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zace
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Registered: Jul 2004
Location: MN
Posts: 377

Easy there fella's.

This is turning into what is probably one of the most intelligent threads on breeding on this board.

Lets not get it deleted.

For reference compare kemmer, or Jadg's, or GSPs, GS's (real working ones),.......

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Old Post 01-30-2006 11:14 PM
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sheepster
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quote from rip

Justin, yes you most certianly can "remove" a gene from a lineage. It's been done a blue million times. You don't remove it from a single animal, you remove the animals carrying that gene from the gene pool.



so when is all this face barking and growling gonna get REMOVED????? huh????

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Old Post 01-30-2006 11:19 PM
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Darren Hollis
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Registered: Jul 2005
Location: Winfield, ALABAMA
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ZACE

Thanks man, When we can discuss breeding without all agreeing on what is best.I got lucky in my opinion with my Frosty female.Her whole litter made decent coonhounds.This is from a complete outcross.To keep this blood up close I am seriously thinking of trying it.Like I said before I know that this is a sore spot for some folks.(SORRY NORTHERNBLU).If you study what Dave Dean has done over the years it ain't far from what we are discussing.Do you hunt Northern Blue Hammer stock?Not meant to be offensive, just wanted to know what you are hunting.Thanks in advance for your input on this sublect.
Darren

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Old Post 01-30-2006 11:22 PM
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mrbluedog
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Registered: Aug 2005
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Darrin go for it my dad just bought a nice female that is a half sister to my male and dont think for a minute that were not making the cross if you like it breed but cull hard

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Old Post 01-30-2006 11:22 PM
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Darren Hollis
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Registered: Jul 2005
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Sheep

Hey sheep, I think some of this face barking and agressiveness is blamed on breeding when it is actually handler misshandling.I don't have to pet my hounds up at the tree to make them tree hard, they do it naturally.I have never been scratched in a hunt but I don't go into a tree and start petting and rubbing dogs, trees, shaking bushes etc.I rub my dogs on the head and tell them good job.We have alot af tree in our hounds, so you only make them FIRE UP doing all the petting.I agree there are agressive hound out there that are probably bred in them but alot are made that way by mistakes in handling.
Darren

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Ch GrNtCh PR Frost Hollow Strap
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ChGrNtCh PR Southern Blue Spanky ( Hollis & Hollis)
PR Southern Blue Cobb (NtChCh Uchtmans Andy x Ratliffs Blue Tell)
PR Southern Blue Betsy (Goose x Dual Grand Cotton)
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Old Post 01-30-2006 11:29 PM
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sheepster
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you are probably right about some dogs. Heres what you do. Go with me and my female and you do whatever you want to do to her aside from physically abusing her and do your very best to get her to face bark another dog or growl at another dog and if you can do it you can have my dog. deal????

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Old Post 01-30-2006 11:31 PM
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jodaviess1
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Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Jodaviess Co. N.W. IL.
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DON'T KNOW WHERE IT IS COMING FROM

SHEEP, I HEAR YOU TALK ALOT ABOUT MEAN DOGS. WHAT ARE THEY OUT OF. WHAT ARE YOU HUNTING THEM WITH WHEN THEY ARE YOUNG? COULD BE HEREDITY OR HUMAN ERROR OR BOTH.
A GOOD EXAMPLE, THERE ARE SOME GUYS AROUND MY AREA THAT HAVE SOME BLUEDOGS AND THEIR MAIN DOG MADE DUAL GRAND. THEY HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO GET A YOUNG DOG WORTH HAVING FOR YEARS CAUSE THEY TRY AND START THEM WITH THE OLD DUAL GRAND DOG. HE ISN'T A FULL BLOWN GATOR, BUT A PUP INTIMIDATOR YES. I HAVEN'T SEEN A MEAN DOG OUT OF THE LINE OF DOGS WE HUNT FOR YEARS. ALOT OF HOW THEY ARE HANDLED AND WHAT THEY ARE PUT WITH AT THOSE KEY AGES WILL BRING IT OUT IF IT IS THERE AT ALL. IF IT IS THERE FOR REAL IT WILL COME OUT AND IT IS ONLY A MATTER OF TIME. JUST CURIOUS AND NOT MEANT TO STIR UP ANYTHING. THANKS. PERRY

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Old Post 01-30-2006 11:32 PM
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TN-steve
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Registered: Dec 2005
Location: east,TN
Posts: 1435

so is my boston terrier pups going to be one eyed 8 legs,with kitty and a dong,and three tailed pup or what,,this is starting to scare me

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Old Post 01-30-2006 11:32 PM
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Russell Boyette
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Registered: Oct 2005
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Darren, i was about to say that David seemed to have pretty good successline-breeding & in-breeding from Joe.

Im sure Jarvis Umphers is happy with his in-bred hound, Hub's Homer. He does alot of winning with him anyway.

If you have one come out with 3 heads, holler at me. I know a guy, who knows a guy, who knows a guy that works for Ripley's Believe-it-or-not. We can go in on the halves, and never have to work again!!!!!! LOL

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Old Post 01-30-2006 11:34 PM
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sheepster
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well, just how I feel, a "pup intimidator" as you call it. I wouldn't own a dog that tried to run a puppy off the tree. But thats just me. A dog should be focused on ONE THING AND ONE THING ONLY. UP, UP, UP, UP, UP THAT TREE. Not on the end of another dogs nose or on top of the dogs head. Everybodys different but this is just how I feel about it.

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Old Post 01-30-2006 11:35 PM
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Darren Hollis
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Location: Winfield, ALABAMA
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I agree with you sheep

Some dogs just are alot calmer than others.I can tell you one thing,if you go to several trees and start slapping and petting up my hounds you will have problems.They are hard tree dogs by nature and if I see any agressiveness it is dealt with harshness.But I can't go in like have seen some of these guys do and slap and pet on these dogs.
Darren

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Ch GrNtCh PR Frost Hollow Strap
ChNtCh PR Southern Blue Hardwood Dolly
ChGrNtCh PR Southern Blue Spanky ( Hollis & Hollis)
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PR Southern Blue Betsy (Goose x Dual Grand Cotton)
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Old Post 01-30-2006 11:35 PM
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sheepster
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I understand. But let me ask you. You seem to be a responsible person. Now keep in mind I'm only asking a question here, I'm not implying ANYTHING. I'm just asking. What do you think is going on at that tree before you show up??????? Do you think that they are focused on whats up the tree??? Or do you think there focused on those other dogs????

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Old Post 01-30-2006 11:37 PM
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Darren Hollis
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Registered: Jul 2005
Location: Winfield, ALABAMA
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UP UP UP UP

I know my hounds are focused up.I know the difference in treeing and face barking.I can tell you if my hound is blowing or if they are treeing.I can tell you just about every move they make bacause I hunt them hard every week.I will tell you that they will not be run off no tree by no hair-pulling Intimidater tree dog.I can tel you that I will not hunt one if he can't get split or find a way to get away from those kinds of dogs.My hounds are VERY independant and I usually go to the tree where they are alone anyway.
Darren

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HOME OF:
GrChGrNtCh PR Southern Blue S&H’s Goose (Sparks&Hollis)
GrChGrNtCh PR Southern Blue Hardwood Cotton
GrNtCh PR Mose's Pink Floyd ( Co-Owned with Scott V)
Ch GrNtCh PR Frost Hollow Strap
ChNtCh PR Southern Blue Hardwood Dolly
ChGrNtCh PR Southern Blue Spanky ( Hollis & Hollis)
PR Southern Blue Cobb (NtChCh Uchtmans Andy x Ratliffs Blue Tell)
PR Southern Blue Betsy (Goose x Dual Grand Cotton)
(REST IN PEACE)
GrNtChGrCh PR Southern Blue Moonshine
GrNtChGrCh PR Southern Blue Frostbite
NtChGrCh PR Southern Blue Queen
NtChGrCh PR Blue Eyes Blue Jessie
NtCh PR Southern Frost Hollow Blue Bell(BB)
NtCh PR Southern Blue Hammer
NtCh PR Hollis' Southern Blue Maggie
NtCh PR Hollis' Bull Mtn. Pearl
GrCh PR Southern Blue Jet
PR Southern Blue Sam
PR Southern Blue Rattler
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Old Post 01-30-2006 11:42 PM
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sheepster
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sounds like you got some fine hounds.

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Old Post 01-30-2006 11:43 PM
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TN-steve
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Registered: Dec 2005
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hey darren,,how much a dog like that cost,,i might need to buy one,if mine don't come around in about 4-5 months,,,,steve

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Old Post 01-30-2006 11:45 PM
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hoplong
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Registered: Dec 2005
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Posts: 60

Inbreeding

For whats it worth i made an uncle xneice cross soon to be five
years ago.Not only did the pups measure up in looks, but also
has what it takes in the woods.Also pups out of these dogs that
is the uncle xneice cross are doing better yet.Do your research.
don't be afraid to cull,and good luck to you!

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Old Post 01-30-2006 11:47 PM
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Rip
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

Now if you REALLY want to talk to someone that has an extensive knowledge of genetics then we need to get Mr. Larry Atherton on here. I have a good background and feel confident with my understanding of genetics, but Larry has much more knowledge on the subject than I do.

His idea of fun is to read the actual journals and studies for himself. Me I'd rather someone like him teach me as opposed to reading all those articles and crunching numbers LOL. He has a wealth of information, let's hope he decides to pop in on us.

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Old Post 01-30-2006 11:55 PM
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Darren Hollis
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Registered: Jul 2005
Location: Winfield, ALABAMA
Posts: 2937

Thanks Hoplong and sheep

Sheep I know what you mean.there are some dogs out there that can stay treed without getting into trouble.What does your female do with an agressive dog?Will she move around or leave the tree?I had a male here htat would not stay, but would come back to the tree when I got there.the rest of the noght he would just hang around the other dogs, half hearted running a track.He would not get away from the agressor, but he would not tree with him either.He could tree coons regular, but he just could not figure out what to do with an agressive dog.these hunts have a bad reputation for harboring agressive dogs,but I can tell you there are alot more good natured dogs than ill dogs.I have hunted in the hunts now for about 14 or 15 yrs.
HOPLONG- I think I will try it.Anyone that knows me can tell you that I cull harshly.
Darren

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GrChGrNtCh PR Southern Blue Hardwood Cotton
GrNtCh PR Mose's Pink Floyd ( Co-Owned with Scott V)
Ch GrNtCh PR Frost Hollow Strap
ChNtCh PR Southern Blue Hardwood Dolly
ChGrNtCh PR Southern Blue Spanky ( Hollis & Hollis)
PR Southern Blue Cobb (NtChCh Uchtmans Andy x Ratliffs Blue Tell)
PR Southern Blue Betsy (Goose x Dual Grand Cotton)
(REST IN PEACE)
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Old Post 01-31-2006 12:02 AM
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Darren Hollis
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Registered: Jul 2005
Location: Winfield, ALABAMA
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NtChPR Pond's Blue Joker

I beleive he was from an Inbreeding.He was also a pretty good reproducer!
Darren

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HOME OF:
GrChGrNtCh PR Southern Blue S&H’s Goose (Sparks&Hollis)
GrChGrNtCh PR Southern Blue Hardwood Cotton
GrNtCh PR Mose's Pink Floyd ( Co-Owned with Scott V)
Ch GrNtCh PR Frost Hollow Strap
ChNtCh PR Southern Blue Hardwood Dolly
ChGrNtCh PR Southern Blue Spanky ( Hollis & Hollis)
PR Southern Blue Cobb (NtChCh Uchtmans Andy x Ratliffs Blue Tell)
PR Southern Blue Betsy (Goose x Dual Grand Cotton)
(REST IN PEACE)
GrNtChGrCh PR Southern Blue Moonshine
GrNtChGrCh PR Southern Blue Frostbite
NtChGrCh PR Southern Blue Queen
NtChGrCh PR Blue Eyes Blue Jessie
NtCh PR Southern Frost Hollow Blue Bell(BB)
NtCh PR Southern Blue Hammer
NtCh PR Hollis' Southern Blue Maggie
NtCh PR Hollis' Bull Mtn. Pearl
GrCh PR Southern Blue Jet
PR Southern Blue Sam
PR Southern Blue Rattler
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Old Post 01-31-2006 12:08 AM
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sheepster
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Darrenn, my dog cant handle an aggressive dog. If they will stay on the tree and face bark then she may just back up and tree and be fine. But the kind that will turn there tail towards the tree just to jump in a dogs face, ........... she'll leave the country and wont act right with that dog period. I mostly pleasure hunt, which is where me and the old girl is headed now. Talk to yall later.

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Old Post 01-31-2006 12:09 AM
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sheepster
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I must say though, it makes me feel good to go with folks pleasure hunting and then later on they want me to go with them so they can use my dog to train there pups with. That in and of itself lets me know what kinda dog I own.

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Old Post 01-31-2006 12:11 AM
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Rob Ellett
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As dog breeders, we engage in genetic "experiments" each time we plan a mating. The type of mating selected should coincide with your goals. To some breeders, determining which traits will appear in the offspring of a mating is like rolling the dice - a combination of luck and chance. For others, producing certain traits involves more skill than luck - the result of careful study and planning. As breeders, we must understand how we manipulate genes within our breeding stock to produce the kinds of dogs we want. We have to first understand dogs as a species, then dogs as genetic individuals.

When evaluating your breeding program, remember that most traits you're seeking cannot be changed, fixed or created in a single generation. The more information you can obtain on how certain traits have been transmitted by your dog's ancestors, the better you can prioritize your breeding goals. Tens of thousands of genes interact to produce a single dog. All genes are inherited in pairs, one pair from the father and one from the mother. If the pair of inherited genes from both parents is identical, the pair is called homozygous. If the genes in the pair are not alike, the pair is called heterozygous.

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Rob Ellett
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Inbreeding

Inbreeding seems to scare the beejabbers out of some people. For those people who cannot destroy defective dogs, it should. For those serious breeders who can cull and carry on, it will eventually become an option. It is an extremely useful tool for diagnosing what genes are present. If the genes for bad eyes are present, but hidden or resessive, this will bring them out to their full extent. If there isn't any bad genes, then the puppies will be of very close uniformity and very able to reproduce themselves (theroretically).The resulting puppies will have a lot of genetic material that is the same as their parents and grandparents and will be close genetically to each other.

What is meant by inbreeding is this; breeding two dogs that are closer than cousins. Typically the
combinations are brother/sister, father/daughter, mother/son, and on the looser side, cousin to cousin, grandfather/granddaughter, half-brother and halfsister. You get the idea. The dogs should have or be common ancestors. People disgree about the exact point at which inbreeding becomes linebreeding but inbreeding is the quickest way to find out what poor genes are in the line and what dominant characteristics are in the line.

Genetically what inbreeding does for you is concentrate the traits in your stock, both good and bad and that is stressing good and bad. The bad is as important as the good. While you are fixing all those good traits in your population, a hidden trait may crop up that can wipe you out if you aren't careful. This is the down side of inbreeding. When those traits appear, the affected animal must be removed from the breeding program.

Inbreeding doesn't introduce new genes and does not eliminate bad genes that the line already has. It only shifts them around like a rubix cube. This often results in litters with high show potential, if the quality was high to begin with. It shows you what recessives you have lurking in the dogs' backgrounds, both good and bad. But there are drawbacks. Besides the possibility of bad recessives, inbreeding exclusively over time will eventually lead to infertility. It's like a xerox machine. After so many copies, you have to renew the ink. The same with dogs, you have to introduce new genes. No reputable breeder will use inbreeding exclusively, and many breeders simply never use it.

Inbreeding increases homozygosity and decrease heterozygosity. Homozygosity means that certain traits will double up so that no matter what the dog is bred to it will carry on those specific traits. Heterozygosity means that more genes will be in a single dose and less likely to show up in any given trait. So inbreeding can duplicate both desirable and harmful genes, both of which can be unsuspected in the line, and may appear. Inbreeding does NOT create anomalies, it brings present anomalies to the surface. Even when the anomalies are present, inbreeding might not reveal them. However, once revealed, then the breeder can do something about them in the next generations of breeding.Usually, you will only find: very experienced breeders, ignorant breeders, and puppy mills making use of this technique.

Let's say that you've been inbreeding for a couple generations and you now have a genetic defect in your entire breeding population. Keep inbreeding, looking for those one or two clear animals and use them because they are almost exclusively clear of the problem. An increase in harmful recessives is undesirable but it is not a major drawback if they are identified early. The effect of inbreeding on major polygenic traits is greater. Generally, traits that are highly inherited or ones which are many genes added together to produce the defects, are not adversely affected by inbreeding but, traits under non-additive control, especially those tied to dominance and not of high heritability, are often markedly harmed by inbreeding.

Inbreeding is not for the faint of heart or those unwilling to keep their pups long enough to make
positive assessments. But for those who are breeding with a goal in mind, it gives them much greater
control over their gene pool and a direction to head towards knowing what exactly they are dealing with in thier dogs.

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Old Post 01-31-2006 12:12 AM
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Rob Ellett
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Location: Armstrong,IL
Posts: 3348

Line breeding

Line breeding is when the sire and the dam are distantly related: grandsire to granddaughter, granddam to grandson, second cousins, half cousins, uncle to niece, aunt to nephew. The general strategy is that there is a common ancestor that is being doubled up on both sides. So the desired dog appears several times in the pedigree which is of excellant quality in everyway.

This is probably the most common strategy in breeding purebred dogs (and in developing new breeds, for that matter). Through this method, new genes are slowly introduced and unwanted genes are slowly replaced. The actual rate varies by how strongly you line breed. It sacrifices little overall quality in terms of show quality. Usually the puppies are rather close in general conformation. The only problem with this method is that it often takes several generations to get poor genes out, (or adding desired genes in) resulting in many puppies that have the same genetic problems (or virtues) that their parents have. And then because some breeders are more interested in winning, they do not place the affected puppies on spay/neuter contracts. This is both a blessing and a curse for the breed. If the breeder is very careful, affected pups can be used wisely to prevent loss of quality, but still remove the affected genes by only breeding the affected pups to known non-carrier relatives. This way the breeder can again try to "edit out" the bad genes. This process results in dogs that will often reproduce their same level of quality. This is refered to as reaching homozygous litters (more genes of the same kind apparent in the puppies) and thus more uniformity.

Inbreeding and linebreeding really differ only in degree. Linebreeding is less likely to cause harm than inbreeding. Inbreeding is not for novices. Knowledge of genetics and the breed is required for success. For good results it must be well-planned and breeders must be ready for whatever problems it presents.

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Old Post 01-31-2006 12:14 AM
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Rob Ellett
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Armstrong,IL
Posts: 3348

Outcrossing

Outcrossing is where the sire and dam are totally unrelated, preferably for three or four generations. The true form of an outcross is between two entirely different breeds because in reality the members of most registered breeds come from a common ancestor (althought it may be many, many generations back). It is very rare for outcrossed puppies to be uniform in appearance. Usually there are a very large ranges of sizes, coats, colors, markings, and other distinctive characteristics. Outcrossed litters are generally heterozygous, and do not reliably reproduce themselves, so even the nicest puppy in the litter may not produce the best puppies.

Outcrossing is generally used to introduce something new to a line -- a better head, better colors, better front, etc. Usually the puppies retained from these breedings are bred back into the breeder's original line to standardize them back into the line's general characteristics and reproducibility -- with the one desired characteristic. The tricky part is that other characteristics may come along for the ride!

If you are dedicated enough, you can eventually continue breeding by outcrossing alone (but don't expect instant or quick results). You should pick dogs that complement each other well and are similar in general appearance. This is a long hard road to eventually developing a line. Through outcrossing, many health problems can quickly be eliminated (or just as quickly added into your breeding), but usually you do sacrifice some show quality and producibility.

You have to remember that dogs that appear totally healthy may be carriers of genetic problems. To find this out, test mating is done to a dog that is affected with the genetic problem (resulting usually in puppies that are both affected and non-affected carriers) or by inbreeding to a related dog that also doesn't show the signs of being affected (usually littermates are used) this will usually result in some puppies free of the problem, some puppies as carriers, and some puppies affected. By breeding two dogs that carry the problem you may have to put all the puppies down).

There are variations on outcrossing. A "true" outcross could be a dog that has totally unrelated dogs bred together throughout the pedigree. This is very rare. On the other hand, "linecrossing" is a form of outcrossing where dogs from unrelated lines are bred to produce a new line. The sire and dam are usually very linebred from their prospective lines and the resulting puppies are varied in appreance, some looking like the sire's line and some looking like the dam's line and some looking like mixtures of both lines.

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Old Post 01-31-2006 12:15 AM
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