Registered: Aug 2006
Location: Montour IOWA
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I would say the majority of the cast did not see a coon so therefore it does not exist. The majority did see the possum so nitech and grands would be scratched.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1599

I see coon---I harvest it and pet hound.

I see coon and off game, I harvest coon and not pet hound.

I see off game and no coon, I cull hound.

Pretty easy to "score" under my rules.

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
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quote:

---

Originally posted by Jack Bingham
I would say the majority of the cast did not see a coon so therefore it does not exist. The majority did see the possum so nitech and grands would be scratched.

---

Oh my goodness. Now I don't know!!! So what is UKC's "official" interpretation???? Wasn't Mr Paul Frederick there?

When there is a possum and a coon in the same tree, did the dogs tree the possum and the coon was already there? Or did the dogs tree the coon and the possum was already there?

Kelly, I have been trying to figure that one out for a long time. I have seen chickens lay eggs and I have seen chickens hatched out of eggs. The chicken farmers that raise fryers say that the egg comes first but the chicken farmers that produce eggs say that the chicken comes first.

Last edited by Richard Lambert on 06-22-2013 at 02:46 PM

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1589

I'm very sure that when off game is seen in a tree the only way that the tree is not minus or scratched" in case of NiteCh or GrNite" is when a majority of the cast see a coon . I would have to add that I believe the majority has to also see the off game. You can circle a tree when scoring a coon "no majority" and end up minus on it for off game when a majority see the "possum" ...Trees can be judged on more than one aspect. We do it when we determine weather or not a tree is touching and also go on to score the tree for a coon. by the way 3 out of 4 got this one wrong at American Days. I was one of the three. Won't happen again, think I understand it pretty good now.

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Last edited by Sawblade on 06-22-2013 at 03:04 PM

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sawblade
I'm very sure that when off game is seen in a tree the only way that the tree is not minus or scratched" in case of NiteCh or GrNite" is when a majority of the cast see a coon . , think I understand it pretty good now.

---

Well, that is "official" enough for me. Now what about that chicken/egg thing?

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Registered: Mar 2009
Location: gillett PA
Posts: 546

25-30 years ago in a ntch cast, back then it was a nonhuntung judge, I was hunting my IKE dog, he had 1st strike & 1st tree, other dogs followed on strike & tree, 1 dog had a dozen quills in his nose. I saw the coon as did others, judge saw a porky as well in the tree. he wouldn't plus us or scratch us, dog with quills should have been gone, but he didn't scratch it, pulled quills . next drop the other 2 dog got in a dog fight so were scratched, left IKE and the one that had the quills in, at end of the night the one with quills was on top.
The lesson I learned was I should have questioned the call on scoring the tree as well as the quills in the other dog when it happened, cost me a win. the judge told me latter that he saw the coon too.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1589

Is scratching a dog for off game a judgment call or is it a voting situation. If the judge is the only one to see the off game or even believe dogs are running off game "deer" does he make the call and wait for a vote to overturn it. That one I'm not sure about. I think it is a judges call.

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Proud Breeder of the following dogs
GrNiteCh Sawblade Fiddle "no.5 historical female
QuadGrCh Yellow River Red Blaze
GrNiteCh Copeland's Red Hot Clyde
GrNiteCh Stone's Midnight Red Jake
NiteCh Brights Choctaw Night Time Sissy
NiteCh Sawblade Red Reckon
NiteCh Brasee Red Penny
NiteCh Nacalus Mandolin
Yellow River Fiddle II " good reproducer"
NiteCh Krasa Sawblade Quikstuf Bone
GrNiteCh Krasa Hair Trigger Hope
GrNiteCH Locked and Loaded Jake
GrNiteCh Moonlight Woody
NiteCh Sawblade Mac Truck " Jake and Hopes' brother"
NiteCh After Dark Spark " brother to Fiddle"
NiteCh Morgan's Boone " sister to Fiddle"
NiteCh High Water June " out of Reckon"
NiteCh Sawblade Timberline Rusty
Sawblade Ribbon,


They are bred with heart and drive included.

From a small kennel with Big results.

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sawblade
I think it is a judges call.

---

I would think that the judges call would be whether dogs are scratced or minused for running off game. I would think that it would be a judgement call as to whether they were actually running off game or not. But then I was wrong on the other call so what do I know? Here again, does it take a majority of the cast to scratch or minus dogs for running off game?

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Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1454

quote:

---

Originally posted by Richard Lambert
I would think that the judges call would be whether dogs are scratced or minused for running off game. I would think that it would be a judgement call as to whether they were actually running off game or not. But then I was wrong on the other call so what do I know? Here again, does it take a majority of the cast to scratch or minus dogs for running off game?

---

The judge and one other are the two that see the coon

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: michigan
Posts: 2573

I was asked the other day if I had the night hunt rules memorized yet . Just said no cause they irritate me when I try to figure them out .
I'm more like "OLD TIMER" but maybe a little easier to please .

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Ohio
Posts: 26

Add in the factor of 3 walkers and one redbone walkers treed the grinner with a coon above redbone split on same type tree redbone will be scratched hands down everytime

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Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1454

So Don your saying that if two of four which is not a majority does not see the coon the dogs are scratched

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Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1454

quote:

---

Originally posted by oklared
EXACTLY WHAT IM SAYING IF A POSSUM IS SEEN BY ALL FOUR, THE JUDGE VOTE CARRYS NO MORE WIEGHT THAN ANY OTHER AT THE TREE UNLESS ITS A DOG FIGHT OR DOG OFF TREE ETC. IT IS NOT A TIE BREAKER.

---

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Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1454

The dog always gets the Benifit of doubt

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Last edited by BIG$BLUES on 06-24-2013 at 03:16 AM

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Registered: Jul 2005
Location: mo
Posts: 1411

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jack Bingham
I would say the majority of the cast did not see a coon so therefore it does not exist. The majority did see the possum so nitech and grands would be scratched.

---

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Registered: Jul 2005
Location: mo
Posts: 1411

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sawblade
I'm very sure that when off game is seen in a tree the only way that the tree is not minus or scratched" in case of NiteCh or GrNite" is when a majority of the cast see a coon . I would have to add that I believe the majority has to also see the off game. You can circle a tree when scoring a coon "no majority" and end up minus on it for off game when a majority see the "possum" ...Trees can be judged on more than one aspect. We do it when we determine weather or not a tree is touching and also go on to score the tree for a coon. by the way 3 out of 4 got this one wrong at American Days. I was one of the three. Won't happen again, think I understand it pretty good now.

---

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Registered: Nov 2006
Location: Hillsboro Missouri
Posts: 2254

This sure sounds like our cast on Sat. night in Cuba.We made a den tree,circled it,then one dog drew two fifty minus for being declared treed and leaving twice.Then three dogs were declared treed,when we arrived the fourth dog was handled at the tree.The handler with the black dog got his first two to shine and found an opossum about three feet off the ground on the outside of the tree.All dogs were treed up the base of the tree,not that it mattered but i would believe if they wanted the opossum they wouldve pulled it out.Anyways as we shined we found a kitten in that tree and another sitting further down in another tree.Two handlers see it and two dont,so there is no majority,the only thing there is a majority on is the opossum.The handler with the black dog questions it and we went to the master of hounds.I stated to the master of hounds and the panel that was formed this exact thing,that we all seen the opossum but only two of us saw the coon,so you only have a majority on the opossum.They the panel made up of very well respected men,voted for us to circle it and continue our hunt.At which time the dog with two fifty minus was withdrawn and the dog that came into the tree was withdrawn.I was the judge on the cast and i know the rules as good as anyone,i did not question the call,it was my job as the judge to put the question on the card and the rest was up to the master of hounds.Now if anyone feels cheated,remember know one made you withdraw you did that yourself.Now my number is at the bottom of this page anyone that wants to discuss this further give me a call.

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Registered: Nov 2006
Location: Hillsboro Missouri
Posts: 2254

quote:

---

Originally posted by oklared
WELL THERE WAS NO COON SO THEY EVIDENTLY TREE'D THE POSSUM

---

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Last edited by Brian Jennewein on 06-24-2013 at 01:53 PM

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Registered: Jan 2006
Location: mn
Posts: 513

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brian Jennewein
This sure sounds like our cast on Sat. night in Cuba.We made a den tree,circled it,then one dog drew two fifty minus for being declared treed and leaving twice.Then three dogs were declared treed,when we arrived the fourth dog was handled at the tree.The handler with the black dog got his first two to shine and found an opossum about three feet off the ground on the outside of the tree.All dogs were treed up the base of the tree,not that it mattered but i would believe if they wanted the opossum they wouldve pulled it out.Anyways as we shined we found a kitten in that tree and another sitting further down in another tree.Two handlers see it and two dont,so there is no majority,the only thing there is a majority on is the opossum.The handler with the black dog questions it and we went to the master of hounds.I stated to the master of hounds and the panel that was formed this exact thing,that we all seen the opossum but only two of us saw the coon,so you only have a majority on the opossum.They the panel made up of very well respected men,voted for us to circle it and continue our hunt.At which time the dog with two fifty minus was withdrawn and the dog that came into the tree was withdrawn.I was the judge on the cast and i know the rules as good as anyone,i did not question the call,it was my job as the judge to put the question on the card and the rest was up to the master of hounds.Now if anyone feels cheated,remember know one made you withdraw you did that yourself.Now my number is at the bottom of this page anyone that wants to discuss this further give me a call.

---

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Registered: Nov 2006
Location: Hillsboro Missouri
Posts: 2254

The moh decision was to circle it and continue the hunt,one handler didnt agree so a panel was formed.The panel reached the same conclusion.Although it was wrong it was their decision and the cast continued.

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Registered: Jun 2010
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If my Grand Nite leaves 2 trees I'm going to be culling, not crying.
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Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1454

In a 2 to 2 vote with a coon and off game seen I would say del

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Registered: Jan 2006
Location: mn
Posts: 513

quote:

---

Originally posted by BIG$BLUES
In a 2 to 2 vote with a coon and off game seen I would say del

---

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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9268

Wanted to stay out of this debate because it's evolved to an actual situation that recently occurred and certainly don't want to offend any of those players.

The correct way to score a situation where you have a majority seeing off-game and two out of four seeing a coon in the same tree is as follows:

First.... scoring dogs on off-game does not require a majority of the cast to see the off-game. Off-game is a matter of identifying it as such by the judge (whether hunting or non-hunting) of the cast. In the case of "obviously" running a deer, the judge might not even ever see the off-game before making the call! So, the fact that a majority saw the possum in the tree is a mute point. If the judge saw it and made the call then it stands unless a cast member challenged that it was in fact a possum. Then they would simply call for a vote, in the case of a hunting judge. It would take a majority vote to over turn the judge's ruling.

The first sentence in Rule 5 (a) states you circle points: When dog strikes AND trees up a tree OR a hole in the ground where there could be a coon, yet the Judge (in case of hunting judge = majority) does not see coon AND NO OFF GAME IS SEEN.

1). Circling points is not an option because you SAW off game in the tree. 2). Majority did not see a coon, therefore, plussing the points is not an option either. 3). There are no provisions to either minus OR delete points in such a situation.

The only option remaining and the correct way to score such a situation under Championship rules is to scratch the dogs that were there and treeing when the judge arrived.

Hope this helps to clarify this somewhat unique situation.

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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9268

I'd like to add one more thing. The Master of Hounds, the Formal Complaint Panel nor any of the handlers should be criticized for the calls that were made.

1). The Master of Hounds and the Panel ARE REQUIRED TO make a decision - be it right or wrong.

2). They made their decision based on what they could find or knew for a unique situation.

3). The handlers accepted their decision and went back out as they should have, based on the ruling at the clubhouse.

For all those involved........ they'll probably remember very well for the rest of their nite hunting careers in UKC. So it's a good thing.

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