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Location: Castleberry Alabama
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i am sure glad i live in Alabama

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Location: Burlington, CT
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quote:

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Originally posted by patches9452
simple... 1000 acres cost 10,000 a year to lease.... 10 deer hunters can lease it and all hunt at the same time..... 10 coon hunters lease the same land and you have a mess and not near enough land for 10 people to be able to hunt every night.... it takes lots of land to hunt a dog on.... most 1000 acre spots around her has 20 to 25 members to split the cost... can you imagine the headache of trying to coon hunt that land with that many people involved

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quote:

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Originally posted by deschmidt27
What is your point???

This thread is about the need to promote and protect our sport, not how much it costs to lease land, or how much land coon hunters need?!?

You started off, by blaming the commercialization of deer hunting, for why you can't find land to hunt. I've clearly anc concisely argued why it's not company's fault you can't find property. And explained the relationship between the popularity of a sport, and the amount hunters want to protect their interests.

So what point are you trying to make, other than complaining??? That's my point... we need to stop complaining and start doing something about it. I had a boss once, that said, "don't ever bring me a problem, without a proposed solution." His thought was that if you cared enough to complain, you should care enough to help find a solution.

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Location: Virginia
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Now I dont understand? You start off by asking why coon hunting doesnt compare to a more mainstream sport in this country and when people give you their opinions and reasons why they think it is not as popular as bass fishing you say they are complaining? There must be a reason for their "complaing" if its hard for them to find land to hunt on then yeah that is a negative for getting more people involved. And yes it takes more land for multiple coon hunters to hunt their hounds on than deer hunters sitting in a stand. How many neighborhoods do you know of that would allow a coon hunter to make a drop in in the suburbs? But they are all over the place letting archery hunters in to control deer numbers. How many bass fisherman could fish a 200 acre lake? Now how many coon hunters could hunt a 200 acre woods? Its not the whole issue holding coon hunting back but yes it is a big part of it.

And more to the issue of the "company's" they are there to make money PERIOD. If there is not a strong enough following they are not interested in putting out money for advertising, sponserships etc. Small game hunting and hunters are on the decline and have been for years why would they want to invest millions in that? I guess if you wanted to foot the bill yourself you could start a PR campaign to try and enlist more coon hunters and bring it into the limelight. I just dont see it happening. If you dont love hounds why would you do it? If I didnt have hounds I wouldnt be trudging through the woods all night with someone just in hopes to see a little ol raccoon. Most people have just gotten to **** lazy to chase hounds around all night and thats another issue preventing more people from becoming involved. Overweight and lazy is an epidemic in this country!

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Registered: Apr 2012
Location: Virginia
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quote:

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Originally posted by patches9452
simple... 1000 acres cost 10,000 a year to. ease.... 10 deer hunters can lease it and all hunt at the same time..... 10 coon hunters lease the same land and you have a mess and not near enough land for 10 people to be able to hunt every night.... it takes lots of land to hunt a dog on.... most 1000 acre spots around her has 20 to 25 members to split the cost... can you imagine the headache of trying to coon hunt that land with that many people involved

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Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Burlington, CT
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Yes, I asked why it wasn't comparable, and you guys started in on answering the question you would prefer to answer, which is apparently why it shouldn't be.

So let me see if I can summarize your guys points... they shouldn't be comparable, becasue we don't want more coon hunters, because there's already not enough land to go around. So... since there are more deer hunters, because of commercialization, we can't compete with them, and our response should not be to bolster our numbers so we can, but rather shrivel up and die.

It sounds like you guys are saying that there are two armies, and the problem is not the need to increase our numbers, but rather, the fact that someone funded the larger army???

Well that's not a solution, so in the words of my old boss, you must just be complaining. If we can't undo what drove up the deer hunter's "army" and we don't want to curl up and die, then what do you propose we do? By the way, this doesn't just affect you guys in your state!

And where I come from, I have all sorts of deer hunting firends that can't afford leases by themselves, so do you know what they do??? They band together, pool their money and resources and lease property as a group working together!

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quote:

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Originally posted by deschmidt27
Yes, I asked why it wasn't comparable, and you guys started in on answering the question you would prefer to answer, which is apparently why it shouldn't be.

So let me see if I can summarize your guys points... they shouldn't be comparable, becasue we don't want more coon hunters, because there's already not enough land to go around. So... since there are more deer hunters, because of commercialization, we can't compete with them, and our response should not be to bolster our numbers so we can, but rather shrivel up and die.

It sounds like you guys are saying that there are two armies, and the problem is not the need to increase our numbers, but rather, the fact that someone funded the larger army???

Well that's not a solution, so in the words of my old boss, you must just be complaining. If we can't undo what drove up the deer hunter's "army" and we don't want to curl up and die, then what do you propose we do? By the way, this doesn't just affect you guys in your state!

And where I come from, I have all sorts of deer hunting firends that can't afford leases by themselves, so do you know what they do??? They band together, pool their money and resources and lease property as a group working together!

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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: mid-michigan
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It all boils down to money......
You'll never get the sponsorship dollars for coon hunting simply because of money.
There are a TON of people who walk into WalMart every week and buy fishing lures and deer calls and scents , for less than 20 bucks.
If they decide they don't like those , they buy another one the next week.
The sponsors get a BIG return on their investment dollars.

What does coonhunting have to offer on their investments?

It would be kinda hard to convince people that they can win a hunt if they buy 'THIS' light , or "THAT" dog box , etc.
We all know the first thing you have to have is a dog. A dog that will show you some coon. Which is easier said than done.

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Registered: Apr 2012
Location: Virginia
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I think actual deer hunters play a very small role overall in any of the problems coon hunters face - but it is there. only real issue there is that they are willing to pay more for hunting land-fact. So I dont really get where you come up with the two army theory??? If you want the land they lease to run your coon hounds on pay up. I could care less. Anytime one of the clubs folds up and can't renew their lease we put that particular farm back up for lease and let preselected groups or clubs put in their offer and there is always a waiting list. They know what it takes to get land in this area and if they get it and abide by the contract they will have it until they no longer want it or they fold up. If getting leased land is no issue for anybody you would be welcome to put an offer in.

I still dont get what you want? you ask for the issues that fellow coon hunters face and why coon hunting doesnt compare to bass yet when they tell you what particular problems they have run into as a coon hunter you tell them that they are only complaining and that what they are saying isn't a solution.

If you wanted people to give you possible solutions to help solve the delimas that a coon hunter faces maybe that is the question that should have been asked! Not why is it so different than a BASS tournament.

What do you want to hear?

Land access - no problem for anyone.

Stigma attached to coon hunting and coon hunters by outsiders - no problem

Small game hunters numbers going down - no problem.

Competition between hunters for the smaller amount of huntable land than in years past - no problem.

Amount of land it takes to safely run a hound - no problem

Amount of money and time in the woods it takes to care for and train a hound - no problem

Now you should be happy we have no issues facing us and are one television series away from being equivalent to BASS!

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Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Burlington, CT
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I didn't ask about "possible solutions to help solve the delimas that a coon hunter faces" because that's not what I cared to discuss. Patches9452 took us down that path of his perceived problems and causes, and you followed.

What I asked, was:

"can anyone tell me the difference between B.A.S.S. tournaments and our competition events? I'm thinking the fisherman and coon hunter are cut from the same cloth, right? In fact many of them are one in the same. And... So how is it they are looked at so differently???"

And so far, neither of you have come even close to offering an answer or perspective! Jackbob42, just gave his perspective, but you guys managed to derail this thread for a whole page, until we made it back to that answer!

This thread was and still is about, promoting our sport and events, and why we can't follow the proven model of B.A.S.S.

If some of you want to complain about how many deer hunters there are, how much they have to spend on their leases, or why there's not enough land, how about you go start your own thread on those topics. But in my perspective, none of that is productive for our sport as a whole.

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quote:

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Originally posted by joey
It’s real simple, money. The B.A.S.S sponsors pay for most everything. The TV coverage, the advertisement the prizes, all of it. The only reason they do that is for advertisement. There are two reasons for advertisement, to get your name out there and compete with your competitors. Garmin is the only one of our vendors that can sink that kind of money in anything. The question they are going to ask is why? They really don’t have a serious competitor and everyone in the sport that would use one already knows about them. So why would they?

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Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Castleberry Alabama
Posts: 604

if i was yall id sell my dogs and do something else lmbo really

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Location: Virginia
Posts: 229

You promote something to grow it into something more. How can you promote something without first addressing the issues that are holding it back?

No kidding you didnt ask about possible solutions. That was a suggestion since you seemed unhappy with everyones "complaining" responses that only listed the issues facing coonhunters and were a reason that separates coon hunting from bass. you just carried on about them being a problem without a solution to the problem as you put it over and over again. So the best guess was that what you were then looking for were solutions not the issues themselves. You were getting the answers that holds coon hunting back and separats it from bass just didnt want to hear them....



Well maybe this will simplify it for you in terms that you can understand why coon hunting doesnt compare to BASS since getting down to the fundamental underlying reasons doesnt seem to be something you want to hear......

There is nowhere near the same amount of interest in coon hunting as there is in bass fishing. Never has been never will be!

There is nowhere near the same amount of money involved or to be made by any company in coon hunting as there is in bass fishing. Never has been never will be!

No corporation will ever invest more than they can get back and that is what they would be doing to throw a ton of money into coon hunting. Garmin is about the largest company that would be interested but then again selling a few hundred thousand to a few million alphas and astros isnt jack to what they will get out of their marine or aviation divisions. See how cheap your alpha is when on go to equip your plane or boat with electonics....

And just so I can understand....

If lack of land isnt an issue to you in growing the number of coon hunters and the sport as a whole where would you propose that all of the new hunters turn their dogs loose. You are absurd if you dont see this as a hurdle in growing the sport.How do you propose to grow something that has obvious limitations without addressing any of the problems first??? There are plenty of farms around here for sale from people still going belly up - any coon hunter that wants to get started can expect to pay anywhere from ~ 10 million -25 million for approximately 1200-1400 acres depending on exact location. Dont see it happening much.


Ive got more than enough land to hunt on but am always interested in more so let us all in on it when you figure it out.

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Location: Burlington, CT
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Michael - here are the thoughts behind the question:

- Joe, Shane and I have produced a national television show, that was on the air for 2 years. It was well accepted by most all of the houndsman (some wanted a few more blueticks!), and it received zero "hate mail" from any anti's. And in the time that we've been off the air, we have developed and designed multiple improvements to the content and production quality.

- We have been approached by a national network that would very much like to partner with us and a registry, to promote the registry, their events, and the sport in general.

- There would a cost to the registry and the producer to cover air time, but additional advertising throughout other shows on the network, would be promoting this new show, free of charge. Also, Public Service Announcements for the registry and the sport would be free of charge.

- We the producer could sign other sponsors, and advertisers to cover our other costs.

- The potential is in the registry signing new sponsors, or increased sponsorship of their events, since those events and the sponsors products and involvement would now be televised/advertised.

In other words, the existing sponsorship base, could fund such an endeavor without a whole lot more money invested. The success of the program, would prompt more sponsors to come on board and grow the events and participation.

This is not pie in the sky... I seriously doubt Toyota or Ranger, donated a package to the very first B.A.S.S. event. They grew over time.

To the rest of you... do you really think you're right in holding back the entire sport across this entire country becasue of your local real estate issue???

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Good luck to you and I really do mean it! All im trying to get across is the fact that to have forward movement in any organization you have to do what you can to be able to address or at least recognize any issues or restrictions that can prevent that upward trend because it is extremely easy to come crashing right back down if you are not prepared for it. I dont see how bringing certain issues up is holding anything back? If we can't talk openly amongst ourselves about certain issues that are holding us back as a whole and a sport we are most certainly doomed to fail. Maybe I am living in a vacuum in my little part of our country and the issues we face here are not as wide spread as I would have imagined and they won't hinder the growth in other areas as much as I would expect. I wouldnt expect you to face too many additional chanlenges in producing another outdoor themed television show but whether it can grow into something equivalent to BASS I still have my reservations. But you will never know if you don't try and only time will tell. Im sure if it hit the air everyone here would support it and im sure most already support any of the sponsers that would have any interest in funding it.

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There isn’t a sport out there that does not have its limitation’s, bad press and problem individuals. What Dave is talking about is creating something that as an organization can help with these problems. To shed a positive light on all the negative that has been brought up.
Our sport is on the top of the list to be shut down by anti’s next to trapping and dog fighting. You know what the only thing that will make a difference is? MONEY. So if something can be built so that the companies that have the deep pockets have a stake in the sport, they will be willing to help.
Right now all of our originations are on the local and state level. We do not have anything on the national level to lobby for us and our sport. If we could have something on the national level that lobbied for us we will last longer. The origination will need money and something like a TV show would bring in the sponsors to provide that money. It will give them a stake in our survival, and that is what we need.

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Whats the most expensive thing a coon hunter will buy next to a truck? A garmin.... they're already on board and making money off of us with very little invested in advertising with no real competition as you have already stated. Whats next for most, a light? Most of the people making and selling lights are extremely small and without much true horse power when it comes to throwing millions one way or another with the exception of tritronics, now a garmin held subsidiary. .... whats next an e collar? Garmins got the majority market again. what big money is left out there other than the dog food companies?

And yes that is the path that this thread has now taken but it is not how it started. It was asked why cant coon hunting be more like BASS? There are Far far more negatives that have been associated with coon hunting over the years than ever associated with any type of bass fishing! Not saying you cant get past it but you're gonna have a longer road to get there for sure!

Its worth a shot to rally the troops but it will never be accomplished without ALL hunters being involved - not just coon hunters. We are a minority within a minority!

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Alright folks, I planted this seed into Dave's head and let me explain the correlation between BASS and competition coon hunting...so maybe we can get to the answer Dave was looking for!

At some point in the past, a few folks that were dyed in the wool bass fishermen decided that they needed to determine who the best bass fisherman was....so they decided that a head to head match up would prove who was best....and competition bass fishing was born....not unlike the original group of coon hunters who had a burning desire to claim they had the best coon hound...

Not long after the seed was planted the competition bug spread....and one competition leads to several. Most competitions were small affairs, but each year there were a few "large" events. This transformed into local events (local B.A.S.S clubs have weeknight and weekend tournaments), State Championships, and Major Events.

Anyone see the dotted line between the two sports? Both have local clubs, local competitions, state level competitions, and national level competitions.

Now granted, there is a large amount of money at stake in the national BASS tourneys. And in other dog registries there is also large sums of money at stake. And really very few folks are fishing for a "title".

At the level I have described, B.A.S.S. and competition coon hunting basically walk the same path. Where the paths take different directions is the involvement of the parent organization.

As has been pointed out, the largest difference is in sponsorship. And yes, a fully equipped boat is a large investment...and you could easily spend thousands of dollars on fishing poles, line, lures, and other gadgets.

But the same can be said about coon hunting. We have evolved from plywood dog boxes and a rope lead strap, to dog boxes that are all aluminum, with built in coolers and some are equipped with electric fans....we ride around in pickup trucks, and you know what....most of us are involved in OTHER OUTDOOR ACTIVITIES.....we spend money just like deer hunters, bird hunters, and yes bass fisherman.

Granted, most of us don't buy our lead straps and dog collars from say...Cabela's....but I would venture to say that there are very few of us that haven't been shopping there or ordered from their catalog! Why wouldn't Chevy, Dogde, Ford, Toyota, Nissan, or any of the other auto manufacturers want to come to the party?

I will help you with an answer. BECAUSE WE HAVE NO UNIFIED VOICE. For goodness sake, this post is the perfect example. Someone makes a post to try to unify us, and gets blasted because deer hunters are leasing all of the land that we used to hunt on. What kind of unity is that? I looked, and both of the folks that were complaining about deer leases live within easy driving distance to State and/or Federal forestry land.

Up to this point, our registries have provided us with a way to competition hunt, but in reality...little else. They are registries, and they are a business and they have a single mission, to make money for the owners of the business....nothing wrong with that approach, but as for myself, and Dave....we believe that there is a void. The unified voice of our sport is missing.....

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Oak Ridge is correct i think he answered the question as good as anyone could. Now why cant we band together and try to get these sponsors such as the truck companies, Garmin, Cabelas, heck even Copenhagen. I have been a Copenhagen ad for fly fishing. I think part of it is us arguing and not being able to band together because we are all to busy fighting over things in our sport.

P.S. Im not saying we should support our young coon hunters to chew. just a thought.

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You're last post is right on Joe (OakRidge).

Coonhunters have never been a unified group. I doubt they ever will be. From simple coffee shop conversation, to bloodline selection, to breed choice, to hunting equipment options, to agreeing on how a competition cast unfolded.... seldom will you get any group of coonhunters from 2 to 2,000 agree on anything.

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Whew! lot said on this topic. After taking it all in...two things come to mind...

1) coonhunting is not a spectator's sport. To see the action first hand...you have to be fit enough to get to the dog.

2) The fishing is driven by the advertisers....how often do you sit down and say " I wanna watch this guy fish!"

You probably watch it because the weather isnt permitting for you to fish.

So if no one wants to watch it...why is it on tv?

Because...zebco, abu garcia, stren, blah blah blah
paid for it to be.

FISHING SHOWS ARE NOTHING BUT INFOMERCIALS.

Coonhunting simply lacks the interest needed to market to the masses.

You cant buy a 21 volt coonlight at WalMart!

I would prefer coonhunting have less publicity...more coons for my dog to chew on. Hunts are fun...but arent these hunts a lot like playing the lottery?

After all, its musical chairs as to which dog wins them...although lightning can strike twice.

Instead of trying to figure out how to model coonhunting after BASS.....ask yourself WHY you would want to.

Happy trails

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Posts: 2785

Progress has no master ... whatever makes a sport gain popularity and sponsors is beyond what anyone can control or take credit for .

If coonhunting was the type of sport to be able to make money on and get folks hooked .. it would have happened on it's own and nothing would have stopped it .


Coonhunting is tough ... you have to go through dogs , train dogs , hunt at night and work the next day ... etc , etc ... nothing about that appeals to anyone with much sense , lol.

You can pick up a Snoopy pole at WalMart and go catch fish in your leisure time and enjoy the sunrise ... even if you don't catch nothing you can have a good time ... now , you'd have to be half retarded to think there is any comparison between the two sports.

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quote:

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Originally posted by PtonPicker
Whew! lot said on this topic. After taking it all in...two things come to mind...

1) coonhunting is not a spectator's sport. To see the action first hand...you have to be fit enough to get to the dog.

2) The fishing is driven by the advertisers....how often do you sit down and say " I wanna watch this guy fish!"

You probably watch it because the weather isnt permitting for you to fish.

So if no one wants to watch it...why is it on tv?

Because...zebco, abu garcia, stren, blah blah blah
paid for it to be.

FISHING SHOWS ARE NOTHING BUT INFOMERCIALS.

Coonhunting simply lacks the interest needed to market to the masses.

You cant buy a 21 volt coonlight at WalMart!

I would prefer coonhunting have less publicity...more coons for my dog to chew on. Hunts are fun...but arent these hunts a lot like playing the lottery?

After all, its musical chairs as to which dog wins them...although lightning can strike twice.

Instead of trying to figure out how to model coonhunting after BASS.....ask yourself WHY you would want to.

Happy trails

---

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PtonPicker - Because many, inluding myself, fear that coon hunting is a dying sport. Certainly California is more radical than many states, but if they took away hunting bears with hounds, what will the take away next, and what other states will follow them??? Heck, hunting in general is in jeopardy, but at least many other sportsman are doing something about it. And in my mind the only way to protect the sport of hunting with hounds, is to organize, and the only way to organize is through mass media.

Brogy - yes, we are a fractured group, but who isn't??? Organization doesn't mean unanimous decisions. It simply means that there's one voice that represents what the majority is thinking. I'm assuming we can all agree that we don't want our dogs and guns taken away... well there is a good place to start!

And I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but almost every show out there, is an infomercial! Just some are less in your face about it. Watch a deer hunting show, and see how many times they pan over and zoom in on that utiity vehicle's logo. How many long shots, include less focus on the game and more zoom-in's on that scope. Watch any sitcom and count how many times, a veicles log is focused on. I watched Dallas the other night and found myself counting the number of Tahoe and Corvette logos that apparently required focus in every other shot!

If we want to be selfish, and focus on protecting our woods, as opposed to whether our children (not grandchildren) will be allowed to hunt anywhere, then do nothing. Keep your sport and your woods a secret, and enjoy it while it lasts! But if you care about your sport, and the potential for your grandchildren to enjoy it, then you better find away to make a difference!

In my humble opinion, that means promoting our sport to protect it. But promotion takes the support of partners, and to be honest, I don't care if my partners make money, as long as I get what I want, and that's a coon hunt with my grandchild some day!

And yes, there is more money to be made! Everyone seems to keep comparing it to the current situation. But if someone appealed more to the masses, they would gain market share, and profits would grow. As they should... you invest, you get to reap the benefits. And if it works for one product or service it will work for another. Someone just has to be the one to stand-out in a crowd. Or more importantly... care to do so!

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Last edited by deschmidt27 on 02-14-2013 at 05:29 PM

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It seems you have answered the question of WHY twice.

If I understood correctly...

1) to protect the sport
2) mo money

To that I would suggest....if you want to gain opposition...it is best to increase awareness.

As to the money aspect...you have a better chance playing scratch offs at the hunt while you are waiting for your dog to tree.

Instead of comparing it to BASS...Look at other forms of dog performance competition that have had some degree of success in gaining a public following for a potential model.

I would suggest greyhound racing. I mean, I see more in common with even horse racing and the Kentucky Derby and coonhunting than I do fishing.

Remember.......Bugs Bunny chasing the mechanical rabbit around the track...I say no to mechanical coons...LOL
publicity will surely increase opposition.

As for how to achieve your WHY a+b....

The solidarity should come from the existing structure of the sport...namely, the registries and clubs.

It is in their best interest to protect the sport and we should expect them to. After all, it isn't going to be protected by a majority vote, it will be protected the same as the interests of other minorities....through lobby money. Keeping lawakers in office that are avid hunters is the best course of action.

In consolation, I will say....things should improve as far as the financial benefits of the sport. Look at how far the Walker has come in the past few years in being recognized as a breed.
This, my friend, certainly shows progress for the sport.

All that being said, I am more interested in re-living that first time I showed up at a tree....
with my dog trying to climb it vertically and it sounding like I stepped on his foot the way he was whelping....and that blood in his eye for that big ole nasty buck coon that's eyes were reflecting in my proud eyes......
than winning any amount of money or gaining sponsorship.

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