Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:

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Originally posted by Diggerman
If you want a better English, breed to a better English.

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Jeremy Harris

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Joe - yes, I found her. Or actually she found the neighbor with all the dogs.

And you're right... I need a good tracking collar, that will hold a charge and won't slip off her little head. Coincidentally, I lost her on the same fence row, Shane's dog slipped her collar.

David Schmidt

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bigdiezel79 - I really don't mean to be rude, nor do I want to turn this into a debate, as opposed to a conversation. But I think Diggerman was making another point, as opposed to missing yours. If you want a colder nosed Walker, breed to a colder nosed Walker. It's not the breed that has the issue, but perhaps the hounds you've hunted with.

I've got a Walker that is by no means perfect. In fact some nights, he looks down right terrible. But he made Nite Champion in a handful of hunts, treeing coon in the snow, that other dogs couldn't even begin to smell. And there were English in almost all of those casts.

However, he does have some traits that I dislike, which I will look to counteract with the crosses I make. This goes back to my point of having more information on the lines we do have, so you can make better line-breeding and out-cross decisions.

In general, my thought is that if someone doesn't like any of the blue dogs, red dogs, black dogs, or tri-colored, by all means redefine them and keep them in your kennel until you get them where you want them. But if you do love a breed, do your best to refine it, not change it.

Just one many's opinion.

David Schmidt

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Alright... new topic.

Can a old-style "pleasure" hound that hunts close and is prone to checking in, still win hunts??? I might argue that the hound that hunts tight, might tree a bunch of coon that those go-yonder dogs pass up, as they horse race to the far side of the woods.

Or at least this is the case here in Northern Indiana, where the coon are plentiful. Besides... wasn't the point of going deep; to get your own coon. And if they all go deep and end up treeing together, after they've worn each other out, haven't they defeated the purpose???

Maybe I'm just getting lazy, but I'm tired of having to "go deep" when it's not necessary.

David Schmidt

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quote:

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Originally posted by deschmidt27
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Alright... new topic.

Can a old-style "pleasure" hound that hunts close and is prone to checking in, still win hunts??? I might argue that the hound that hunts tight, might tree a bunch of coon that those go-yonder dogs pass up, as they horse race to the far side of the woods.

Or at least this is the case here in Northern Indiana, where the coon are plentiful. Besides... wasn't the point of going deep; to get your own coon. And if they all go deep and end up treeing together, after they've worn each other out, haven't they defeated the purpose???

Maybe I'm just getting lazy, but I'm tired of having to "go deep" when it's not necessary.

David Schmidt

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I guess the same high-strung nature that blows them through the country, also get's them struck in earlier, as well. I'm sure there's a relationship there.

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quote:

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Originally posted by deschmidt27
*** Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.***

Alright... new topic.

Can a old-style "pleasure" hound that hunts close and is prone to checking in, still win hunts??? I might argue that the hound that hunts tight, might tree a bunch of coon that those go-yonder dogs pass up, as they horse race to the far side of the woods.

Or at least this is the case here in Northern Indiana, where the coon are plentiful. Besides... wasn't the point of going deep; to get your own coon. And if they all go deep and end up treeing together, after they've worn each other out, haven't they defeated the purpose???

Maybe I'm just getting lazy, but I'm tired of having to "go deep" when it's not necessary.

David Schmidt

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You're right Joe... in that I don't want them to quit hunting, before they finish hunting the woods. I guess my thought was that around here, that shouldn't happen as there are very few woods without at least a few coon in them. And yes, I too recall the dogs that made a 100-200 yard circle and then gave up. And that's not want I want either.

On the flip-side, I don't want a dog to hunt a 3 foot wide path straight through the woods, and then blow out the back side and go to that woods on the horizon. I want them to hunt where I dropped them... if I want them to go to that other woods, I'll take them there. Of course, if I'm hunting where there are less coon, I'll probably cuss them, when the other dogs in the cast went yonder and got treed. I guess I want my cake and eat it to...

What is real embarassing, is when a guide takes you to a beautiful woods, fully equipped with lanes to make easy walking around for us hunters, and I and another handler refuse to cut our dogs on a trail, because we know they'll horse race through the woods. Yes, that really happened...

David Schmidt

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some of it probably has to do with where you hunt. we have few coons. we also still have spots with big timber and and not alot of roads. i guess it boils down to how far you want to hike. with the go yonder dogs i feel like i'm hunting dogs, not coon.

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I have won or placed in as big a hunts as anyone. Heres a little secret.......coondogs will win hunts, but just as often handlers do it for them.

There is just no way to coin the essence of a COONDOG and make rules to insure the best hound wins.

first strikes are taken by babblers, dogs that open on water/fences/ ect......and nobody has come up with a way yet to prove a dog who opens its mouth as soon as its out of sight and keeps it open till the tree is scored, is not opening honest.

You almost NEVER see a tree minused in a scorecard hunt. unless its Nailer bred and trees up saplings or corn stalks .

A good honest solid COONDOG will win its share, but just as often a dog and handler who have tons of practice using the loopholes in the rules in there favor win.

I quit going to the hunts. My proving ground is now a .22 rifle.....and it works just as well at removing those who dont make the grade from the gene pool.

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I dont do nite hunts would like to try but dont know if my pleasure hound could do it. I got a blue female that will hunt and rarely check in. I like a dog to check in but not to often. but if the coon arent there or are not moving i dont want to waste my time in that spot either I want her to come back and we will move on. We hunt a spot 142 acres and I dont know what you consider deep but for me 400 yards and no locate is to far. I can not stand a dog that will barrel down a road or 4 wheeler trail and pass up a bunch of coons. My dog will do that sometines but when she does she will race out to about 500 then hunt her way back towards me why she does that I have no idea. I dont like a dog that is independent and maybe that is why I dont comp hunt. If my dog is out hunting and another hound is hunting and one opens up I want my dog to come in and help the other out unless mine is already treed then she better stay treed. I am out there to pleasure hunt and it isnt any fun for me if you are hunting 2 dogs and they both go in different directions. i want them together. but I dont want them busting out of the country to get a coon. Southwest ohio has plent of coon. Around here a dog should get treed within 200 to 300 yards of any given spot you drop them.

Doug

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And Dave kudos to you.interesting thread. Us newer guys could learn alot from threads like this lets keep it going. Been thinking lately of getting a female in hopes of breeding someday and breeding for the purpose of a male that I like.

Doug

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Hmmmm I never had the experience of a coffee shop. I have sat at the fire of fox hunters a few times through the years.

I would have to say the closest thing we have to a coffee shop is Ben Crocker's fur shed during hunting season.

Good conversations guys.

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I love the crossbreds. Especially when there single regestered. Bellars Anne, Tennessee Hard Rock, just to name a few. I personally havent had any but I like the idea. A coondogs a coondog no matter how there bred. Bellars Anne and Hard Rock were two of the best dogs in the world. If I had another breed besides a walker Id definately put a little Clover or Nailor in tham. (My two favorite lines)

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I feel several of the breeds would greatly benefit from crossbreeding once or twice. Something new to fit into the equation, something that has what that breed has always lacked or been without. I for one feel some breedersof all breeds but mainly a specific few, have become too wrapped up in Looks and breed standards and have forgotten about Performance and ability( i posted this same thing in another thread). Because of this i feel other breeds have become STAGNANT or not progressing at all and at the rate they are at....they never will.

Do not get me wrong , some standard is halfway needed but when i hear things like an "off colored" or Od-ball pup in a litter needs to be culled because hes just an "odd-ball" that is just absurd(EX: silver;mouse colored pups;blue eyed pups). You should breed for game Drive, Desire , mouth , Etc, way before i will breed for any kind of looks

For example, couple years ago i drew some redbone fellas in a cast (very nice guys) . The dogs they were hunting were pretty average redbones but had some big holes in them. I told them about a Red male that i had hunted with and he was the single best Redbone i have been in the woods with, he had it all. The DRIVE, MOUTH, TRACK SPEED, ACCURACY , But was just owned by a hide hunter . They answered me saying they knew of the dog but with the fact he had 2-white feet and a white blaze on his chest and that he needed to be neutered and never bred. They then talked about another Red male they planned on breeding to. they had never hunted with the dog but talked about how nice looking he was and went back to some famous old dog a couple times in his pedigree.....couple months later i drew the dog they were talking about and ya wanna talk about a cull....I then realized why the breed is the way it is. I feel when you see a pup in a litter that looks very Unique it has a GIANT sign on it that says pick me, Im special!!!

Not pointing fingers at any certain breed its just the only personal example i had. I can think of a couple other of the breeds that are just as bad.

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Daniel - I appreciate your perspective, but it is a completely different train of thought than most "breeders" have.

I guess I always considered a "breeder" someone that was maintaing and/or developing a particular breed. And if that's your goal, then there is some standard to adhere to. Otherwise... you're not breeding a breed, you're just breeding dogs.

A mix, a mutt, or a "cur" is just that, and completely fine if your just looking for a capable hunter, but if you want to own a specific breed, you can't just cross whatever you want. In other words, if you say you raise poodles, you can't breed one to a bull dog. If you say you own just coon dogs, without specifying Walker, Redbone, etc, then you can do as you wish.

I'm not saying either perspective is right or wrong... just different trains of thought. But... I also agree that coon hounds are working dogs, and can't just be bred on looks alone, unless you don't care if they "work".

David Schmidt

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dwils
I feel several of the breeds would greatly benefit from crossbreeding once or twice.

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Dave and Larry

You both have good points; i guess i came off on my post being a little bit radical i guess lol.

But Dave thats like calling Bellars LIl Red and Tennesee Hardrock "muts"

I wasnt saying start crossing these dogs on a regular basis but once or twice and see what happens. Will i ever mess with it?? No probably not i am a walker man and own nothing but



Dave - this was a great idea, Now guys can engage in conversations without arguments- I like it

Daniel

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dwils
i guess i came off on my post being a little bit radical i guess lol.

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Not a bit ... this is just a conversation. Now if ya want to tell me my Chevy truck stinks ... that is a bit too radical for me.

Naw just kiddy.

I just think the difference in the collective gene pools of our breeds aren't really all that different, and that cross breeding the color genes won't give us the hybrid vigor that one may benefit from a typical cross breeding.

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Larry Atherton

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Daniel - i know "mutt" seems harsh, when you're talking about a talented dog, but I think you saw what I was getting at.

I hope we can keep this going, without all the drama and arguments. So far, so good...


David Schmidt

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quote:

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Originally posted by Larry Atherton
Not a bit ... this is just a conversation. Now if ya want to tell me my Chevy truck stinks ... that is a bit too radical for me.

Naw just kiddy.

I just think the difference in the collective gene pools of our breeds aren't really all that different, and that cross breeding the color genes won't give us the hybrid vigor that one may benefit from a typical cross breeding.

---

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Jeremy Harris

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Dwils
I feel several of the breeds would greatly benefit from crossbreeding once or twice. Something new to fit into the equation, something that has what that breed has always lacked or been without. I for one feel some breedersof all breeds but mainly a specific few, have become too wrapped up in Looks and breed standards and have forgotten about Performance and ability( i posted this same thing in another thread). Because of this i feel other breeds have become STAGNANT or not progressing at all and at the rate they are at....they never will.

Do not get me wrong , some standard is halfway needed but when i hear things like an "off colored" or Od-ball pup in a litter needs to be culled because hes just an "odd-ball" that is just absurd(EX: silver;mouse colored pups;blue eyed pups). You should breed for game Drive, Desire , mouth , Etc, way before i will breed for any kind of looks

For example, couple years ago i drew some redbone fellas in a cast (very nice guys) . The dogs they were hunting were pretty average redbones but had some big holes in them. I told them about a Red male that i had hunted with and he was the single best Redbone i have been in the woods with, he had it all. The DRIVE, MOUTH, TRACK SPEED, ACCURACY , But was just owned by a hide hunter . They answered me saying they knew of the dog but with the fact he had 2-white feet and a white blaze on his chest and that he needed to be neutered and never bred. They then talked about another Red male they planned on breeding to. they had never hunted with the dog but talked about how nice looking he was and went back to some famous old dog a couple times in his pedigree.....couple months later i drew the dog they were talking about and ya wanna talk about a cull....I then realized why the breed is the way it is. I feel when you see a pup in a litter that looks very Unique it has a GIANT sign on it that says pick me, Im special!!!

Not pointing fingers at any certain breed its just the only personal example i had. I can think of a couple other of the breeds that are just as bad.

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quote:

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Originally posted by CWT
Surprisingly I agree with most of this. I am new to this whole thing but I am interested in breeding one day. i am a Bluetick man. I like a dog that has the confirmation and the ability both equally. I know that is a rare dog. But isn't breeding for confirmation and ability how we better them. I understand a coondog is supposed to run a coon but I like coondogs for a reason. The long ears the slender look and the bawl on a track. I have to have a coondog that is all houndy with the looks and the ability. But like I said above I agree with most of what you said. If I know of a blue dog that has a blue eye and the coloration is different then normal but can flat run a track I myself would honestly be torn. Cause a blue eye does not do well on the bench at most places. So does a breeder breed this dog for a dual purpose hound and hope the pups meet the breed standards for the bench and run a good track?

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I agree with Dwills. i have never bred coon dogs, just bought pups or dogs off of people.
We did however breed and raise some dang good bird dogs during the heydays of bird hunting in the early 60's, 70's up until the quail were gone. We hunted some high powered pointers, Regan's White Knight line, gunsmoke, Mississippi Traveler etc. We owned some of the best bird hounds in the area....but our absolute best dog we had and I mean a fine as dog as God ever put on this earth was the result of our best pointer hooking up with our best english setter. He was a ugly son of a gun, but I would have hunted that dog against any dog in the country. For first two seasons we didn't miss one single day of quail season with this dog. He had it all, tracking ability, gobs of drive, would not bust a bird, great at locating coveys and just as good on singles,never missed a dead bird, he had all the best traits of the two breeds of the stud and bitch. Being a pleasure hunter I would have no issue cross breeding two different breeds of great coonhounds, isn't the purpose of breeding to raise the best possible dog. No one should be afraid of putting their high bred papered dog up against one of these hines 57's in a nite hunt, if they really believe in their breeding program getting tangible results.

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Let's keep the conversation going, with a new topic...

Autumn Oaks is a huge event, and I wonder if it got so big because everyone wants to win the Oaks, or are there so many people hunting because they are there, and they are there, because so many others are.

In other words is the event big, because of the hunt, or is the hunt big, because of the event???

I personally think it's the latter, because so many show up to catch up with old friends, which has made it so special to so many. Either way, it's a great event for the sport...

David Schmidt

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