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Smoke
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Batavia,Iowa
Posts: 2623

quote:
Originally posted by Tim MACHA
I have completely lost track of how many casts I have lost

Tim you loose casts because you hunt Redbones!!!

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12-12-2011 12:04 AM

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Timsdogs
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2008
Location: Rockypoint N.C.
Posts: 94

Babbler

I am a victim of hunting against that trash to! I even sold a dog that would probably would have made a great comp. dog. I know my dog won't open with that babbling trash unless there is actually a coon scent present and if you don't open your mouth about it to the judges it will always be over looked! Hunting your dogs on bait buckets all the time doesn't help any either. I also think they should reduce the 8 to 3 and get back to fine hounds and weed out the trash. This is something to consider when buying a dog or breeding. How fast did he make Night Champ or G. night champ? Babblers can do it quick. If your in it for the competition get a new dog! If your in it for the love of hunting with coon hounds get away from comp. hunting!! Good luck

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12-12-2011 02:06 AM

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Okie Dawg
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2009
Location: Tonkawa Oklahoma
Posts: 5587

quote:
Originally posted by Tim MACHA
First strike, second tree=175
Third strike, first tree=175

Get fourth strike and first tree, you settle for 150. You can take first tree all night and if the other dog covers at the drop of a hat, you have to hope the other dog screws up, because it is very hard to beat a dog taking 175 on every tree.

If mine would not open till third strike I wouldn't blame a babbler for my loss. I would get a dog that opens on track when he finds it and one that would move till it did.
Don't get me wrong, I really hate a babbler too but a lot of the time a good open mouthed dog gets called a babbler buy the loosers. If it leases babbleing and doesn't shut up it would be a babbler. A lot of dogs will open 3-4 times when they leave but shut up till they find a track. There are a lot of people that wont strike there dog in the minute becouse the judges will tell them they need to open again in that area. Well if they open again in that area they probubly are babbleing.
If they struck they should be moveing the track and not opening in the same place.
Mine when I hunt them at home I just open the box and they go. In a comp. hunt you put them on a lead and they get over excited before everyone gets around to cutting them. So some times they will bawl on the lead or when you cut them but in the worse case only 3-4 times before they shut up. If they have been getting hunted like they should they don't do that but they don't allways get enough hunting. A true babbler shouldn't get but second or third in cast and can get scratched if the cast knows what they are doing.
I see more trying to scratch a good fast dog for babbleing then people scratching a reel babbler.
Most of the time mine will make a true strike before the minute is up in good hunting ground. When you get first tree or split tree a lot it is hard for them to call them babblers though. Even harder for a babbler to beet you.

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12-12-2011 02:38 AM

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Rip
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

quote:
Originally posted by Okie Dawg
If mine would not open till third strike I wouldn't blame a babbler for my loss. I would get a dog that opens on track when he finds it and one that would move till it did.
Don't get me wrong, I really hate a babbler too but a lot of the time a good open mouthed dog gets called a babbler buy the loosers. If it leases babbleing and doesn't shut up it would be a babbler. A lot of dogs will open 3-4 times when they leave but shut up till they find a track. There are a lot of people that wont strike there dog in the minute becouse the judges will tell them they need to open again in that area. Well if they open again in that area they probubly are babbleing.
If they struck they should be moveing the track and not opening in the same place.
Mine when I hunt them at home I just open the box and they go. In a comp. hunt you put them on a lead and they get over excited before everyone gets around to cutting them. So some times they will bawl on the lead or when you cut them but in the worse case only 3-4 times before they shut up. If they have been getting hunted like they should they don't do that but they don't allways get enough hunting. A true babbler shouldn't get but second or third in cast and can get scratched if the cast knows what they are doing.
I see more trying to scratch a good fast dog for babbleing then people scratching a reel babbler.
Most of the time mine will make a true strike before the minute is up in good hunting ground. When you get first tree or split tree a lot it is hard for them to call them babblers though. Even harder for a babbler to beet you.

Nope, you are missing something big here. The reason an honest strike dog gets 3rd strike in the cast is because there are so many babblers that's where the honest strike dog will fall into.

We need to completely do away with the minute, all it does is give the babblers time to get far enough away from the cast to place doubt in some folks mind and it's harder to minus their lyin butts for it.

Dog opens three times he gets struck and let the chips fall where they may. That will stop alot of these babblers from bein hunted. If the owners know they don't have a minute to get through the country and they have to put them on the paper and take their minus for babblin then they would break them. As it is now they use them to their advantage to get an automatic 100 every time they are cut loose.

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12-12-2011 03:18 AM

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Okie Dawg
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2009
Location: Tonkawa Oklahoma
Posts: 5587

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
Nope, you are missing something big here. The reason an honest strike dog gets 3rd strike in the cast is because there are so many babblers that's where the honest strike dog will fall into.

We need to completely do away with the minute, all it does is give the babblers time to get far enough away from the cast to place doubt in some folks mind and it's harder to minus their lyin butts for it.

Dog opens three times he gets struck and let the chips fall where they may. That will stop alot of these babblers from bein hunted. If the owners know they don't have a minute to get through the country and they have to put them on the paper and take their minus for babblin then they would break them. As it is now they use them to their advantage to get an automatic 100 every time they are cut loose.

If you have more than one babbler in a cast they will be following each other.
If you take the babbleing rule away you will have more babblers. They will have no reason to stop it becouse the reason most babble is becouse they are high drive dogs and a week handler that lets them get away with it.
You take the babbleing rule away they would be no reason for them to get controll of it. There a lot of babblers that can and do put up a lot of coon and do it fast. Just becouse they babble doesn't mean they arent hunting.
You make it so they can strike off the chain and you will see the 8 minute rule will catch far fewer than you think and they will get the first strike tide up weather the 8 gets them or not. So you still won't get the 100 strike points. I think the rules on babbleing is as good as you can do them. People just needs to call a babbler a babbler out in the dark were it counts.

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12-12-2011 07:14 PM

Rip
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

No, the minute ALLOWS them to get away with it.

Without a minute rule I can walk them across a pasture then turn around and send them back the way I came in and minus their butts for babbling.

We had far less babblers in the hunts before they put that stupid rule in place to allow them to babble for a minute without penalty.

By the time a minute is up they can usually get deep enough in to cause question as to whether they are actually struck or not.

Without it they are barking right in the light, right in front of us, barkin at the other dogs or whatever.

That's what used to happen, cept they used to get scratched.

Go back to the old way that worked alot better than now.

There's a reasonn that there are way more babblers in the hunts now than then. It's because of that stinkin free pass to babble minute.

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12-12-2011 07:19 PM

Okie Dawg
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2009
Location: Tonkawa Oklahoma
Posts: 5587

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
No, the minute ALLOWS them to get away with it.

Without a minute rule I can walk them across a pasture then turn around and send them back the way I came in and minus their butts for babbling.

We had far less babblers in the hunts before they put that stupid rule in place to allow them to babble for a minute without penalty.

By the time a minute is up they can usually get deep enough in to cause question as to whether they are actually struck or not.

Without it they are barking right in the light, right in front of us, barkin at the other dogs or whatever.

That's what used to happen, cept they used to get scratched.

Go back to the old way that worked alot better than now.

There's a reasonn that there are way more babblers in the hunts now than then. It's because of that stinkin free pass to babble minute.

If they don't leave babbleing and get that far away before they open then they probubly aren't. They may be running junk but chances are they aren't babbleing.
As far as cutting them across were you have just walked won't prove nothing. I can't count the times mine has found a track walking to were we are going to cut them. If you cut her that direction she would strike. But then chances are she would be first to the tree allso. But if she wsn't I guess people would say she was babbleing.

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12-12-2011 07:52 PM

RHK
Banned

Registered: Sep 2011
Location: ohio
Posts: 808

dont scratch the babblers....shoot them

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12-12-2011 08:02 PM

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Rip
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

quote:
Originally posted by Okie Dawg
If they don't leave babbleing and get that far away before they open then they probubly aren't. They may be running junk but chances are they aren't babbleing.
As far as cutting them across were you have just walked won't prove nothing. I can't count the times mine has found a track walking to were we are going to cut them. If you cut her that direction she would strike. But then chances are she would be first to the tree allso. But if she wsn't I guess people would say she was babbleing.

That's the point. They are now allowed to LEAVE BABBLING and by the time the minute is up they are in there deep enough that folks have a hard time minusing them.

The old way was the best way. No grace period. Dog opens then it opens and you take what you get.

It's easier to get rid of the babblers that way. That's why the amount of babblers in the hunts got exponentially higher after they started allowing babblers to go a minute without punnishment.

Now you can't hardly go to a hunt without drawing babblers. It used to be rare to draw one, now it's rare NOT to.

What changed in all that time? The stinkin minute that's what.

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12-12-2011 09:20 PM

max destruction
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Registered: Sep 2009
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Posts: 1648

Theres only 1 way to beat em,TREE MORE COON! Who cares if they babbleslick tree or are silent,how are any of them things affecting the ability of your to tree racoons? Ya ive been beat by babblers and dogs that slick tree all nite but ive also been beat by dogs that dont babble or slick tree!!

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12-12-2011 11:02 PM

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Okie Dawg
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2009
Location: Tonkawa Oklahoma
Posts: 5587

quote:
Originally posted by max destruction
Theres only 1 way to beat em,TREE MORE COON! Who cares if they babbleslick tree or are silent,how are any of them things affecting the ability of your to tree racoons? Ya ive been beat by babblers and dogs that slick tree all nite but ive also been beat by dogs that dont babble or slick tree!!

I think you might be the smartest person I have seen on this topic...................

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12-13-2011 04:05 AM

Tim MACHA
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Troy Iowa
Posts: 2159

I think we will have to agree to disagree

Yes, if my dog was quicker to strike, he would get more strike points. Mine just has a tendency to get on the track before opening instead of just barking on first scent. Does that may him less of a dog? Only when you are using a score card. If we were going by cur rules where there are no strike points, only tree points, the outcome would be totally different.

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12-13-2011 05:22 PM

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Harley Smith
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Registered: Jul 2011
Location: Selmer Tn
Posts: 626

if he smells a coon i want him to open as soon as he smells it, and I want him to tree it as soon as he finds it, and I want him to stay there till i come get him

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12-13-2011 05:50 PM

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Okie Dawg
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2009
Location: Tonkawa Oklahoma
Posts: 5587

Re: I think we will have to agree to disagree

quote:
Originally posted by Tim MACHA
Yes, if my dog was quicker to strike, he would get more strike points. Mine just has a tendency to get on the track before opening instead of just barking on first scent. Does that may him less of a dog? Only when you are using a score card. If we were going by cur rules where there are no strike points, only tree points, the outcome would be totally different.

Yep that is the whole thing in a nut shell.

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12-13-2011 06:26 PM

patches9452
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2007
Location: ackerman,ms
Posts: 2229

quote:
Originally posted by max destruction
Theres only 1 way to beat em,TREE MORE COON! Who cares if they babbleslick tree or are silent,how are any of them things affecting the ability of your to tree racoons? Ya ive been beat by babblers and dogs that slick tree all nite but ive also been beat by dogs that dont babble or slick tree!!

if you tree every coon and ole mouthy me tooer gets the strike and second tree you just got ur butt handed to you.... the rules are there for a purpose... to keep the hounds balanced to much either way is a fault

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12-13-2011 07:34 PM

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max destruction
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Than countdown tree will fix that problem!

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12-13-2011 08:28 PM

patches9452
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2007
Location: ackerman,ms
Posts: 2229

quote:
Originally posted by max destruction
Than countdown tree will fix that problem!

why add a rule when you can just enforce the ones you already have and get the same outcome.... i promise you a good me too dog will still get second tree even with a countdown unless ur dog is silent

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12-13-2011 08:57 PM

max destruction
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mee too dogs win more than babblers so why not fix the problem all together? I havnt seen many mee too dogs fair well in pkc around here.

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12-13-2011 09:54 PM

Okie Dawg
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Location: Tonkawa Oklahoma
Posts: 5587

Some one is messing up if they get beet by a me to dog. They will never get first tree.............Not accuseing anyone on here but I think a lot of the complaints come from jellous handlers. Seams like a lot of people that has a dog come in second on a tree just call that dog a me to dog becouse it wasn't the first one there.

That and an open mouthed dog is a babbler if it wins. I know there a lot of babblers and me too dogs out there BUT I think it is used as an excuse for looseing a lot more often than it actually happens.

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12-13-2011 10:32 PM

max destruction
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quote:
Originally posted by Okie Dawg
Some one is messing up if they get beet by a me to dog. They will never get first tree.............Not accuseing anyone on here but I think a lot of the complaints come from jellous handlers. Seams like a lot of people that has a dog come in second on a tree just call that dog a me to dog becouse it wasn't the first one there.

That and an open mouthed dog is a babbler if it wins. I know there a lot of babblers and me too dogs out there BUT I think it is used as an excuse for looseing a lot more often than it actually happens.

Agreed,theres a big diffrence between 2nd tree and covering!

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12-13-2011 10:35 PM

Rip
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

quote:
Originally posted by Okie Dawg
Some one is messing up if they get beet by a me to dog. They will never get first tree.............Not accuseing anyone on here but I think a lot of the complaints come from jellous handlers. Seams like a lot of people that has a dog come in second on a tree just call that dog a me to dog becouse it wasn't the first one there.

That and an open mouthed dog is a babbler if it wins. I know there a lot of babblers and me too dogs out there BUT I think it is used as an excuse for looseing a lot more often than it actually happens.

Actually on the babbling, no it's not. It's just downright awful anymore. It's gotten to the point I am suprised if I draw any less than 2 babblers per cast.

Talking about dogs that would bark down the yellow line of a 4 lane highway.

They are in for 100 every drop because by the time the minute is up they have another cast member or so convinced thier babbling dog is actually struck.

That's 100 points, every single time it's cut loose. If there's two in the cast, and any more it's getting to be that way, the best an honest strike dog can hope for is 50 strike, but remember you are competing with the other honest strike dog so you may end up with 25.

There is a reason people do not want the minute done away with. It's so they can keep "packin that hunnerd with em" because it's a huge advantage to get 100 strike every drop cause it's points they don't have to compete for.

The only reason to keep the minute, especially in light of the fact that since introducing the minute babblers have went from rare to common, is to allow people to continue to steal points with a babbling dog.

Why woudn't anyone want that minute done away with and make the dog accountable for what it does?? That's what I can't figgure out....... well I do know why, it's so they can continue to steal points, but I mean an HONEST reason LOL.

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12-13-2011 11:12 PM

patches9452
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you are correct okie.... thats why i said me too and babbler the combo can be very hard to beat... i have been beat by better dogs and screwing up myself way more than either one of these but my point is if you follow the rules in place you dont need any new ones.... the tree countdown cost way more people wins because someone can take 25 than it does keeping someone from recieving 75

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12-13-2011 11:16 PM

Okie Dawg
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Location: Tonkawa Oklahoma
Posts: 5587

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
Actually on the babbling, no it's not. It's just downright awful anymore. It's gotten to the point I am suprised if I draw any less than 2 babblers per cast.

Talking about dogs that would bark down the yellow line of a 4 lane highway.

They are in for 100 every drop because by the time the minute is up they have another cast member or so convinced thier babbling dog is actually struck.

That's 100 points, every single time it's cut loose. If there's two in the cast, and any more it's getting to be that way, the best an honest strike dog can hope for is 50 strike, but remember you are competing with the other honest strike dog so you may end up with 25.

There is a reason people do not want the minute done away with. It's so they can keep "packin that hunnerd with em" because it's a huge advantage to get 100 strike every drop cause it's points they don't have to compete for.

The only reason to keep the minute, especially in light of the fact that since introducing the minute babblers have went from rare to common, is to allow people to continue to steal points with a babbling dog.

Why woudn't anyone want that minute done away with and make the dog accountable for what it does?? That's what I can't figgure out....... well I do know why, it's so they can continue to steal points, but I mean an HONEST reason LOL.

In that case all you have to do is withdraw your do. Then stay for the rest of the hunt and scratch the babbler.
Here we will scratch a babbler just the way the rules are. If it opens it better work a track. Take the cast to thin coon. If it opens and there is not another dog running you will be able to tell. If the good dog opens in a differant direction and it goes there minuse for leaveing a track. You don't have to prove the obvious. All you have to do is have the back bone to say that dog is babbleing. If the rest of the cast doesn't think so then you could be wrong.
The cast I was on the other night accused mine of leaveing a tree. Sounded like it was in the same spot and she NEVER leaves a tree. Guess what, she left the tree and I was WRONG.......
To make up for it though she allso left the skunk killing the other 3 was involved in. LOL

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12-13-2011 11:50 PM

Okie Dawg
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2009
Location: Tonkawa Oklahoma
Posts: 5587

quote:
Originally posted by patches9452
you are correct okie.... thats why i said me too and babbler the combo can be very hard to beat... i have been beat by better dogs and screwing up myself way more than either one of these but my point is if you follow the rules in place you dont need any new ones.... the tree countdown cost way more people wins because someone can take 25 than it does keeping someone from recieving 75

YEP.....the tree count down wouldn't bother me one way or the other except it is just another thing to time. If you get in the woods with these dogs that go seperate ways and don't compete against each other. You get a lot of things being times at the same time. It gets hard for me to keep up with. Now befor everybody tells me how stupid I am. I allready know. A half of a 9th. grade education doesn't get you much.

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12-13-2011 11:56 PM

Rip
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

quote:
Originally posted by Okie Dawg
In that case all you have to do is withdraw your do. Then stay for the rest of the hunt and scratch the babbler.
Here we will scratch a babbler just the way the rules are. If it opens it better work a track. Take the cast to thin coon. If it opens and there is not another dog running you will be able to tell. If the good dog opens in a differant direction and it goes there minuse for leaveing a track. You don't have to prove the obvious. All you have to do is have the back bone to say that dog is babbleing. If the rest of the cast doesn't think so then you could be wrong.
The cast I was on the other night accused mine of leaveing a tree. Sounded like it was in the same spot and she NEVER leaves a tree. Guess what, she left the tree and I was WRONG.......
To make up for it though she allso left the skunk killing the other 3 was involved in. LOL

I don't want to withdraw my dog. I want to hinder the babblers from stealing points.

That's why I want the minute REMOVED, GONE, CAPUT.

Right now it's the NORM to draw 2 babblers. Try and get that minused if you are not the judge. It's tough because by the time they strike them the "grace period" has them in there deep enough that without experience they can convince somebody else their babbler is on a track.

Everybody claims to want these convoluted solutions when the simplest one is just do away with the minute.

It's not so much for me, but for the direction the hounds are going. We have entirely changed the "NORM" in all coonhound breeds so that now it's normal to draw babblers every cast.

Before the minute it was rare to draw a babbler period. Now it's rare not to have at least one to two on EVERY SINGLE CAST.

But now babbling is bred for, it's "part of the game". People love to "carry that hunnerd with em" and it has resulted in changing all the dogs to where babbling is becoming a COMMON problem.

That's what I have against it.

I won't own a babbler, but if the minute stays in place it won't be long till it will be RARE TO FIND ONE THAT DON'T BABBLE. That's where we are going.

So when you have a problem you need to eliminate the root/cause of that problem. The cause of it was implementation of the minute. Just eliminate it and eventually we will get back to having dogs that don't have to be broke from babblin by the honest hunters.

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12-14-2011 03:35 AM

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