smokin' Willie


"PR"B and B's Coon Doctor
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Past Home of:

Nite Ch. "PR"B and B's Smokin' Misty (2007-2018)

Nite Ch B&B's Black Hoss (1992-2003)

Nite Ch.Gr.Ch. Shaker Hill Mr. Grubbs (2003-2011)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Billy George
The babbler will get you every time, a count down won't solve that...

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Shane

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like the count down as the some does it will stop me to cover dogs from tail gating coondogs a lot of folks i no bank there dog getting by themself hope this one passes thanks robert

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quote:

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Originally posted by K. Singletary
Well, we will have to disagree on that. In all my experience hunting with the countdown it is more of a handler tool to decide how many points he wants to risk, has very little to do with the dog. I'd say as many dogs win by their handler waiting and taking a quarter on a questional sounding tree as anything else when hunting with a countdown. Most people only look at what happens if a tree is plussed, but what happens when a tree is minused with only 2 dogs on it. 1 dog is holding 1st tree, the other dog's handler waited and took 25. So now, the dog that covered a slick tree is only minused 25 where in UKC he would be minused 75. IMO the count down only promotes independance, which I don't think should be promoted with the shrinking of hunting land that is taking place nationwide and the amount of game cams that are all over the woods. These things will only lead to problems in the future.

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25 and 125 beats the babbling 100/25 all night in my calculations...
Even the 75/125 will beat the 100/quick backing babbler 75..

Have tried to get the other KC to up their tree points to 125 for a while now with no success because with the strike and tree the same the babbler has an advantage. But with more on the tree points it cuts back on the babblers advantage. The only way a babbler can beat you with this setup is if he trees a coon on his on in which the countdown means nothing for you in this setuo anyways.

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PKC Silver Champion $5000+ Won; (Never in a UKC hunt) GR CH 'PR' Raines' Trusty II AKA "Thunder" (Trusty X Ox Female(Callie))

Gone But Never Forgotten: PKC Silver Champion($5444 won); UKC GR. Nt. Ch. 'PR' Raines' Rockytop Kansas TRUSTY (3 Generation All Grand)
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Yes to all the proposed changes. Especially #1 YES.... Lets get rid of the me 2 culls that show up at the tree 4 minutes after the coon was treed and still end up with 75 points when they had no part in treeing the coon but are stealing points they don't deserve.... 25 points is plenty for the dog that didn't tree the coon.

Imagine you are at work on the job stacking lumber and you finish your task 4 minutes ahead for your coworker, your coworker shows up to help you stack the lumber 4 minutes after you have completed the task... This happens all day long while you are at work and your supervisor is watching you and your coworker the entire time, who do you think the supervisor will give credit for stacking the lumber, you ? Or the coworker that showed up 4 minutes late ? Your coworker is a me 2 bum and so is a dog that shows up at any tree after 2 minutes.

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The rules should be fair enough so that any style of dog that is consistant and competitive can win .... it's not for us to try and tweak rules that are unfair to a dog that isn't " our" style .. if someone likes a me-too dog , a loaner , a tree grabber or whatever ... and they pay the entry fee then they should get a fair shake .

The rules that you like and give you the edge , may make it miserable for two of your neighbors .... hard to promote the nite hunts and winning if the rules aren't fair to some... it just makes for more rule proposals the next time around.

A consistant dog that is competitive will hold his own over several turnouts .. maybe he barely wins over a dog you don't like instead of blowing him out .. so what , what's it to you if a dog you don't have to feed is a close second or wins a few hunts ?

Too many of these rules are about trying to manipulate the game .. instead of making it fair .

If you have a babbler , turn them loose away from any timber or water and let the judge dog his job if the dog hops the fence barking ... the rules can't do the judges job for him or give him the spine he needs .... seems like it's easier to quote a rule and console a guy getting minused than to just give it to him straight.

Awarding more points for a dog that split trees , or one that babbles , or one that is a loner , or packs .... that's not a level playing field ... just because you think it's worth more points for a dog doing the same thing , just in a different style ... don't mean it needs to be a rule ... that's not fair , it's needing a handicap to ensure your dog wins.

It's just running and treeing coon ... it don't take but a few rules to figure out which dog in the cast is the winner ... those rules and subrules are so the handlers can be the winners even if the dog aint.

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I like rule 6 ( the add rule part about aggression towards handlers), other than that I think the rules we have are fine so leave them alone. I know that the other KC has this rule and that rule to minus out the competition , get them scratched, or shorten up the tree points and that sounds good to the cut throat hunters so they should be supporting the other KC every chance they get. I don't care for that style of hunting, and I know several people that don't care for the more laid back style of hunting with UKC's current rules but at least for now we all have a place to go hunt where we like the rules. I've been told for a long time that coon hunters are a dying breed and from what I've been seeing around here that's a pretty accurate statement , I don't think we need more rules to help get rid of the less serious about winning type of hunter that's just out there to have fun and hunt his less than perfect dog hoping to get lucky and get a plastic trophy or maybe title his dog eventually. As far as getting beat by a "me too" dog or a "babbler" in UKC, well, yes it does happen from time to time, but let me say this. If I can't beat you with the dog I have, regardless of the rules or the KC involved , as a serious hunter I shouldn't be worried about changing the rules to help me win. I need to be changing dogs instead.

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quote:

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Originally posted by K. Singletary
Well, we will have to disagree on that. In all my experience hunting with the countdown it is more of a handler tool to decide how many points he wants to risk, has very little to do with the dog. I'd say as many dogs win by their handler waiting and taking a quarter on a questional sounding tree as anything else when hunting with a countdown. Most people only look at what happens if a tree is plussed, but what happens when a tree is minused with only 2 dogs on it. 1 dog is holding 1st tree, the other dog's handler waited and took 25. So now, the dog that covered a slick tree is only minused 25 where in UKC he would be minused 75. IMO the count down only promotes independance, which I don't think should be promoted with the shrinking of hunting land that is taking place nationwide and the amount of game cams that are all over the woods. These things will only lead to problems in the future.

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I believe this man has been in a hunt or two LOL.

Yes good smart defense with the countdown happens more than the countdown actually helping the dog that trees first. Face it, if it's a good hot track and they come on it right and are together then everybody is going on the paper, sometimes all four will go on the paper when there are only 2 dogs there That's what happens when the countdown is going to go against somebody, especially if it is only one out and they think he is close enough to the tree or deep enough in that nobody will be able to say for sure the dog wasn't there when called.

BUT when they are all not acting right the first one to tree may even have a stationary put on it and when he finally trees then everybody else waits until they are only risking 25.

Same thing at the end of the hunt with a lead, if somebody knows they have it OK unless the tree is minused they will just lay back to make sure it doesn't get them.

Defense is used probably as much as offense in this game to be sure.

That said I personally like the countdown, but he makes a very good point regardless of my personal feelings on the countdown.

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The hunts are having less and less entries now. If we start having all these rule changes, more pleasure hunts will quit coming.. Soon clubs won't be able to make enough to keep the doors open and we won't have any hunts and won't have to worry about the rules!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gene Raines
Kenny I don't get your way of thinking on this...

All this does is eliminate the dog that covers for 75 after 4:59 and all he gets is 25 now, which in my opinion needs a switch for covering. I hate a late backing *** dog. If they are running a track together he will get his 75 on the track, but don't quit doing nothing to come cover my tree late and expect to get 75. I hate that. And you see it in this KC the worst.

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