Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Lake Panasoffkee, Florida
Posts: 1116

quote:

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Originally posted by jason2579
I too don't believe titles make a dog but as sad as it is try to sell a litter nowadays without titled parents or try to get someone to breed to your dog without a title. You could take some people out with every pup out your male or female and everyone of them could be coon treeing machines and do it the right way and they will sit there and tell how nice they are then turn around and say But he's not titled she's not titled so i don't think i'll take one or breed to him or her. That's just the facts of it titles move dogs alot dogs get over looked cause of it. Alot dogs with just a NT Champion title get over looked caused their not Grand. You could be as honest about your dog as the day is long and even take them hunting with offspring and show what he is reproducing and still won't make difference cause as of right now titles sell pups and titles get your hound bred to. As sad as it is if you what keep a good thing going in your own breeding program you may have to go find that special male or female to buy for yourself and breed for yourself. JMO

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Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1839

quote:

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Originally posted by Rough Northern
So True.

Lots of pleasure hunters and hide hunters own dogs that can tree a coon but could never earn a nite hunt degree. Thus, to them the titles dont mean anything.

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Al Tarantella

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Location: New Paris, Indiana
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The worth of the UKC titles would no doubt be much greater in value if we knew how and where the titles were earned. For example, a dog that gets it's 8 wins towards Grand by cherry picking local level events that never draw more than one cast of dogs is a hellofa lot easier to counterfeit than a dog that got half it's wins at RQE's, Slam events, breed day events and other major events with the rest coming at club level events that drew at least 3 casts of dogs in the class you hunt. If you knew all that, the how and where of those wins, you would place a lot more value on those titles. Of course that is not gonna happen but it could be done fairly easily. UKC could certainly setup up a program that would allow you to type in a dogs UKC number and show here the wins came from and how many dogs hunted that event in the class your dog competed.

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UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
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AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
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Registered: Jan 2011
Location: Rockmart, Ga.
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quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
The worth of the UKC titles would no doubt be much greater in value if we knew how and where the titles were earned. For example, a dog that gets it's 8 wins towards Grand by cherry picking local level events that never draw more than one cast of dogs is a hellofa lot easier to counterfeit than a dog that got half it's wins at RQE's, Slam events, breed day events and other major events with the rest coming at club level events that drew at least 3 casts of dogs in the class you hunt. If you knew all that, the how and where of those wins, you would place a lot more value on those titles. Of course that is not gonna happen but it could be done fairly easily. UKC could certainly setup up a program that would allow you to type in a dogs UKC number and show here the wins came from and how many dogs hunted that event in the class your dog competed.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 6544

quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
The worth of the UKC titles would no doubt be much greater in value if we knew how and where the titles were earned. For example, a dog that gets it's 8 wins towards Grand by cherry picking local level events that never draw more than one cast of dogs is a hellofa lot easier to counterfeit than a dog that got half it's wins at RQE's, Slam events, breed day events and other major events with the rest coming at club level events that drew at least 3 casts of dogs in the class you hunt. If you knew all that, the how and where of those wins, you would place a lot more value on those titles. Of course that is not gonna happen but it could be done fairly easily. UKC could certainly setup up a program that would allow you to type in a dogs UKC number and show here the wins came from and how many dogs hunted that event in the class your dog competed.

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Larry Atherton

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Another great suggestion!

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AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
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Registered: Aug 2007
Location: Tuscaloosa, AL
Posts: 187

I wasn't going to comment on this post, just enjoy people's opinions, but this has long been a bit of an issue with me so here is my two cents worth...

I am not a big name breeder or hunter but I know good dogs. My grandfather was a professional retriever & upland bird hunting trainer and I grew up helping him in the field with his dogs. I choose coon hunting when I was a senior in high school but I think I look at the hound world a bit different because of the canine background I came from.

My first female hound was one I still to this day own, Moko. I found her for sale in the local newspaper and bought her strictly as a UKC reg pup. Her breeder was super nice and her parents were good hide dogs. He wasn't a competition hunter, just a pleasure hunter, and he bred dog to dog. She has not a bit of line breeding to her and you have to get to her second & thrid generation to find a titled dog. My grandfather was big on bloodlines (Elhew bred pointers is all he would personally own) but I told him all titled dogs started as a PR' at some point so she was no different in my eyes. Moko was a natural tree dog and we got her going pretty quick. Treeing easy coons at about 9-10 months old. Then she was injured hunting; a stick through the neck & nicked her vocal cord, but instead of letting her stand in a pen I started showing her. With just a little bit of work she became a natural bench dog also for she had outstanding conformation. From the bench we moved on to UKC all breed shows where she also titled.

When she turned 3 I decided to breed her. The first time I bred her was to an all grand dual grand pkc ch stud dog. I had hunted with this dog several times, liked his temperment, conformation, mouth, and of course he treed coons. THOSE WERE MY DECIDING FACTORS. The fact he had a beautiful pedigree & multiple titles yes looked nice when selling extra pups but I would have bred her to him regardless. Especially when almost any male would have been an outcross on her, due to her scattered bloodline. All of the pups I have been able to keep up with have turned out. They're now closing in on 3 yrs old. I kept one female and she was a UKC GRCH with field trials pts, water races pts, AKC show points, UKC conformation show points, obedience pts, and was quite accomplished in the woods when she was hit and killed on the road. The second cross was to my own show titled male but I would have proudly taken him hunting with anyone. Seven pups, and five are titled, both show and performance events.

All titles on my dogs show that I enjoy taking them to events. It shows I spent the time, money, and effort to campeign them. At the end of the day no papers don't tree coons. It is simply a record of showing what dogs have been promoted. It allows you to make an educated GUESS on what your dog COULD produce. That being said I do like to line breed, by using papers and pedigrees as a guide. My Redbones will all be line breedings when crossed, and I choose them based on their specific bloodlines depending on what I was purchasing them for. This should produce more of a "cookie cutter" litter vs taking a wild guess on a outcross.

You can play devil's advocate all day with there a GRNTCHs worth $10,000 and GRNTCHs not worth a bullet. There are hide dogs that could out hunt anything, and some that just look better on the porch. But at the end of the day I'd rather loose with something I'm happy with and proud of vs win with whatever is "hot" at the moment but I don't truely enjoy owning or hunting. So yes, I own a PR' bred female I love dearly BUT one of my other pride and joys is an Insane X male. I own both ends of the spectrum

Pedigree indicates what the animal should be. Conformation indicates what the animal appears to be. But PERFORMANCE indicates what the animal actually is

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Last edited by KAYLA090205 on 11-30-2011 at 04:46 PM

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Registered: Jan 2010
Location: Greene County Ohio
Posts: 1264

quote:

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Originally posted by perry co cooner
Maybe but there are a lot of dogs that have nite hunt degrees that aren't worth a wooden nickel. anyone that says different is talking out of their A$$ or just lying.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 6544

Ah I changed my mind ... it won't do any good any how.

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Larry Atherton

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Last edited by Larry Atherton on 11-30-2011 at 06:42 PM

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Location: Maryland
Posts: 582

It never ceases to amaze me with how many people post a question about "what should I breed to".

In almost all cases many responses and opinions are given based on popularity of a given stud without any regard or consideration to strenghts, weaknesses and qualities each dog has.

Breedings should be made to better or improve dogs not to sell pups for big $$ based on popularity polls. No wonder there are so many useless culls being produced.
.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: cambridge,ohio
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quote:

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Originally posted by MikeR
It never ceases to amaze me with how many people post a question about "what should I breed to".

In almost all cases many responses and opinions are given based on popularity of a given stud without any regard or consideration to strenghts, weaknesses and qualities each dog has.

Breedings should be made to better or improve dogs not to sell pups for big $$ based on popularity polls. No wonder there are so many useless culls being produced.
.

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Registered: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa
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quote:

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Originally posted by wildbill
when they ASK WHAT TO BREED TO

they are just primeing the board waiting for one of the monthly wonderdog owners to offer a free breeding so they can sell pups,,

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Registered: Jan 2010
Location: Greene County Ohio
Posts: 1264

I also think its nice to have a good hound out of something that everyone and their brother isnt hunting. I like to have something a little different.

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Registered: Sep 2003
Location:
Posts: 2785

"Papers don't tree coons "

"Just because it's a coondog ... dont' mean it will reproduce."

" Titles don't make it a coondog"

What is the point of regurgitating sayings that were dumb to start with and have been printed a jillion times ?

People say stuff to make themselves look smart , inventing a pretend argument that they are the pretend winner of , lol .... I've never , ever seen anyone say " Papers tree coons" .


There are "PR" dogs that come from well known dogs .... that are titled ... that produce ... and are coondogs... and that look good too !

If everyone put in the work to keep at least one of those in the kennel ..... there would be peace in the land and we could all hold hands and sing Christmas Carols.

It would at least give some of those old , worn out sayings a rest ..... poor things can't lay their head down for a nap without having to show up for work in some silly argument.

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Location: Raywick Ky
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quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
. UKC could certainly setup up a program that would allow you to type in a dogs UKC number and show here the wins came from and how many dogs hunted that event in the class your dog competed.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: cambridge,ohio
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quote:

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Originally posted by CSnowgren
Thats BS. I have done it before with the intent to maybe uncover, or make me aware, of a dog that I didn't know about. But, I have seen some do it and actually claim to want to see which one is the most popular so they could sell the pups. Backwards to my way of thinking but thats why I haven't bred a litter in just over 5 years. I have what I need and as she is getting older, I'd like to replace her with one of her own.... to hopefully the right stud dog.

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Registered: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa
Posts: 928

quote:

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Originally posted by wildbill
lmao,,you say its BS then counterdict yourself by saying you seen it done...

then you counterdict yourself again,
you want to replace your female with one of her pups but you want to breed her to the RIGHT STUD DOG,,

dont you mean the best COONDOG that matchs your female,,lol

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Registered: May 2010
Location: NorthWest Louisiana
Posts: 715

People are funny sometimes. 99% of people on here comp hunt. When there dog doesn't get titled they find a million excuses then say titles mean nothing. Maybe titles aren't the deciding factor but they do help. At least you know the dog was some sort of a coondog at least 8 times. If you truly want to know what a dog can do and reproduce go hunt with the dogs being crossed. If you like what you see keep 4 or 5 out of a litter and see what the results are. Just because a dog is titled doesn't mean he is the best in the country but I will bet he is some sort of a coondog. I will also bet the majority of hide hunters are not on here butting heads.
I agree it maybe easier to win at the local level but in the south that's about all we have. We are poor boys down here. Heck if I had money I may not have to follow these blue dogs around.
Good luck to everyone on this one its gonna last a while.

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Nothing wrong at all with hunting and titling dogs at the local level. If your local events are drawing enough dogs to make it a competition, I'll respect those titles as much as any other. If a dog titles at 8 hunts that never drew 2 casts of dogs, that's a whole nother matter.

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AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
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quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
Nothing wrong at all with hunting and titling dogs at the local level. If your local events are drawing enough dogs to make it a competition, I'll respect those titles as much as any other. If a dog titles at 8 hunts that never drew 2 casts of dogs, that's a whole nother matter.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: cambridge,ohio
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quote:

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Originally posted by CSnowgren
You spoke in absolute terms and yes, in that sense it is BS. But I agreed with you in that I have seen it done before. As far as stud dog or coondog.....if it ain't a coon dog, it ain't a stud dog for my purposes. The little chuckle you gave yourself was truly only a chuckle to you. So yes, the right stud dog is what I said and what I meant. I make no apologies for it going over your head.

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