Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1084

If I wanted to play by PKC rules then I would hunt in their hunts. I don't because I like the ukc rules and their setup. But apparently The rule book does not mean squat. If rules such as these are to be inforced They should be in BLACK AND WHITE!!! That way us stupid rednecks can understand the rules to.

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Registered: Not Yet
Location:
Posts: N/A

Well Big Timber, I just hope when you are judgeing a cast you will have the courtesy to let the castmembers know upfront that you will be playing by your rules, not UKC's.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 1652

Well, it isn't in the rule book to minus dogs for running off game, only treeing, and has been affirmed by UKC. Are we to assume you are publicly declaring you are not going to go by the rules?

It is in the rulebook that anything covered in the Advisor is applicable...

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1084

WEll it appears Big timber is making his own rules but if it does not state anywhere in the rule book that the judge can put the 5 on your dog and then score the tree, but many of you are saying that it can be done, then isn't it safe to say that I could minus a dog for running deer even though its not in the rule book?

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 1652

I'm seeing a distressing pattern in the people that are having trouble with UKC's official interpetation, and the Advisor. Does anyone else notice this? How about you JohnD? ;-)

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1084

I understand that darrel but do you not agree that it is stupid that I would have to read two different things (Rule book & Advisor) just to cover one rule. If somethinmg is a rule and covered in the advisor it should be posted plain as day in the rulebook.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 1652

No argument here. I've already stated my opinion on that subject several times in the past.

I do think that putting this Advisor book together was a step in the right direction. However, it should be made a little more readily available to everyone. Those that have it are gonna be at an advantage over those who don't. Especially in the vague situations that don't occur often enough for people to keep straight. At least they (UKC) does give us their official stance one any rule interpetation, and it's there for the asking. Now, how any of this would hold up in a MOH question and formal complaint remains to be seen...

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Los Angeles, MN
Posts: 4236

I dont see the problem here....For me, the advisor simply clears up some of the "grey" areas in the rules......

You get 4 men and 4 strange dogs in the woods together and there are 1,000,000,000....+ scenarios that can play out on any given nite........I think the advisor is a great idea and will prove to be helpfull in getting EVERYONE to see the rules from the same perspective.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Texas
Posts: 803

A.L. my first reaction was the same as yours but like John D. on a different post(j/k John D.) after rereading and rethinking a little I think I now have it.It is a rule that a handler must tell the judge when his dog strikes and must tell the judge when his dog trees, rule 9.The ruling in the advisory is telling us what and how to rule on a handler that is not calling his dog treed as the rules state he is supposed to do.

I may be slow but the rules say the rest of cast has to maintain the pace of the slowest cast member LOL.
Slow I may be but by crackie I will eventually get there.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 1652

I too was vehemently opposed to the "Advisor" columns being "admissable in court" if you will. For one, lots of MOH's don't read them, and if they all(MOH) aren't up to date, trying to quote one in a question situation is useless. However, UKC is trying to improve and help, and should be commended for such. It would be easy to just let everyone interpet rules however they see fit, and never take an official stance, but they don't. Whether we agree with it or not is not for us to say. Someone HAS to have the final say, period. We may not agree with a rule, but if we want to hunt UKC, we have to abide by that. Same with an official interpetation.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4321

I guess I don't see the problem, either. The rules on the back of the scorecard did not cover or explain every situation in detail. They never have, and never will. Thats why we have the column in CB and the Advisor, to help clear this up and get all judging closer to being on the same level playing field. How can that be a bad thing?

I know from personal experience there is nothing more frustrating than to get in front of a MOH, club officers, and a clubhouse of onlookers and be the only one to have any clue what the correct interpretation of a rule is. Without these types of things written down, there was no way to prove anything. Now, there is. Thank you, UKC.

P.S. Darrell, when we have this in our hands, it will be our responsibility to get these MOH's up to date, if they haven't done it on their own.

Last edited by John D on 09-24-2003 at 05:12 PM

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Texas
Posts: 803

I think one thing is, like me,a few have been hunting these hunts a long long time and it has always been the general thinking that a person did not have to tree his dog if he chose not to,now suddenly for whatever reason,rule change,better inforcement of rules,etc.,it is discovered that yes you do have to tree your dog.The advisory states what to do in case that doesn't happen and like everything else in there,as Todd explained to this short sighted person,they are just stating what or how UKC will deal with the question if they are called upon to do so.The things in the advisory are not rules but solutions and applications to apply to the rules we do have.
I do see some controversy arriseing for the MOH at some of the hunts for awhile because some hunters & MOH will be up to date on the way the rules will be handled and then some hunters & MOH won't be up to date.I can see I am going to have to save up the money and get a copy of the Advisory because I will be up to date if I continue to serve as MOH.
Hey Todd,how about floating me a loan????

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Friends are Cherished and Hunting is a Pleasure
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 1652

Pappy, I was going to suggest before your post that UKC give one to every MOH, seems logical. However, I realized how many MOH's there were, and they would be in the hole before they knew it. Maybe a MOH discount would be in order...

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4321

but, Darrell, isn't whats in the Advisor, just information that has been published already in past issues of CB? Information that a MOH is obligated to keep up on? Its nothing new in the way of interpretations, its just been put in a better format, from what I understand.

I've personally cut many of those columns out to carry in my pickup. For the first time, I ran across a MOH Sat. night that has done the same thing.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 1652

Yes, it is. Should be old news to MOH's, but it isn't always...

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Kalamazoo, Mich.
Posts: 6113

It's FREE guys. Don't get much cheaper than that. You just have to renew a sub to CB before February. Any Master of Hounds that's worth his salt is going to subscribe to CB. I don't see how a licensed official could justify not subscribing to CB because of all the official announcements that it contains that pertain to the sport. Anybody remember back when it used to be mandatory that you had to subscribe if you were a licensed official? Wasn't that long ago. Still, I gotta believe most MOH and BSJ's are CB subscribers. If you are going to subscribe anyway, you might as well renew before Feb. and get the book for free.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 1652

I just assumed they had to buy theirs like I did. I was led to believe there was a limited number, and I had better get one now if I wanted it. My Bloodlines subscription doesn't run out for a while...

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Oregon
Posts: 243

Big Timber said, "If this is true then will a dog receive circle points for treeing A possum." Well, yes, for a reg. cast if there could reasonably be a coon in the tree, also. You are supposed to give the dog the benefit of the doubt.

I appreciated Todd Kellam's response:
The judge is not "treeing your dog". He is informing you that if you do not keep up with your responsibility of telling the judge when your dog trees (9), that in a given amount of time, he is going to go check your dog to see if it is indeed treed and if he is, score him accordingly. I mean, this is still about scoring dogs and awarding the best dog that night right? If the dog leaves, shuts up, whatever, he won't be penalized and the judge will tell the handler that the handler must really know his dog well and what a fine decision he made not to tree him.

This finally makes it clear to me. Well put, can't really argue with that logical explaination...well, I suppose you can

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Seymour, Missouri
Posts: 250

If there is a possum in that tree, you had better show the coon too or YOU WILL BE MINUSED!!!!!!

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Registered: Not Yet
Location:
Posts: N/A

Wrong Libby. If your registered dog is under a possum you will either find a coon in that tree or get minused. You can't circle a possum treed just because a coon could be there. Where in the rulebook is there anything about "giving the dog the benefit of the doubt?"

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Texas
Posts: 803

Todd I do subscribe to the magazine but it is not due to renew for a couple of years yet.Oh well guess I can renew anyway,my grandkids can use it for cutouts if I don't make it that long.LOL.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Texas
Posts: 803

Darrell and John D. you guys are the most fortunate folks I have seen to have a memory that is keen enough to remember every topic that has been ruled on,wish I could do that and I just hate to think of TEARING out a page of my bloodlines.I have tried scanning them but for some reason it just won't come out plain enough to read when I print it.Hey Todd I assume the advisory will be updated every year won't it???Just gonna have to dip in mama's grocery money and order one,if I don't see any of you on here in days to come you will know I GOT CAUGHT.

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Friends are Cherished and Hunting is a Pleasure
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Oregon
Posts: 243

Ya'll are right, I have no idea what the heck I was thinking! It'd be minus. Well, good to have my goof up for 2003 out of the way before the holidays.

Todd's explaination is still right on target!

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 1652

quote:

---

Originally posted by PAPPY
Darrell and John D. you guys are the most fortunate folks I have seen to have a memory that is keen enough to remember every topic that has been ruled on,wish I could do that and I just hate to think of TEARING out a page of my bloodlines.I have tried scanning them but for some reason it just won't come out plain enough to read when I print it.Hey Todd I assume the advisory will be updated every year won't it???Just gonna have to dip in mama's grocery money and order one,if I don't see any of you on here in days to come you will know I GOT CAUGHT.

---

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Seymour, Missouri
Posts: 250

Libby,

If I were to only get one goof up per year, I'm so far ahead that I'll have to be on perfect behavior till about year 3050

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