Registered: Jan 2008
Location: alabama
Posts: 351

I agree with Mr Bingham. I hope none of you other guys are judging me........Judge must ask for a call, when called minus for not calling dog on 3rd bark. He better strike and tree him, if not after 4 barks he is scratched...................

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quote:

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Originally posted by buck brush
i would call for a strick on dog D and score tree and give dog D what he had coming to him by the rules for the tree because he was there when i walked into tree, so he could end up _ both ways. and i would remind the handler that his dog needs to be struck on or before the 3rd bark .

Allen you should do this more often.

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There is one recurring mistake that I keep seeing here and you see it even more in the hunts. It is another one of those "PKC" mistakes, meaning a PKC rule that somehow gets carried over to UKC.
I'm talking about the "ask for a call and then minus he dog". In UKC, there is not one word in the rule book about asking for a call before minusing the dog. Both rules, 4(j) and 6(e) instruct how to judge a dog that has barked more than 3 times without being struck and there is nothing mentioned about asking for a call before minusing the dog or scratching it on the second offense.

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quote:

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Originally posted by rockett42
........Judge must ask for a call, when called minus for not calling dog on 3rd bark.

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Registered: Mar 2009
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Posts: 667

Rule book section 9 Handlers. It is the handlers responsibility to tell the judge when their dog opens and is treed.

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Registered: Apr 2009
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Posts: 209

Allen I hope your not asking this question because you didn't know the answer. Lol.

It's kind of like dropping a piece of candy on the playground look at everybody scramble and fight for it. Lol

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: North GA
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quote:

---

Originally posted by JiM
There is one recurring mistake that I keep seeing here and you see it even more in the hunts. It is another one of those "PKC" mistakes, meaning a PKC rule that somehow gets carried over to UKC.
I'm talking about the "ask for a call and then minus he dog". In UKC, there is not one word in the rule book about asking for a call before minusing the dog. Both rules, 4(j) and 6(e) instruct how to judge a dog that has barked more than 3 times without being struck and there is nothing mentioned about asking for a call before minusing the dog or scratching it on the second offense.

---

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Registered: Mar 2011
Location: Georgia
Posts: 217

ALLEN

Are you going to answer this question???? Or just let it countinue creating mass confusion.

Personally i think that on a 4 dog cast when 3 dogs are open & tree and the tree is closed; then that tree is dead!!!! If an when the cast reach the tree and the fourth dog which hasn't been seen or heard is there; just ignore him and handle the 3 dogs and proceed to score their tree!!!! Dog 4 has never been struck an is still open; if he leaves and strikes he can be called for first strike after the 3 dog tree is scored. If he stays, he is to be handled and carried with the other dogs to the next turn-out.

when the cast gets to the tree and see the dog, if he barks it makes no difference because the tree is already dead. Him and that tree have no conections.

Allen; before the week is out let us know what UKC thinks!!!!!!!


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Last edited by Plott55 on 02-14-2013 at 02:32 AM

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Registered: Oct 2006
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Posts: 583

Ok, here we go.

Had this been a situation where the dogs were cast, dogs A,B,and C were struck in and dog D was barking, could be heard but was not called on or before the third bark, after the first minute, dog D would be awarded next available and minused for the first offense. (Scratched on the second offense).

This is different,

Since the cast has got to the tree before anyone heard or saw the dog treeing. All dogs are to be handled. Dog D is shut out on this tree, so he can not recieve any strike points, but rule 4g is applied.

4g.
Dogs treeing, but not declared treed, when judge arrives, will be minused on tree points on "off" game or slick tree. Points will be determined by next available position in the case of one dog, or split available tree points in the case of two or more dogs. Dogs shut out on strike on slick tree or "off" game will recieve minus tree points only.

Thank you very much :-)

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Bengie Bengala
Ok, here we go.

Had this been a situation where the dogs were cast, dogs A,B,and C were struck in and dog D was barking, could be heard but was not called on or before the third bark, after the first minute, dog D would be awarded next available and minused for the first offense. (Scratched on the second offense).

This is different,

Since the cast has got to the tree before anyone heard or saw the dog treeing. All dogs are to be handled. Dog D is shut out on this tree, so he can not recieve any strike points, but rule 4g is applied.

4g.
Dogs treeing, but not declared treed, when judge arrives, will be minused on tree points on "off" game or slick tree. Points will be determined by next available position in the case of one dog, or split available tree points in the case of two or more dogs. Dogs shut out on strike on slick tree or "off" game will recieve minus tree points only.

I like this answer.... the only thing that doesnt work is that you may have to turn in a score card that shows dog D with tree points where no strike points have been recorded. MOH. will be scratching his head over that.

Thank you very much :-)

---

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I copied 4g right off of the back of the card. No strike points if a dog is shut out

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Bengie Bengala
I copied 4g right off of the back of the card. No strike points if a dog is shut out

---

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Location: Bourbon, Mo
Posts: 209

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bengie Bengala
I copied 4g right off of the back of the card. No strike points if a dog is shut out

---

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Registered: Jun 2012
Location: McRae Ar
Posts: 3701

He is minused for not calling the dog. It does not matter if he was shut out we have a rule telling us what to do. He received the minus before he was handled at the tree. The points that he had to strike for are then deleted when he is handled. But the minus before he was handled are not deleted.

If you are headed to the tree before you get there and hear him you know he has to be struck so what would be different about this?

Option 2

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Registered: Oct 2006
Location: Kinsman,Ohio
Posts: 583

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bengie Bengala
Ok, here we go.

Had this been a situation where the dogs were cast, dogs A,B,and C were struck in and dog D was barking, could be heard but was not called on or before the third bark, after the first minute, dog D would be awarded next available and minused for the first offense. (Scratched on the second offense).

This is different,

Since the cast has got to the tree before anyone heard or saw the dog treeing. All dogs are to be handled. Dog D is shut out on this tree, so he can not recieve any strike points, but rule 4g is applied.

4g.
Dogs treeing, but not declared treed, when judge arrives, will be minused on tree points on "off" game or slick tree. Points will be determined by next available position in the case of one dog, or split available tree points in the case of two or more dogs. Dogs shut out on strike on slick tree or "off" game will recieve minus tree points only.

Thank you very much :-)

---

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The assumption is that if the dog is treeing then he would have a lot more than three barks out if the handler did not strike it immediately upon seeing it. I could be wrong though, it might be a real sorry tree dog.

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Location: New Paris, Indiana
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quote:

---

Originally posted by Bengie Bengala
Correction,
Once the cast stops walking, sees and hears Dog D, he can still be struck on or before the cast hears his 3rd bark. Then his strike is deleted for being on a closed tree. You always have to strike your dog. Even though the dog was there, you have to be able to hear 3 barks from him. You can't just minus dog D's strike because you think he was barking the whole time. Then rule 4g comes into play.

If I'm off on this one then I give up. LOL. Ok Allen, what is it?????

---

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Registered: Oct 2006
Location: Kinsman,Ohio
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quote:

---

Originally posted by Allen / UKC
You are the judge on a four-dog cast. On the first drop of the night Dogs A, B and C are declared struck and treed. Dog D has not been declared struck. The tree is closed. When you are twenty yards from the tree you turn your light on the tree and see all four dogs, including Dog D (which you can also hear), treeing on the same tree. What's your next move?

If you choose option 4: Please explain further.

Have fun with it.

---

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All I know is one has to be struck if he's heard barking. Don't matter where its at. I would probably be a little bit lenient on his 3 barks if he was treeing everybreath. After I minused him the first time

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I've been in this situation several times before. If the handler can strike that dog before you inform him that his dog has 3 barks or before you can inform him that he is minused, fine. It never happens and Allen says nothing about the dog being struck in even after they see and hear him treeing. Before you can tell that handler he has 3 barks, more than three barks are gone and the judge has no reason to warn or tell him to strike his dog anyway. The dog is treeing, he isn't struck, he is minused, That's all there is to it. You can talk around it all night but you are still taking your minus if a competent judge has the card.

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IF DOG D IS NOT STRUCK IN:
Minus him after his 3 bark. If he barks 3 more times scratch him.

IF DOG D IS STRUCK IN ONCE SEEN TREEING BEFORE 3rd BARK:
Delete his strike points.

If slick/off game:
He goes in for next tree position and minused for the amount.

If circle tree:
Nothing on tree points.

If coon is seen:
Nothing on tree points.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Allen / UKC
You are the judge on a four-dog cast. On the first drop of the night Dogs A, B and C are declared struck and treed. Dog D has not been declared struck. The tree is closed. When you are twenty yards from the tree you turn your light on the tree and see all four dogs, including Dog D (which you can also hear), treeing on the same tree. What's your next move?

If you choose option 4: Please explain further.

Have fun with it.

---

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Registered: Feb 2005
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"You are the judge on a four-dog cast. On the first drop of the night Dogs A, B and C are declared struck and treed. Dog D has not been declared struck. The tree is closed. When you are twenty yards from the tree you turn your light on the tree and see all four dogs, including Dog D (which you can also hear), treeing on the same tree. What's your next move?"


If I was judgeing my next move would be "handle all dogs at tree",that includes D.
All scoreing and/or scratching of dog(s) will be done after u handle All dogs at tree.
Depending on how many times D has opened he mite be scratched,Allen didn't say how many times D opened, and I am not ASSumeing I know!

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Jim, I agree with you Allen did not say that dog D was struck in. What Allen said is that,when the cast was 20 yds from the tree, Dog D was seen and heard. The way I read this is that this is the first time dog D was heard barking. If dog D was heard barking before this, he would of already been called or minused. So my question is? if this is the first time the cast, or the handler heard dog D, doesn't he have 3 barks to call his dog struck?

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Option 2-
According to the poll percentages, more than half the time the wrong call is going to be made. That's sad but true!

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