Registered: Feb 2004
Location: NE south dakota
Posts: 260

If there was no tree there and the dog was either sitting there under the coon or standing there under the coon on tree number one, plus it up.But in that scenario he will have to take minus. Tree two plus it up. imo Gene Parrow

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Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Taylorsville, NC
Posts: 1320

Minus both. In the second one change it over to a deep creek and the dog is on one side and the coon on the other in a small bush about eye level. Would you plus it then? A similar question was asked a long time ago and 99% said minus. Just wondering what the difference is. Dog must show tree. Standing on a cliff twenty feet up with a coon in a tree at eye level. More then likely there will be more then one tree off of the cliff and you just assume the dog would be barking at the one with a coon in it even though it may be a tree or two away from the cliff. Not saying they don't wind tree and tree lay ups ( I have had dogs do both ) but I think by rules standard they would both be minused. That is just like saying the dog sitting in the middle of the woods treeing but not showing a tree could be wind treeing and a coon in one of the trees around him but would you really plus it if you went by the rules?

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Registered: Mar 2011
Location: Georgetown IN
Posts: 44

has happened to me in a hunt. The difference was that there was a dog treed in the large tree, and two on a bush underneath the coon. We plussed the hound on tree and minused those on the bush both ways. Mine was on the bush and I was the judge.With Scenario 2 i would probably plus as long as there wasn't any trees inbetween dog and tree coon is in.

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Registered: Dec 2006
Location: Springfield, Ga.
Posts: 4254

I'll leave my answers secret for a while here, but i have to ask, if the dog in #2 is 25 feet away and looking at the coon you plus, but the dog that is directly under the coon, 15 feet away, on a small tree directly under the coon that doesn't touch, you minus. WHY? Yes i do know what the rules say, but in both cases, the coondog knew where the coon was and did it's job by showing you the coon. Could it be the touching rule needs to go away? Was it put in the rules for in-accurate coondogs? Just some thinking points here.

OK..long enough on my answer.. minus on 1, but only because of rules, and a bad break for the dog/handler imo. #2 would be plus because the hound is showing end of trail, and you can clearly see a coon. wonder if i can get somebody to plus mine with the dog on the river bank on one side, and the soon on the other?

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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: mid-michigan
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I'm not a comp hunter , so.................

" The coon is 15 feet straight above the dog. The dog is 40 feet from the base of tree the coon went up. "

If the dog is 15 feet below the coon , and the tree it is on is not tall enough to touch the tree the coon is in , it's not much of a tree. You should be able to tell whether the dog is treeing on the coon , or the small tree.
If you can't , you shouldn't be coon hunting.
I prefer to judge a dog on where his attention is. Rather than where his feet are.

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Registered: Feb 2009
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minus both.

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Registered: Dec 2009
Location: North Central Indiana
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quote:

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Originally posted by Rick Dennison
minus both.

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Registered: Sep 2007
Location: South Dakota
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Anytime I am voting on a situation like either of these in a cast I ask myself thos question. If game warden was standing right here next to me would I shoot that coon? In the first one I would say probably not I bet he'd write me a ticket for spotlighting. On the second one without a doubt he's gonna fall. JMO and a little food for thought.

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Registered: Sep 2010
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The first one is an obvious minus. The dog is on a tree that has no coon and no way for the coon to cross out. Anything but minus on that one is flat out cheating.

On the second one, the dog is treed and he has the coon. Plus him up.

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Registered: May 2005
Location: Bellevue, IA
Posts: 1874

quote:

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Originally posted by Rick Dennison
minus both.

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Registered: Sep 2007
Location: ackerman,ms
Posts: 2229

quote:

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Originally posted by T Felderman
In situation #2. Unless that dog can put his feet on the tree from the bluff or a limb touches the bluff hes minused.

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Registered: May 2005
Location: Bellevue, IA
Posts: 1874

quote:

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Originally posted by patches9452
so you minus a dog that trees off the tree if he trees off of it far enough he cant touch it

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Last edited by T Felderman on 02-27-2012 at 06:31 PM

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quote:

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Originally posted by T Felderman
Completely different situation.

like someone else posted. You gonna plus a dog barking on a river bank when there's a coon sitting up on the opposite side? By your post maybe you would, I dont know.

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Registered: May 2005
Location: Bellevue, IA
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quote:

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Originally posted by patches9452
i would plus one standing on the bank if the tree came out the bottom of the bank

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Exactly, you said where the tree came out the bottom where the coon could have/probably did go up. In our Scenario that coon didnt fly off the cliff to get up the tree.

A dog is treeing on a barn and 15 feet away in a tree sits a coon, you gonna plus that up to? I could go on and on with "what ifs"

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Registered: May 2008
Location: Gillett, Pa
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i want that dog he is one smart cookie

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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
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quote:

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Originally posted by T Felderman
In situation #2. Unless that dog can put his feet on the tree from the bluff or a limb touches the bluff hes minused.

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He's whatever the cast votes him to be. My vote would be plus. Your vote is minus. The tree is then circled.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

Ok absolutely NOWHERE in the rules does it say the dog has to be touching the tree nor does it have to be close to the coon. Not one single place does it even mention that.

The dog has to be "showing treed" or "showing you the coon". You can't really judge either from a picture.

Jackbob hit the nail on the head. You judge the dog, period.

In the first picture I scratched the dog we were hunting on a possum. Two of the dogs were on it and they were taking turns propping up on the sapling. It was very clear and obvious that they were treeing the possum and just propping up on the sapling occasionally. ALL of their attention was on the possum. I scratched us both and the other guy said "but the tree they are touching is slick". I asked him what he honestly thought the dogs were treeing because I have hunted long enough to know the difference in a dog treeing a tree and propping up on something. If they are propping up on the sapling and not treeing on it then it's no different than them propping up on a stump or vine at the base of a tree etc. Again though you have to be there and judge the dog for what it is doing.

Now to the second one. That was a plus tree all the way with no question. That was my female on the bluff (dead now but a great layup dog). It didn't even rasie any eyebrows other than how good a job she did. No other dog there had a clue there was a coon there. She left the cast on her back legs running around winding. SHe went about 200 yards located and started treein starin sraight at the coon. It was just a smidge above her and almost like the picture is drawn. She never budged and kept treein every breath till handled. No other dog made a bark. Everybody there could clearly see she was showin treed on the tree the coon was in. Could she have been miused? If she wasn't clearly showing that tree yes, no different than situation 1 can be minused if they are not clearly showing the coon instead of the sapling, again depends on what the dog is showing.

But there is absolutely positively nothing in the rules that says a dog has to touch a tree to show the tree. If you can't figgure out what tree a dog is showing it either needs to be minused cause it isn't doin it's job or you need to let someone else judge cause you can't do yours LOL. If they had to touch the "tree" then no drains, tiles, holes, barns, log jams or anything else would ever be plussed. That's not the case though. The case is the dog has to show you what it is treeing.

Bottom line is it's like a dog meeting you off the tree. You gotta see it and judge the dog for what it is doing.

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Registered: May 2005
Location: Bellevue, IA
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O this RIP is a tricky person HA

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

LOL, no not trying to be tricky. The first picture was of a coon that Longshots youngan drew that started this whole thing.

I just had the exact same thing happen cept it was a possum in an RQE and I scratched the dog we were hunting and the other one cause we could plainly see the sapling was just a prop, they wanted to tree lookin straight up on their back legs but would use the sapling as balance sometimes. I pulled the dog we scratched back and the other boy watched his dog and he put his head down and took his scratch too cause it was obvious to anyone that hunted what the dog was treein regardless of what it was propped up on.

The second pic was one that Longshot had his youngan to draw after my description of it though LOL. It's close but the coon was just a little above the dog and I think I said eye level with the dog but it was really about person eye level and the tree was a little closer to the bluff. Probably 15 feet or so.

But by the dogs actions in both of them you could either plus or minus. If the dog on the bluff was milling going back and fourth along the bluff and not showin a tree I would have minused her. She wasn't. She was solid and showin the tree.

By the same token if the dogs in the first picture are treein up the sapling, no question it's minus. But if they are using it as a prop like ours did on the possum then you score what the dogs are showing you.

It's very hard to make a judgement call on a computer, or on a picture.

How far is too far off to meet you on the tree? Cant tell till you see it. You can't judge the dogs actions. Was it just meeting the handler or was it milling. There is clearly a difference and IMO that's how you judge it. If it's clearly meeting the handler then no harm, if it's clearly milling then it's minused. But you gotta be there and see it to judge it IMO just like I think you have to see the dogs actions in both pics above in order to make an informed vote.

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Last edited by Rip on 02-27-2012 at 07:39 PM

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quote:

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Originally posted by Rick Dennison
minus both.

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Registered: May 2010
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 350

Looking at the second drawing scenerio lets call the dog in the drawing dog C and say it's within 5 feet of the coon in the tree face barking/baying it.
Scenerio #3
RQE,3 dog cast, non-hunting judge. All 3 dogs are struck in. Dog C is declared treed and the 5 is started. With less than 1 min. gone dog B is declared split treed to the left of dog C, followed immediately by dog A (treed with B). Dogs A and B are definately left of dog C and sound as though they are slightly deeper than dog C. Since all dogs are treed the cast goes to handle dogs and score trees. Cast arrives at the tree just after 5 mins. has expired (just to give you an idea of how close we were to the dogs when all this happened). Dogs A and B are standing up on a tree that has grown at the edge of a 30-40 foot verticle cliff. Dog C is out at the end of a narrow rock point which is about 50 feet from the base of A ans B's tree and probably 10 feet higher than the base of A and B's tree. Dog C is facing a Coon in the tree, tree/baying. We were able to walk almost in a perfectly straight line to the tree so all cast members knew that none of the dogs had moved.

Dog A=?
Dog B=?
Dog C=?

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Registered: May 2009
Location: Tonkawa Oklahoma
Posts: 5587

quote:

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Originally posted by The Seeker
I have a question. For those that minused the dog in #1 If there wasn't a tree under the coon and the dog was sitting directly under the coon would you plus it? In both scenarios the dogs is winding the coon. Dog #1 is 10 feet closer to the coon then #2.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

quote:

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Originally posted by Okie Dawg
The rules don't allow for winding. You would have to minuse both by the rules.
I climbed a tree and saw the coon in the hole this past weak end and we had to circle the tree. All three dogs were in the tree. Some times tough breaks just get you.

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Registered: May 2009
Location: Tonkawa Oklahoma
Posts: 5587

quote:

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Originally posted by Rip
Okie, you are absolutely wrong on this. Show me a rule that disallows winding. It doesn't exist.

The rules do not state that they can't wind. They have to show tree.

They don't have to touch the tree to show the tree as you or any other person that has hunted alot well know (I know you know this from your other posts about lay ups etc). They can have their feet on the tree, but they don't have to. Otherwise you couldn't plus a barn, tile, hole, brushpile. None of them are "trees".

You score the dog and what the dog is showing you. Sometimes it's a bad break, but sometimes the dog will get plussed. Just depends on what it shows.

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Registered: May 2008
Location: Gillett, Pa
Posts: 1876

rules state no climbing trees

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