Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Lockridge Iowa
Posts: 2848

The biggest reason some people want it closed is FEAR!!!!
Fear of getting beat by a cross bred dog just look at all the fuss little RED drew when she was winning or Cali last year.

Fear of it not being outta there line of dogs! No one is asking you to breed to a single registered redbone or take a pup outta one

Fear someone might get a jump on them and win and there left out . the great breeders of years gone by did it all the time and if you think they didn't u need to wake up.

Fear of paying 5000$ to a cross breed for winning the world hunt.

Just because you don't agree with them doesn't make them wrong.

When people start paying my expenses then they can tell me how to breed,what to breed, what to hunt and how to hunt.

Leave it all open if it meets standards let it be registered.



Quit worrying about what others are doing that's the problem with this world every

=========================
This post above was posted by another hunter about crossbreeds and single registration.
I say he hit the nail on the head

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Lockridge Iowa
Posts: 2848

quote:

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Originally posted by forreststrickla
Justin I have a fullblooded b&t here so look no futher

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forrest he asked fore a PUREBRED not a FULLBLOODED BNT

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Registered: Dec 2007
Location: Kenansville NC
Posts: 1055

I know lol just aggitating before dark

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Registered: Mar 2013
Location: Alabama
Posts: 52

I'm certainly not scared of being best by any pure bred or cross bred dog out there. We r all gonna win some and lose some at some point. But if we keep going like we r when they are all tied out to the fence they will all look just alike and the papers will b the only way to tell them apart. I think that my dogs are the best and I like to hunt them against the best no matter the breed. I think UKC should open up a cross breed section like PKC has and if the DNA doesn't match no matter what the looks r they should b considered a cross bred and then they can hunt right along with the pure bred dogs but they will be hunting as there rightful name.

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Registered: Sep 2003
Location:
Posts: 2785

Just imagine if Lil Red would have been bred to Hardrock !

YOu guys exaggerate stuff too much ... an inbred her or crossbred there aint gonna change nothing ... you can't see the effects of any of that except on paper.

Besides Hardrock , what other crossbred in recent years has everyone up in arms ? Is all the hoopla year after year and the drum beating just because of one dog and his offspring ...

Folks used to be against inbreeding , UKC even would stamp papers as inbred ... not , everyone is doubling up hoping to get another good dog and we got inbreds everywhere.

Reminds me of chickens when one starts cackling because it thinks it sees something and he rest crowd around cackling because the one is cackling.

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Registered: Mar 2013
Location: Alabama
Posts: 52

If little red was bred yo hard rock I guess u would have a curr dog. Lol

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Registered: Jan 2008
Location:
Posts: 398

Amen!!! Berger

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Registered: Dec 2012
Location: Missouri
Posts: 5

The older breeders know what is in today's black and tans. Tam never tried to pass hardrock off for any thing other than what he was. Better talk to some of the old guys before you say they are pure.

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Registered: Apr 2012
Location: Virginia
Posts: 229

A b&t as well as any coon hound has their very origins from cross breeding! Bloodhound/foxhound. Its just been in the somewhat recent years that people have gotten so tied up in papers and "purebred" dogs and its as much a money thing as anything. A buyer wants to know what they are paying for and will spend more for the proof and a registration is supposed to provide that. I could care less one way or the other what anyone else wants to keep, breed or hunt But when a group gets together and decides what it considereds the standards of their particular breed then that is what it is and thats what should be followed to a t when a dog Is registered. Half of the black and tans you see around now are hardly recognizable to the old style other than their color these days. And everybody knows why......

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4321

I don't post on here much anymore. Its gotten too stupid to be very worthwhile. But I do see there are a few sensible people on here and this is me sharing my opinion with them and supporting them.

Crossbreeding is more of a fad and a publicity stunt than anything. Look at how they get talked about. If you really look at the results of modern day crossbreeding, it doesn't measure up.

Sure, one here and there will win. They may even have some real ability. But their cast win percentage isn't any better than any other number of B&T's that aren't as crossed up, as close up. If you look at *KC results of big hunts, they list all the early round cast results. Nationals, Pup shootout, Supersakes, World hunt. Go back and look at them. Win records recognize good dogs that win alot of casts AND not such good dogs that enter alot of hunts, especially in *kc. Win records can be deceiving. So, be careful.

I believe it is true that a few of the big name breeders were secretly or unknowingly crossing dogs and hanging papers in the old days and are still quietly in favor of it today. How many of them are directly involved in a dog that is on the TRL or PRP lists or wins much of anything, today? Few or none. That should tell ya' something.

If there are any that believe that modern day crossbreeding and paper hanging is justified by it being done 50 years ago, then I guess you still ride a horse to work and watch a black and white TV? Those things were great to have in their day but things CHANGE. Change with them, or get left behind.

If a crossbred popped up that truly had top notch ability and could reproduce it and could pass the rules for single registration, I would breed to it. I, personally, don't want to close that door. But I haven't seen one in my lifetime. Even many of the public supporters of these dogs will not breed to them. Actions speak louder than words. If I spent my time looking for a top crossbred or trying to make one, I'd be MISSING top B&T males that are the result of solid, planned breeding that are right under my nose. That would be stupid and I try hard not to be stupid.

This is jmo. I don't care about some of yours and you have the right to not care about mine.

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Registered: Sep 2003
Location:
Posts: 2785

Eligibility based on results , without bias .... that is what is missing in the offbreeds that the Walkers have done away with.


But , as for the boards ... each has their cliques ... there are only a half dozen posters on the other board because of personal issues or cliques ... and those posters don't post on here because of the same reason ... kinda childish , I post on both and could care less what anyone thinks .... all opinions have value if they are shared honestly.

Both sides of any debate have truth in them ... it's the middle ground that takes the strengths of both that will advance any individual or group

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Registered: Jul 2005
Location: California, MO
Posts: 771

I don't see how crossbreeding can be called a fad when its been happening since the beginning.....

B&Ts won more on the big stage in the 80s and early 90s. I feel like that is an undisputed fact. Dirty papers and crossbreeding happened more in the 80s and early 90s, I feel like that is also an undisputed fact. I guess each one of us has to make up our own mind if the two are related. I know I have.

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Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 15

saying that none of the crossbreeds reproduce is too early to tell come to iowa and hunt with brett myers line of COON DOGS they are reproducing winners that are winning everywhere, although they arent black n tans, but i believe he is on his second generation breeding back to walker studs, as far as pkc crossbreds go it is smoke and mirrors alot of the dogs registered as crossbreds are purebreds its easier to get truck tickets and stuff as a crossbreds, as far as hardrock i dont believe he got much opportunity to prove himself as a ukc stud,

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Registered: Feb 2005
Location: western central, IL
Posts: 1084

I think I just read an article in the Prohound about Crossbreeds leading all dogs last year in winnings. I beleive it stated crossbreads won more state races, local hunts and major hunts. I'm curious now and will have to go back and reread my prohound to make sure.
Now were talking about cross breeds of all breeds not just B & T's and somethinig else. I know they won a lot in that registry.

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Registered: Jul 2012
Location: al
Posts: 739

The B&T Assc will die a slow death because of cross-breeding. Lots of people are not renewing their memberships...Why support an Assc that doesn't support their own breed standards..
.......The Assc was started to better the B&T Breed and try to have purebred blk dogs. That's why the Breed Standards were put in place...to do away with cross-breeding. I knew and hunted with several of the early guys who started the Assc and they've probably rolled over in their graves at this new wave of cross-breeding.......There's something wrong with the process when dogs with white FEET, not toes, and white on their necks and jaws get registered as B&Ts. Vast majority of B&T people don't want any white but then you have these yahoos that call themselves B&T men that don't care what they look like, all they want is to win and have their pictures in the mags......Winning isn't everything as a great handler can win with an average dog..Nuff Said.

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 233

Skidiver,
I have only one question for you.
Was Combs and Smiths Smokey a full blooded purebred Black and Tan ?

Last edited by Amish Mafia on 03-19-2013 at 11:59 PM

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Registered: Mar 2013
Location: Alabama
Posts: 52

Skidiver u said it all.

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Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Petersburg, Tn. aka Redneck USA
Posts: 1184

I spent 1 hr and 40 minutes on the phone with one of the most respected and well known black and tan men in the breed whos done as much winning as anybody and more than most about this very topic a couple days ago. We were in agreement that the breed is lacking in some areas as a whole. One of those areas is getting struck quick and on the scorecard for 100. He agreed that if it cant be found within the breed, then its time to step outside the box! Guys being naive about this and closed minded is one reason the breed is lacking as a whole. Nobody wants to take the proper steps to make it better. As far as hunting a purebred bnt, we should all know better than to think we're hunting pure bred bnts. I know some think you have that quick strike dog and some may actually have it, but compared to what are they quick strike dogs? Are they quick compared to Hardrock, or Flatrock Clackston or are they quick compared to what youre used to hunting with every night?

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Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Petersburg, Tn. aka Redneck USA
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What some of yall dont realize is that crossbreeding isnt done to necessarily produce a winner right off the first litter. Its done to take dogs that pass breed standards and brred back to other black dogs to add something into the gene pool that the breed is missing. And regardless what blinders have made some believe, the breed is missing! Anybody that thinks they have what it takes to consistently beat the walker dogs, go to 6 or 7 PKC hunts, especially in southern middle tennessee and see how well you do. If you dont get in after a few hunts, that should tell ya. Going to 1 and getting lucky dont mean anything.

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Last edited by gfults on 03-20-2013 at 02:34 PM

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: ALABAMA
Posts: 765

gfults- are you saying we need to breed to walkers, english, plots, curs, redbones ...whatever, to get a better strike dog?

hardrock a first strike dog?

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Registered: Dec 2008
Location: tn
Posts: 3735

Fellas,Im neutral on what a man wants to hunt.If ya wanna hunt something
with a lil bit of walker in it that is fine.It is in the ped for everyone to see and make there mind up,if they want it or not.
I tried me one,just didnt work out for me,but good luck to anyone that is.

Fults,if ya need a lil more strike dog. I got Molly here she has always been a 1 st strike dog. She throws a quick strike dog. If ya wanna try one.I will be breeding her to Hammer real soon. I am figuring she will put that strike in her pups.Gene Hicks has 6 TIME ALBERT ,HE STRIKES QUICK ALSO.Just thought i would throw that out there to ya in case ya wanna breed a gyp to him .

Good luck with whatever ya decide buddy. I wish ya the best of luck at whatever ya do.Aint heard much from ya hope all is well.

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Lockridge Iowa
Posts: 2848

quote:

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Originally posted by gfults
What some of yall dont realize is that crossbreeding isnt done to necessarily produce a winner right off the first litter. Its done to take dogs that pass breed standards and brred back to other black dogs to add something into the gene pool that the breed is missing. And regardless what blinders have made some believe, the breed is missing! Anybody that thinks they have what it takes to consistently beat the walker dogs, go to 6 or 7 PKC hunts, especially in southern middle tennessee and see how well you do. If you dont get in after a few hunts, that should tell ya. Going to 1 and getting lucky dont mean anything.

---

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Registered: May 2012
Location: Asheville, North Carolina
Posts: 629

I've always been told that the first step in any recovery program is to admit you have a problem. All you people that think we need to add walker blood to the black & tans need to come out of the closet and admit you're really treeing walker men. By your own words treeing walkers are so much better than a black and tan. They strike quicker, run faster and hit the tree quicker than a black dog. You all complain you can't beat a walker with your dogs so instead of breeding that black female to that walker stud, just buy a walker pup from the stud owner, that way you can really compete with the walkers. If you still want to breed that female to the walker by all means do, just don't register the pups as black and tans (you need a 3 generation black and tan pedigree to single register). To register that cross bred litter would be falsification and would mean a ban from the UKC. Someone talked about all the dirty papered dogs in the 80's name some breeder names, back up those statements. I've hunted black dogs since the mid 70's, I don't recall all these crossbred dogs from back then. My name is Joe Allen and I approve this statement.

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Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Petersburg, Tn. aka Redneck USA
Posts: 1184

quote:

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Originally posted by BLACKNTANS
gfults- are you saying we need to breed to walkers, english, plots, curs, redbones ...whatever, to get a better strike dog?

hardrock a first strike dog?

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Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Petersburg, Tn. aka Redneck USA
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quote:

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Originally posted by J I Allen
I've always been told that the first step in any recovery program is to admit you have a problem. All you people that think we need to add walker blood to the black & tans need to come out of the closet and admit you're really treeing walker men. By your own words treeing walkers are so much better than a black and tan. They strike quicker, run faster and hit the tree quicker than a black dog. You all complain you can't beat a walker with your dogs so instead of breeding that black female to that walker stud, just buy a walker pup from the stud owner, that way you can really compete with the walkers. If you still want to breed that female to the walker by all means do, just don't register the pups as black and tans (you need a 3 generation black and tan pedigree to single register). To register that cross bred litter would be falsification and would mean a ban from the UKC. Someone talked about all the dirty papered dogs in the 80's name some breeder names, back up those statements. I've hunted black dogs since the mid 70's, I don't recall all these crossbred dogs from back then. My name is Joe Allen and I approve this statement.

---

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Last edited by gfults on 03-20-2013 at 07:01 PM

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