Registered: Mar 2005
Location: Owosso MI
Posts: 747

i got teh 220 now but wanting to upgrade to the alpha an kinda tossin around the idea about the sportdog the only thing that does suck from the soundings of it so far is the like u said no maps...

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Registered: Sep 2003
Location:
Posts: 3791

AGREE....TAKES A LITTLE TO GET USE TO IT...WATCH THE CLASSIFIED SOMETIMES THERES A GOOD DEAL ON THERE ON THEM...

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Registered: Jul 2010
Location:
Posts: 104

quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
What is "ready to compete"?
You hear that one allot. I got news for yah fellas, the day only dogs that are comp ready show up, you might just as well start the pie auctions because you won't get enough entries to pay the coffee bill.

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Registered: Oct 2012
Location: burnt district MO/KS border
Posts: 787

the sad facts are:

1) very few hunters are trainers (even at a level of basic understanding of dog behavior)

2)there is an element in the sport to whom twisting the rules to all out cheating are considered just as acceptable means to win as tallent on the end of there lead.


the result is very few dogs ever reach even the limits of there breeding, let alone the final polish of training.

most are just turned loose for x number of nights/hrs and what comes out of is what there is :/....or even worse tech is used to replace the lack of talent on the trainers part

no amount of tech or rules are going to change either aspect :/

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Registered: Sep 2005
Location: palmyra mo
Posts: 1958

blackflaginit
I agree 10x ...
Well put!! I know a few that dont even know there own dog

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Registered: Jul 2005
Location: SUGARCREEK OHIO
Posts: 145

you can not take the transmitter with a shock system ...wen your in a hunt ....if u do u will get scratched......so dont use the alpha use the garmin only an turn the hand held off.....rules r rules .........wat good is a rule book if u dont go by it ...same as baseball tournements....... uhave a rule book

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Registered: Jan 2009
Location: gordonsville va
Posts: 234

quote:

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Originally posted by amazingcursouth
i have always felt that if you got a dog you feel is ready to compete it should not need a shocker period. that work needs to be done training, pleasure hunting in order to get a dog ready for the hunts. some dogs i have seen are collar broke and if they don't have a shocker on them they are totally different dogs. they are remote TRAINERS not dog collars.

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paul

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Registered: Oct 2011
Location:
Posts: 389

This is probably one of the best threads I've seen on here, and the topic of E-collars/Tracking collars is a highly debatable subject. I feel that in the future the use Tracking systems will be allowed due to smaller tracks of land and grumpy land owners. I think we all can agree that we each care for sport & and dogs. With that being said I see many benefits of using a Tracking system and few negative effects. How nice would it be to know that your GrNiteCh is getting close to a major road and be able to catch him before he gets hit? Even if you had to get minused or scratched for catching him! At least you'd still have your prized dog! Are say it could save the whole cast a lot of trouble if the dogs were getting over on some posted land.
As far as people using them to cheat I really don't see how that could be possible IF they're allowed. I know my garmin will showed treed a lot when my dog hasn't even opened his mouth! He's just staying in a close area working a track or is having a hard time getting through some brush or water. If somebody does in fact look at their garmin and it did show treed and they do in fact tree their dog, so what.. No big deal to me... All that means is his dog is in fact treed and he had a better night than me! My dog is more important to me than any hunt. Whether you get cheated are not everybody in the cast knows who's dog really did better! JMO Any thoughts? Not meaning to upset any one just curious!

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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

Interestingly, PKC ruled the Alpha will be treated the same as the Astro, you can carry it but cannot be powered on when the clock is running. Violation is a barring offense. But of course PKC doesn't have "Honor Rules".

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AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
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Registered: Oct 2011
Location:
Posts: 389

I wish UKC and Garmin/Tri-Tronics would put several cast of good honest people together and give every handler/dog a tracking system and hold several hunts using them and then ask the people involved if it honestly made a difference. If so was it a positive or negative difference! I'm really try'n hard to seeing the down side of using them in a competition hunt. Is it just that the hand held shows your dog treed? You can change the setting and disable the sitting, on point, & treed enhancement. Just have the judge periodocally check if they think the treed mode is being used.
Me personally I'd rather a handler that has a dog with aggressive behavior have a E-collar on his dog! At least he could stop him from fighting. Let's be honest, how many dogs out there got a title simply because they are aggressive? I know of 5 or 6 times with in the last year that a few dogs that have been aggressive were simply asked to with draw in stead of being scratched! Where's the honor in that? If they could use a E-collar maybe they could have stopped the fights? They should still be scratched for aggressive behavior, but the E-collar might have kept the know aggressor from hurting or ruining another man's dog. I think there could be happy medium/solution to this debate. How about a collar that only shows the dogs location? With no " Treed " option? It almost seems like people are scared of them and what they'll show.

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Registered: Jun 2012
Location:
Posts: 38

quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
But of course PKC doesn't have "Honor Rules".

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Registered: Oct 2012
Location: burnt district MO/KS border
Posts: 787

these types of debates have been going on for as long as there have been nighthunts.

what i have always found interesting is that nighthunts are in the exception to almost all other types of evaluation systems for performance breeds, in that the handler plays as big or bigger role as the dog being evaluated....(although to a lesser extent UKC bench shows also weigh heavy on a handlers "tallent" as it were)

in almost all other registrys and events (other than "coonhound events and registrys") the focus and the score is almost strictly on the dogs merits alone.


and its coonhound events where new tech or "training aids" is always an issue

i played this game for 25yrs, and i have won more than my share. now days i dont even transfer papers into my name let alone waste time at events........i prefer the ol way of evaluation ie: the .22 and sharp knife test.

its a pass or fail system that waste far less time finding the truth about a hounds ability or lack of it....those who pass, eat. those who fail.....just dont come back home

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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

If you were entering nite hunts to evaluate dogs, you were missing the boat before you ever left. It isn't an evaluation, it's a competition.

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AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
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Registered: Nov 2005
Location: arkansas
Posts: 723

No honor rules .

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Did you come to win.

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Registered: Oct 2011
Location:
Posts: 389

I can some what see the controversy of E collars but not a GPS. Can some one please give a good reason not to allow a regular garmin in a nite hunt. And don't say the tree mode. Anybody who uses a garmin will tell you it'll show tree if your is in the dog box or just staying in one area, so I'm throwing the flag on that! I'm just curious how it could be used to cheat. Not try'n to upset any one. I see many benefits of it's use but really no down side. People use them religiously every time they pleasure hunt but when it comes time to competition hunt the same people don't want them allowed! How come? Scared of getting caught calling another man's dog? Somebody please explain this to me!

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Registered: May 2007
Location: NW Iowa
Posts: 311

Not sure I understand UKC ruling that you can't use the Alpha in a hunt. Does the E collar function with the handheld turned off? If yes then I can see why they say the rules now don't allow for it. But if the handheld has to be on to use the ecollar part of the alpha this would make it illegal no matter what kind of tracking system you are using regardless of ecollar capabilities. IMO the "honor rule" about having the handheld off would cover both the shocker and the tracker on this system so why would the rule be different from a normal garmin.

I'm not advocating the use of a training collar during the hunts, just saying if the handheld has to be off so you can't track the dog and on so you can shock it........ that device is already limited to "time out use only" due to the tracking part. So it makes no sense to me to treat this device different than a tracker. I don't have an Alpha so maybe it does work with the handheld off. If so I understand the rule, if not it seems silly to have a rule about something that would already be breaking the rules.

Joseph, I have long been an advocate for the use of trackers in the hunts to help keep the dogs safe and to help better judge them by staying closer to them. I don't believe you can cheat me anyway using your tracker that you couldn't cheat me without it. No tracking system I have ever used helped my dogs tree any coons. But it has helped me better judge what they are doing, keep them off of roads and out of peoples yards. I really hope I live to see the day UKC embraces the benefits of allowing hunters to keep the dogs safer by using the technology that 90% of coon hunters use every night they hunt during the week. If you were selling a nice young hound and someone came to try him out would you give them the option to see him go with no tracking collar on? Would you let them take your dog on trial if the said they wouldn't use a tracker so they could be sure he was competition ready? Seems ridiculous not to use the tracker in every situation you turn a dog loose to go hunting.... so why should a sanctioned hunt be any different?

Tim MACHA has a signature on here that states:
Good people don't need laws, and bad people will always find a way to break them. I think this statement says allot in regards to why tracking devices should be allowed to be used in the hunts. I know you have to have rules to go by to judge a group of dogs in a hunt. But not allowing something good because someone may cheat seems to defeat the purpose since the cheater will likely find a way to cheat anyway. While the only one being punished is the guy that wouldn't cheat either way.

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Last edited by Cornbelt on 10-11-2012 at 10:22 AM

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Registered: Aug 2010
Location: Troy NC
Posts: 2288

If the training unit was removable this would be a different thread. Yes the prongs are removable from the unit and if they are removed and judge agrees they are removed i say let them use the unit. Just as sportdog e unit is completely removable and when removed the tracker can be used alone in the hunts

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Danny VunCannon
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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: S. Ga.
Posts: 4608

Removing the prongs does not totally disable its use.

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James Lawrence, Big Slough Kennels

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Registered: Jan 2006
Location: mn
Posts: 513

quote:

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Originally posted by amazingcursouth
If the training unit was removable this would be a different thread. Yes the prongs are removable from the unit and if they are removed and judge agrees they are removed i say let them use the unit. Just as sportdog e unit is completely removable and when removed the tracker can be used alone in the hunts

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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

What is the diff between sneaking out your tracker and sneaking out you e-transmitter?

We have a rule that says you can carry your tracker, it just can't be powered on during time in. Violations can result in being barred. Why not just use the same rule for e-transmitters?

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Registered: Jun 2007
Location:
Posts: 1176

Joseph, The disadvantage of cheating, using the garmin during a hunt, is for exsample. Say my dog is treed 700 yrds to the south, your dog is treed 700 yrds to the north. I look at my garmin and know I have to get the cast to walk south so we can hear my dog so I can tree him. So we walk that way and I tree my dog. We score him. You are left not knowing if your dog is running or treeing or even if he's in the woods at all. So I win cause we never hear your dog and you never get to tree him. I know for a fact that an @kc world hunt was won like this.

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Registered: May 2007
Location: NW Iowa
Posts: 311

quote:

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Originally posted by River Birch Run
Joseph, The disadvantage of cheating, using the garmin during a hunt, is for exsample. Say my dog is treed 700 yrds to the south, your dog is treed 700 yrds to the north. I look at my garmin and know I have to get the cast to walk south so we can hear my dog so I can tree him. So we walk that way and I tree my dog. We score him. You are left not knowing if your dog is running or treeing or even if he's in the woods at all. So I win cause we never hear your dog and you never get to tree him. I know for a fact that an @kc world hunt was won like this.

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Registered: Oct 2012
Location: burnt district MO/KS border
Posts: 787

quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
If you were entering nite hunts to evaluate dogs, you were missing the boat before you ever left. It isn't an evaluation, it's a competition.

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Registered: Feb 2012
Location:
Posts: 866

that must be why these big name world beaters strike on off game and get plussed when they run across a coon. thats promoting?

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Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 2078

why not allow both a tracker & an e-collar in the hunts? let the best trained dog n handler win all the while u can train ur dog 2 b even a better coonhound.

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