Registered: Mar 2009
Location: s.c.
Posts: 6984

OK. Some of these responses have me questioning definitions again. Definition of " hot nose" to me means a dog with a P-- Pore nose, one thats got to take off and haul it till he almost sees a coon and then chase it up a tree. (I call that a "pop up" not a layup.) Cold nose means to me a dog that can smell a long gone cold track. If he takes it but can't realy work it then he does a lot of booing (not babbling) but not moving it. Babbling is my definition of opening when there aint nothin there to smell. (I have also used the term "babble" when my jack russel got excited and barked about 100 times while the hounds barked a dozen).

Correct me if I'm wrong, "I did not have sex with that woman" means one thing to some and another to another cause it all depends on what the definition if "is" is. "

Can a hot nose dog tree a layup? A 'layup' to me means a coon that has layed up drunk all day and now it's night but he aint got out of bed yet. So I doubt it. A hot nose dog has to fall over one one minute gone and might not be able to get out but two barks before the dang thing climbs. A cold nose dog, on the other hand passes under an Oak in September October where a coon, if he ain't cuttin acorns , comes down, eats and goes back up in the morning. A hot nose dog don't even know that coons in the world. Now a dog with a cold nose with no brains will try to make that track go somewhere and boo around while a dog with a nose and brains will tree you a layup. Why should he make a track out of something that aint left a track? You might could call him silent since he fell to treeing.

Beats me Supreme Court Judges, ya'll pass a ruling.

Last edited by l.lyle on 04-30-2010 at 08:49 AM

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Registered: Jan 2009
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 2814

I will go along with L.Lyle's definitions.

I used to breed 2 seperate strains of English, one that would go under the "hot nose" label, one that would go under the "cold nose" label. When I say cold nose, I mean dogs that will finish what they start with the meat. I have no use for babblers, track wallowers, track jackers and the like. Some dogs have better noses than others and a few cold nose dogs have the brains to use their nose.

I never hunted with Speck but judging his offspring which I owned and others that I hunted with, in MY opinion, he was fairly hot nosed. I owned Nite Champions and Grand Nite Champions that had the Hardtime label on them. After spending good money on them, I didn't like them and didn't use them in my breeding program.

A few years bank, I discontinued my "hot nose" strain of English and went to use Mt Curs instead. They have similar noses. As I said before, I have had Mt Curs that operated in a similar fashion as Scott described Speck. They were good Curs, dog I consider World Class in ability. In fact, when I talked to Ed Bates, I was at a PKC World Squirrel Hunt. My Mt Cur Lucy went to the semi finals and I think she could have went farther but the was some possible cheating that took place. I believe if a top handler like Ed was handling Lucy, she may have went farther. I believe Ed was hunting Feists at the time. My talk of Curs is to shed light on traits and noses and what I base my judgement on dog having those traits.

There are a lot of what I consider silent English today. Dogs that rarely open on the ground. They may locate on several different trees, that may be what some call opening on the ground. But a locate bark is a tree bark, not opening on the ground. The English Breed Standards call for an open trailer. The UKC rules call for an open trailer. If Speck only located on several trees before settling on a tree, he would be a silent trailer in my opinion. There are English dogs in the English Hall of Fame listing that were well known silent trailers. It hurts the breed in my opinion.

If I hunt a silent trailer, it will be a Mt Cur. And, I won't be crossing my Curs with my English no matter how big of hunts my Curs may win. That is the way I do things but others have other ways. I would have preferred Speck stayed a Walker. He needed to "help" that breed.

I am a traditional English breeder and I like the traditional English dogs. Speck was a Walker.

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Dave Haugh

LAKELAND KENNELS
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English Coonhounds
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Gr Ch Lakeland's Phoebe
PKC Sq Ch Lakeland's Mini Mouse
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Ch SqCh Lakeland's Lucy
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SqCh Lakeland's Kate
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Registered: Jan 2010
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 10675

junior ( blue boy II) was part walker ,pedro dog too,lakeland kennels did they ruin the english dogs ,dont get me wrong i used to own and run english dog oh yeah i forgot about hillbilly mac being in some pedigrees ,ty chuck west

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Registered: Jan 2006
Location: east/Tennessee
Posts: 479

all this back and forth at each other still dont tell me nothing bout how close i can get to him in the walker line

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Registered: Jun 2007
Location: willis, michigan
Posts: 322

I am a traditional English breeder and I like the traditional English dogs. Speck was a Walker.


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They all were ENGLISH in the begining not so many years ago and not to many behind spec. And as for papering dogs NO ONE KNOWS WHAT THERE DOGS COME FROM BEFORE DNA. You need to let it go DAVE , and yes I do take offince when you talk about the english dogs that way . And I am a 4 th gen. coon hunter I know when a dog is running or locating trees been out with a few that did that and it is not opening on trail . And what hurts the ENGLISH BREED IS NOT BEING OPEN TO CROSSING COON DOGS TO COON DOGS NO MATTER THE COLOR OR THE PED. ISNT THAT HOW THE CURS COME ABOUT ?

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Lloyd Pack

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Registered: Sep 2003
Location: palmer tn
Posts: 101

SPECK WAS BORN IN PELHAM TN JUDGE ELSTEN CLAY OWNED HIS SIRE CLAYS DUKE KING AND IT WAS THE BIRD DOG THAT GAVE HIM THE TICKS AND TIGHT MOUTH TAKE IT TO THE BANK THATS THE TRUTH

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mikescott

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Registered: Aug 2005
Location: ohio
Posts: 102

back in the day when i was young i hunted several dogs out of speck they all where not good but some where real good and yes some where tight on the ground but they didnt start that way they got that way when the gun started cracking they where smart and sneaky just the way i liked them to be they could tree those therty dollar coons that use to help pay the bills and no i dont think they were all hot nosed i treed coons on alot of cold snowey nights and the coonran alot harder back then and where would the english breed be to day if it wasnt for single registration. and this is just my opinon after 38 yrs and millionmiles worth of foot steps ithink i am right

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Registered: May 2008
Location: southcentral arkansas
Posts: 1581

some of the FASTEST dogs with the meat i've every hunted with over the years were speck bred. tight, but triple quick with the meat.

i guided one little redtick gyp owned by ed bates back in the 90's for the little world hunt that treed 3 singles. we waited the 5. went and scored the tree, on each a good trailing walker gyp (g.nt.) was trailing each then came treed on the SAME trees while we were trying to get where we could recast her back to the other one still trailing. it really was incredible.

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Registered: Jan 2009
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 2814

Speck was bred to Little Joe females a lot. Some of his pups out of that cross would have to have a nose. Litte Joe was single registered. I have no problems with him. He was an open trailer and had one of the coldest noses ever.

My problems with Speck have to do with the English Breed Standards and the UKC rules. PKC doesn't have the silent trailing rules and I don't know it for a fact, but, I doubt if the PKC English breed standards call for an open trailer.

My Mt Curs are extremely smart and very sneaky when it comes to treeing coon. But, I won't be crossing them with my English.

Again, almost all of the Sailor bred Walkers I ever hunted with or knew about had extra cold noses and were wide open. Maybe a bird dog (or more likely, a Dalmation) got to the judge's female that he didn't know about. LOL.

Who knows and thirty years later, who cares? Apparently, he was not good enough for the Walker female owners when he was a Walker..

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Dave Haugh

LAKELAND KENNELS
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English Coonhounds
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Gr Ch Lakeland's Phoebe
PKC Sq Ch Lakeland's Mini Mouse
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Mt Curs
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Ch SqCh Lakeland's Lucy
SqCh Lakeland's Goldie
SqCh Lakeland's Kate
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Registered: Sep 2003
Location:
Posts: 3791

DAVE,DAVE,DAVE................YOU ARE MEASURING A DOG THAT HAS BEEN GONE FOR THIRTY YEARS BY TODAYS BREED STANDARDS....CATCH UP....AS FOR WHY DIDNT THE WALKER PEOPLE BREED TO HIM, I DONT THINK THEY GOT THE CHANCE.....

Last edited by smokin-1-mo on 05-02-2010 at 04:37 AM

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Registered: Apr 2006
Location:
Posts: 6548

quote:

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Originally posted by blk andtanman86
we was discussing hardtime speck and we couldnt rember his walker name

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Registered: Jan 2009
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 2814

That is an interesting point. Of course, 30 years ago, the rules were probably different. Still, if he was good enough and a Grand Nite Champion Walker, you would think someone would have bred some Walker females to him.

Smokie, there are still still trailing English being hunted in the hunts and studded today. You don't know anyone doing that do you? LOL.

My point again is the rules and standards. Why have them if they are worthless? Speck didn't meet the standards and the rules.

It is a well known fact that you can cross a hard hunting competition pointer with a hound out of stay put tree stock and get competition hunt winners. It has been done a lot, mostly under the table, but some are honest about it.

Who wants half bird dog stock regardless of how many hunts they win?

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Dave Haugh

LAKELAND KENNELS
____________________________
English Coonhounds
____________________________
Gr Ch Lakeland's Phoebe
PKC Sq Ch Lakeland's Mini Mouse
____________________________
Mt Curs
____________________________
Ch SqCh Lakeland's Lucy
SqCh Lakeland's Goldie
SqCh Lakeland's Kate
____________________________
Beagles
____________________________
Dual GrCh Blank's Midnight
GrCh HBCh Lakeland's Cricket II

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