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It’s real simple by the rule, if it could be there its circled. Simple as that and if it couldn’t hide in that tree it's minused.

I was at a hunt this weekend and after the cast was in we were standing around talking. I asked a guy how he did and he said they made 6 big trees and couldn’t ever find a coon. But he thought they were probably there. I called BS. We made 5 trees on my cast and we found a coon in every one of them. Most of the time if it is there you will find it.

I understand you can miss one easily but 6 trees and no coon? I will agree that there are some guys that are to quick to score one slick but they are by far in the minority.

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Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Paragon IN
Posts: 1100

I would argue that there is some contradiction between the interpretation of the rule saying you must see a hole big enough for a coon to go in to circle and the rule that says only to minus when you can "plainly see no coon is there". If there is a big crotch up there and I can't tell if it is hollow then it is pretty hard for me to vote that I can plainly see there is no coon there. JMO

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Registered: Mar 2009
Location: s.c.
Posts: 6961

quote:

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Originally posted by Surveyor
I would argue that there is some contradiction between the interpretation of the rule saying you must see a hole big enough for a coon to go in to circle and the rule that says only to minus when you can "plainly see no coon is there". If there is a big crotch up there and I can't tell if it is hollow then it is pretty hard for me to vote that I can plainly see there is no coon there. JMO

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Last edited by l.lyle on 04-10-2012 at 06:11 AM

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Registered: Nov 2005
Location: minnesota
Posts: 3660

The standard to minus "can plainly see no coon is there" seems set to give the hound the benefit of the doubt. Which, IMO, is the way it should be. Anyone who has hunted for very long has had a situation where the tree sure looked slick right up til someone saw a coon. Sometimes hidden right in plain sight. On a cast just a couple years ago the whole cast was treed on a fence line, leaves still on the trees, but this was not a huge tree, easy to see from one side, not too bad from the other. We used 10 and could not find a coon. As we stood discussing whether this tree could be circled [too small to be hollow] one of the cast members threw his light back up the tree and the coon looked right at us. In plain sight. A tree that most of us would have considered giving minus points on. Of course we had to circle at this point.

I don't really see a problem giving circle points whenever there is a chance that there could be a hole in a crotch, or any other legit hiding opportunity. If a dog is bad about their accuracy they can go around all night and make slick trees. I could circle them all night. If my dog can't beat yours when yours is making numerous trees that can not be plussed, and mine is making trees that can be plussed, then my dog doesn't deserve to win much either.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Los Angeles, MN
Posts: 4236

As far a nite hunts go the most important thing is that trees are scored consistantly.....If every cast scores them under the same criteria the playing field is as level as its gonna get.


It seems like this is always a big issue for some that dont enter hunts, not so much for those that do.....

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4321

quote:

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Originally posted by josh
As far a nite hunts go the most important thing is that trees are scored consistantly.....If every cast scores them under the same criteria the playing field is as level as its gonna get.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: michigan
Posts: 2573

Lots of those squirrel holes a small coon could get in may be fine , if he can get his head in the rest will follow but I'm a believer that the tree has to be thick enough to whole the coon. A hole by itself in a skinny tree don't make a den.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

Remember though what they were talking about in the advisor was calling something a DEN without finding a hole.

That's a whole different ballgame than circling because a coon "could" be there.

Basically to minus a tree then you have to be sure a coon could not reasonably be hidden up there.

At times that can be a big crotch. You are not saying it's a den, you are saying you can't shine that crotch and you can't see if there is a coon there.

That's not the same thing as saying there might be a hole.

If a coon COULD be hidden in that tree and you vote minus then you voilated the rules.

Doesn't matter if you think they slicked or not. All that matters is if there could be a coon there you don't see then the rules say you gotta circle the tree. You have to be able to plainly see that no coon is in the tree and there is no place for him to hide to legally minus a tree.

Just the same as if you plus a tree cause you hear a coon growling. You know the coon is in there but the rules don't allow you to plus it because you didn't see it.

Same here. It's a simple rule. If there is a place a coon could hide in that tree and not be seen, whether that's vines, a nest, or a great big crotch you can't shine then by rule you MUST vote circle because the rules plainly say if a COON could be there (not a hole but a COON) then you have to vote circle.

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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

I follow the practice that Marv Schmucker uses. It is very simple. You want me to vote circle, PUT YOUR LIGHT UP THERE AND SHOW ME WHERE A COON COULD BE HID. If they are not being honest, they will never have the gall to put that light up, they will just shuffle their feet, grumble and say something along the lines of " Well, just minus it then". And there's your vote. On the other hand, if they honestly believe they got a legit circle, they can throw that light up there and show me and I will back them on it with my vote. This ain't brain science and human nature is hard to overcome.

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Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Otterbein, Indiana
Posts: 272

You can't make enough rules for crooks. You don't need many for honest people.

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Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Burlington, CT
Posts: 1758

quote:

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Originally posted by jackbob42
I think that if they went to either plus or minus , it would save alot of arguements.
Either you have the chance to kill a coon or you don't.

Sure , your dog may take some minus sometimes when it don't deserve it , but it shouldn't happen enough for a person to worry about.
Not around here anyways.

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Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Burlington, CT
Posts: 1758

Rip makes a good point... calling something a den or place of refuge or whatever else, requires knowledge of a means to enter that place of refuge or den. But... to say that you "can plainly see no coon is there" is a different story.

I brought it up here before, but we've all been dumb enough to go to those hunts in a pouring down rain storm, and when you look up and get pelted in the eyes with rain drops, it's hard to plainly see anything. And if you can't plainly see a coon, or a hole or anything else, then you can't minus the tree.

And if that's an opportunity to not plainly see that a coon isn't there, there are other such opportunities. And yes, if you circle 6 such trees you should start scratching your head on whether they're legitimate, but where do you draw the line... after the first one, or the second, or the third??? And with that in mind, I agree with Truly, if you can't beat a slick treeing dog, minus or not, then you don't have a dog that can put up plus either!

I also agree with the "Marv Schmucker" approach, and Joe Newlin has used that on me, several times!!!

David Schmidt

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Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Burlington, CT
Posts: 1758

And since we're on page two, let me state again... I'm not for circling slick trees, and I usually know what those are, but I'm also not for pretending we're experts with x-ray vision and laying the pencil to a dog to attempt to prove how "honest" we are.

You can just as easily "cheat" by knowingly circling slick trees, as you can by voting to minus someone else's den.

I've treed on big oaks where you can see the hole and it is bigger than your fist, and someone come along and say that they bet it doesn't go all the way in!

David Schmidt

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

I personally like the "show me where the coon could be hiding" thing too.

I am not for circling slicks, but at the same time if there is a place where a coon could be, even if I am convinced that they are slick and my dog ain't there I still vote circle because the rule doesn't allow me to vote anything else if a coon could be hidden there. Rule does't allow me to vote on what I think happened. I have to be sure it's slick to vote slick or sure it's plus to vote plus. Anything else is circle whether I like it or not.

But if I don't think there is a hiding place then you can bet I will say "show me where a coon could be" LOL.

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Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Burlington, CT
Posts: 1758

Rip - I think you hit the nail on the head... All too often we want to vote on what we "think" happened, as opposed to following the rules as written.

David Schmidt

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Registered: Sep 2007
Location: ackerman,ms
Posts: 2229

my deal is with the folks that never shine the tree then they want to vote slick.... how would they even know.... they never put a light in it but i have sure seen it happen

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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: mid-michigan
Posts: 4437

quote:

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Originally posted by deschmidt27
I guess that would prevent anyone from going to those February hunts!

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Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Burlington, CT
Posts: 1758

Jackbob - I hunt all year long, snow or no snow, but I also make a lot of dens during the rut. And if I knew I was going to minus out for treeing a couple dens, I don't think I'd waste my $20 in February!

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