Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Talala, Oklahoma
Posts: 5208

A further observation: a lot of tight mouthed dogs get called layup dogs.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Los Angeles, MN
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Your on a roll today John,

I have had a few with this ability, Im not sure its as rare as some would believe.

Its not always a great thing though, I took a buch of minus and lost a cast because my dog was standing on her hind legs treeing in the middle of a pasture, several trees 50 ft away, one of them w/ a coon.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Talala, Oklahoma
Posts: 5208

quote:

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Originally posted by josh
Your on a roll today John,

I have had a few with this ability, Im not sure its as rare as some would believe.

Its not always a great thing though, I took a buch of minus and lost a cast because my dog was standing on her hind legs treeing in the middle of a pasture, several trees 50 ft away, one of them w/ a coon.

---

On a roll?

You mean I am agreeing with you?

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Los Angeles, MN
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quote:

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Originally posted by John Carroll
On a roll?

You mean I am agreeing with you?

---

I guess so...

You also thew a fastball at the walker guys on the Jr. thread.

If your saying cold nosed dogs tend to be more track oriented, and less inclined to tree without finishing a track...Then, heck yea, Im agreeing with you here also.

As long as Im posting again, Ill add....The best layup dog I'v seen wouldent rig to save his life...I dont think the two are remotely connected.

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Jacksonville,Nc
Posts: 1000

but sometime real faint,if you ever have notice as you bring your hound out of the woods they sniff trees as they would come out.that is how dogs tree lay up coons could be wrong.

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Registered: Jul 2005
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i have a dog here that one night after hunting he was up on tail gate and u could tell he smelled something he was all excited so i cut him and sure as **** there was a coon sitting up about 90 yards away and he went in and treed it he is very good at it dont do it alot but he will from time to time

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Talala, Oklahoma
Posts: 5208

quote:

---

Originally posted by josh
I guess so...

You also thew a fastball at the walker guys on the Jr. thread.

If your saying cold nosed dogs tend to be more track oriented, and less inclined to tree without finishing a track...Then, heck yea, Im agreeing with you here also.

As long as Im posting again, Ill add....The best layup dog I'v seen wouldent rig to save his life...I dont think the two are remotely connected.

---

I agree about the cold nosed part also. I think they do tend to be more track oriented.

What was the fastball I threw at the Walker men?

I'm going to have to watch this agreeing with Walker men.

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Registered: Nov 2004
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John, the dog I talked about ws an excellent dog on cold tracks. Opene real good too. His grt. granny. could cold trail but only opened sparingly on very cold tracks. She'd sometimes stay in an area where dogs had been working and given up, then she'd fall treed after being silent for a long time and have the coon in the exact area that "cold trailers" were having trouble.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Talala, Oklahoma
Posts: 5208

quote:

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Originally posted by J.Grubbs
John, the dog I talked about ws an excellent dog on cold tracks. Opene real good too. His grt. granny. could cold trail but only opened sparingly on very cold tracks. She'd sometimes stay in an area where dogs had been working and given up, then she'd fall treed after being silent for a long time and have the coon in the exact area that "cold trailers" were having trouble.

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Oh, like I said, I am sure there are exceptions. Those are the ones we are all looking for.

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 2162

You'll see a difference in lay-up dogs and silent dogs.

If the dog is always on the tree, chances are you've got a silent dog.

A lay-up dog knows the coon is up in the limbs, but is not always treeing up the tree, because it's not getting the scent from the tree trunk. Sometimes they will miss by a tree or two. Sometimes they may be dancing around barking up (especially in thick or viny woods).

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: OHIO
Posts: 962

quote:

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Originally posted by honalieh
You'll see a difference in lay-up dogs and silent dogs.

If the dog is always on the tree, chances are you've got a silent dog.

A lay-up dog knows the coon is up in the limbs, but is not always treeing up the tree, because it's not getting the scent from the tree trunk. Sometimes they will miss by a tree or two. Sometimes they may be dancing around barking up (especially in thick or viny woods).

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willscrk, you have described a VERY potential layup dog. I too have a young one, full brother, younger litter to the one I had described earlier. He is now making some of those "unsure" trees. This, I'm hoping will improve as he matures. Yes a layup dog WILL seem to "miss" some trees. He's treeing under the scent and uses whatever tree available to stand on. I love 'em.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 2410

What about big game start dogs that are supposed to be able to work tracks a day or two old ? How could there be such a thing as a lay-up to a dog like that?

If a dog trees by winding instead of tracking when there is a track .. is that a layup dog or just a hound with too much bird dog in it ?

I can say for sure that the few cold nosed , coon hunting hounds I've seen would fall treed from time to time ..... but just because they didn't open on the ground first don't mean nothing . These same dogs will sometimes work a real cold track without barking until they get it lined out .... maybe these "lay-ups" are just a short finish to those cold tracks ?

I'm thinking that as often as cold nosed dogs are also called "lay-up" dogs then they must have smelled the coon on the ground ...or they wouldn't be cold nosed .

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
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Justin, you have to have had one or hunted alot with one to understand and really appreciate what they are doing. If you have one with the ability they will truly amaze you with what they can do.

There is nothing like seeing a dog come out of the box standing on it's hind legs winding and you knowing that there will be a coon treed in just a few seconds. When it is cut it makes a bee line and gets treed with the meat 1/8 to 1/4 in before you can even get back to the tailgate. That dog smelled the coon from the truck and treed him while every other dog there didn't have a clue there was a coon in the area and may have even went the opposite direction of the dog that left winding. Even if they do go to it most of the time they will smell up the tree and have a confused look on their face cause they can't smell enough scent on the tree to even get excited over while the lay-up dog is walking around on it's hind legs winding and treeing under the coon.

The lay up dog will also make finding those summer coon easier too as many times they are sitting under the coon lookin right up wher it sits. This ability also makes them deadly accurate.

The one I had was open mouthed and ran a cold or hot track to catch. If it didn't climb quick it was a caught coon.

And yes, one like that is rare (at least it is in my neck of the woods anyway).

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I have and have had jagdterriers find game by standing on their legs , winding and then running to the game ..... and yes , it is cool ... but the same dog can't find the same critter if it is too far away to smell body scent like that .

I have a dog now and have seen dogs in the past ..... that would tree coon on the wood when another dog was treeing the same coon "lay-up" style ..... I'd say it's more a style than anything else .... and not a hound style.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
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Ok, think of the Jag's ability to tree one that hasn't been on the ground in a while PLUS the ability to work up and accurately tree any other type of track from tough and cold on frozen ground to blistering hot and that is what it would be like to own an lay-up dog.

The ones you seen tree on the wood just happened to have enough scent on the trunk for it to tree with it. When a layup dog trees a true lay up a good one more often than not will make otherwise good coondogs look like idiots by treein coons they can't even seem to smell let alone tree. (Now they will never make a me-to dog look bad cause that type of dog will tree on the tree just cause another dog is treein).

And yes, when they do both it is a hound trait, a very smart, very rare hound trait. They have to have been born with the ability to notice the scent cones and use the wind currents as well as have the brains to know how to use those currents under different conditions and still pick the right tree.

I'm still looking for another one. Got one that can get an easy one from time to time like that, but just doesn't have "it". Even though she trees a layup or two she is NOT a lay up dog. Hopefully one day I can own another lay-up dog cause they really do spoil a person.

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Last edited by Rip on 12-30-2005 at 03:42 AM

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Rip , big game hounds with similiar breeding to coon bred hounds work tracks a day or two old ..... so it's hard to believe that any tree that a coon climbs at night doesn't have scent on it .

Bloodhounds and beagles are the original and purest hounds .... they don't stand on their hind legs except to beg for a treat ....the lay-up thing is a cur/terrier influence showing up in hounds .

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Registered: Jun 2003
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Justin, the air currents and things are different at night than they are of the day. Humidity, barometric pressure etc all make a difference, then you have the dew falling and the frost freezing. Scent is greatly affected by moisture, which is abundant in the ground, not so on a tree trunk. Scent disappates much, much faster on hard surfaces than on the ground. Depending on the bark you also have some trees with overpowering scents etc.

I hope you can own one yourself (heck I hope all coonhunters can own at least one of them). They are a true joy to hunt and owning one will give you a true appreciation for their special ability, but it will also spoil you and leave you pinin for another one if you ever lose it. It is also something you have to see to really believe. Nothin better than watching 2-3 other dogs lookin at your dog like it's crazy while it has a coon up in the tree.

I have also had beagles that use wind currents, they make good jump dogs.

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Last edited by Rip on 12-30-2005 at 03:51 AM

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Oklahoma
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How old does a track have to be to dissapear ?

I'd guess that a good bloodhound that would trail coon could be turned loose near a "lay-up" and get a few barks on the ground ... no coon would stay on a limb until their track outlasted a bloodhound .

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
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I would say you are right about that, don't know as I have never fooled with any bloodhounds LOL. I have heard they got some good noses though.

It wouldn't take but a half hour or so in certian conditions for the scent on a tree to disapate to the point that most dogs wouldn't get excited enough about it to tree on it. It could be several hours under different conditions. It all depends on the atmosphere and type of tree trunk.

The scent would usually stay much, much longer on the ground due to the moisture of the soil, it's absorbability etc. Lots of times those other dogs look stupid cause they are going off to bark here and yonder on scent they can still smell on the ground but can't get any off the tree the coon is up cause it's already gone.

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Last edited by Rip on 12-30-2005 at 03:59 AM

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Lay-up dogs might make stupid dogs look stupid ..but as rare and cool as lay-up style dogs are .... sho-nuff cold nosed tree dogs are just as cool and just as rare and are just as hard to make look stupid as a good lay-up dog.

One way that is about as accurate as just plain guessing at lay-ups is seeing if you can shine coon eyes on the way to a non lay-up dog ..... if you very rarely or never see any then the non lay-up dog must be ...has to be ... trailing and treeing coon that would be considered lay-ups .

If lay-up coon exist then you should be able to shine coon that a normal but top notch hound didn't tree because he had no track to find the coon with .... and I used to think like Rip and Grubbs ... but I've hunted with a dog that trails his coon and sometimes falls treed and you will not find eyes that he has left ..even in bottoms that I have seen eyes without dogs under them many times in the past .

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Registered: Jul 2003
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I think a true lay-up dog is more about exceptional locating ability than being hot or cold nosed. Maybe these dogs just have or use a few more tools for locating. I had one 15 years ago and after 15 years and dozens of hounds I've got my second. They really are uncommon and really are amazing to watch.

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Registered: Nov 2003
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You can tell the difference. My gyp will tree them occasionaly when conditions are right. The air's gotta be moving just so. Sometime's she will be on the tree, but also sometime's she will be on the ground, or a vine or something just to stand on. If she just pops a coon up, no track barks, the coon is usually way up top, or out on a limb, and looking. Same as if she were to have really trailed it in there. But on a lay-up, that sucker is balled up in a crotch for the duration. She is not a cold-nosed dog, so I don't think that has anything to do with treeing lay-ups. But if you watch her she will have her head up alot when the air is moving, and sometimes even stand up on her hind legs. Now sometimes she will throw her head up, and run in there and strike a track by winding it instead of just treeing. Now she's not really a lay-up dog, but rather a dog that can occasionaly tree lay-ups.

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Does your dog open on some tracks, and just start treeing on others ? There are two important ingredients that makes a dog a " Lay up" dog. 1. Brains 2. Nose Even with brains, and nose, conditions come into play. If your dog is consistently falling treed, you might want to hunt her with something that you know opens on the ground. It would be easy to mistake a dog treeing lay ups, and one that is silent. If you keep hunting her, you will be able to tell. As long as she pleases you, that's really all that matters. If she is showing you coon, she is above average, no matter how she does it. Good luck!

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She has bawl mouth on track. But when she gets in her layup moods she'll walk around on her hind legs than Bam she's on the wood chopping away. When this happens she is probably no more than 30 to 50 feet away just treeing away

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