Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

No, you absolutely positively can not minus the dog tree points for the coon caught. The points are deleted immediately when you see he has one caught. You can't take back the fact that the dog caught the coon on the ground, and the rules are clear on that, no tree points for coon caught on the ground. You can't say on one hand you seen it so the dog is minused for being off tree, but you didn't see it good enough to delete points for the caught coon. You can't take back the fact that you seen the dog catch a coon. Now if you didn't see it and just seen the dog coming back in to the tree then yes, tree points would be minused for being off tree, but you seen the dog with the caught coon, and you have to delete those tree points.

There is no time kept on a caught coon (5min), because tree points don't exist for a caught coon. That allows you to run in and try to keep the dogs from killin the coon etc. Otherwise you would have to wait the 5 when the dogs caught a coon and it would be dead by the time you could go get the dogs. The reason you don't have to wait the 5 is that tree points don't exist for caught coon, you just go in and get the dogs and try to protect the coon. If they don't exist to plus, they don't exist to minus.

You don't have to handle the dog to delete the tree points, all you have to do is see the dog with the caught coon and they are gone, poof, they never existed.

There are other times that dogs are scored but not "showing" the end of the track, a hole or tile etc the scorecard plainly says only one dog has to show the hole and all the dogs in the area are eligible for scoring (in the area would be determined by the judge).

The only question is can you score the strike the same way (you could if another dog was still chewing on the coon, but in this case it's only one dog and he moved 6 feet and treed on a tree). This has never come up to my knowledge, I know you score all dogs strike in the vacinity, just like a hole, but in this case he left the coon before he could be handled, was still in the vacinity, but was treein up a tree with a stinkin possum.

The tree points are definately deleted and you do NOT have to handle the dog to delete those tree points because they never existed. I don't think UKC would allow you to score the strike the same way, but I don't know how Allen would rule on this since you can delete the tree points without handeling them.

The possum has to be minused, both ways, strike and tree unless you are saying they were in the same tree or unless there is another coon in the tree with the possum you are just out of luck.

__________________
Let's go huntin

Last edited by Rip on 02-14-2010 at 02:15 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Oct 2007
Location: missouri
Posts: 17

Great comments on an unusual situation. I think you would have to score it one way or the other not both. 100 plus for coon caught on ground or 225 minus for treeing possum. We would never allow a score of 325 plus if there had been a coon up the tree instead of a possum.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Not Yet
Location:
Posts: N/A

I would think his tree points would be deleted since they seen him with a caught coon, but until he is handled his strike is still open. When he moved over and treed the possum he lost his chance of getting his strike points plussed so they are still open. Now all they can do is score him for what he does on the possum.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Central MO
Posts: 127

This is a pretty easy answer. You minus his tree points and you step back and let the handler retree or what ever he wants to do. The reason is you can only score a situation if the dog is handled and he was not handled. Then when you got there he moved so therefor he would be minused and you would step back. Thats how I would score it, but i'm no expert.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Nov 2007
Location:
Posts: 251

Ok making this cut and dry... This is the reason so many questions on a "laid back" judging cast. Score the dogs tough and what they deserve and quit giving them opportunities! They never heard them "catch" the coon so therefore you cannot advance until the 5 is up. Ok, five is up advance into "tree." Get there and spot a dog with something dead over there. Dog not handled and leaves the scene.. His tree at that point is MINUSED reguardless what he has caught on ground(coon, possum, squirrel ect..). He did not show and was not handled on a hole, tree, coon on ground, ect. If you handled him on the dead coon then yes delete his tree and plus his strike, but if not those tree points are on the card and minused. If you walk into a tree and a dog is off it 10 feet with his nose under some leaves, are you gonna let him go back to treeing and say it was ok or minus it like it should be? Then when the dog leaves the dead varmit and makes a tree, he is to be treed back in or stationary rule applied. Bam another 225 minus to go with his 125 tree minus. 350 minus. Pretty much done for the night. Pack your bags and go home and try it another night. Here from the rules....

17. GENERAL INFORMATION:
Dogs at tree must be leashed.

4. POINTS WILL BE MINUS:
(c) When dog has been declared treed and dogleaves tree. (If he goes on the trail just his tree pointswill be minus). If dog returns to tree within the five minutes he will receive the next available position on tree, unless all dogs have been declared treed.

3. POINTS WILL BE PLUS:
(b) When dog is declared struck and treed and coon is seen other than in tree, dog declared treed to receive strike and tree points. Dogs not declared treed, strike points only. If dog catches coon, strike points only.

I put number 3 on here cause I knew you wanted it.. But number 3 is irrelavant because as per rule 17 the dog was NOT handled. Therefore, if your not plussing his strike for coon caught on ground(because he was not handled), then your def. not deleting his tree. He was off the tree so minus. Goes back to tree. Score it accordingly. Minus both ways or scratched. Tough luck on this night. 350 minus on my card.

Maybe I'm not as lineant as some judges, but I give the dogs the score they deserve by their actions. MINE INCLUDED!

__________________
Gene Raines
931-319-0588
Raines' RockyTop Kennels
Home of:

PKC Silver Champion $5000+ Won; (Never in a UKC hunt) GR CH 'PR' Raines' Trusty II AKA "Thunder" (Trusty X Ox Female(Callie))

Gone But Never Forgotten: PKC Silver Champion($5444 won); UKC GR. Nt. Ch. 'PR' Raines' Rockytop Kansas TRUSTY (3 Generation All Grand)
----

Last edited by Gene Raines on 02-14-2010 at 09:51 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Central MO
Posts: 127

Exactly Gene that was what I was trying to say. There is no other way of doing it. Pretty simple.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

Gene, sorry but you're wrong on this one.

The tree points don't exist because they are gone as soon as the cast sees the dog has a coon caught. End of story. NO TREE POINTS CAN BE SCORED ON A CAUGHT COON PLUS OR MINUS. You can not undo the fact that the cast saw the dog with a coon in it's mouth. It didn't come in later, they didn't find out later, they saw him with the coon in his mouth. It wasn't "something dead way over there" it was presented as the coon plainly saw him chewing on a COON that was layin at the dogs feet. The instant they saw him his tree points are deleted.

There is no "tree time" no "shinetime", no any kind of time on a caught coon. As soon as the coon is caught the cast is to go directly to the dogs and catch them to protect the coon, and as soon as they see a caught coon all tree points are deleted.

A caught coon is a special scoring situation.

Whether or not you handled the dog is irrelivant because the tree points DO NOT EXIST.

As for minusing him for "leaving the tree" the cast, who was there, obviously didn't think the dog was off the tree far enough to be minused or they would have done that and not went in and shined the tree. (It was 6 feet, not the 20 that some of us, myself included, thought it was). They went in to the caught coon (they were the ones 20 feet away) and the dang dog jumped up on the tree beside of him and started treein when they got there.

Now if you say you must handle the dog to give him his strike points as plus, I will go along with that, even though the dog was only 6 feet way, basically still "there", it treed a possum so you would score it's strike points on the possum and it's tree points for the possum (but you would have to back out and give him the 5 because you would need to retree him, his other tree points have already been deleted).

BUT there are no tree points to minus for the coon. They have to exist in order to be minused. It's just like the situation used to be where a dog that was shut out on a tree could do whatever the heck it wanted to and it's could come in later for free cause it's strike points didn't exist until it treed on a separate tree. It could run 15 tracks and come in to the cast but if it had been shut out you couldn't minus those strike points because the way it used to be worded they didn't exist until the dog treed on a separate tree.

UKC fixed that with a rewording so that now the dog is responisible for it's strike UNLESS it trees on the same tree, but that was a big deal for a while, a big loophole.

This is the same thing here, NO TREE POINTS EXIST TO BE SCORED ON THE CAUGHT COON, NEITHER PLUS OR MINUS, NO TREE POINTS ON CAUGHT COON ARE ALLOWED PERIOD.

I am nowhere near a "soft" judge, I judge them for what the rules actually say and I judge them to the LETTER of the rule for good or bad. The caught coon is a loophole that the dog gets his tree points deleted for as soon as you see him with a coon in his mouth.

On another note, speaking of adding things, nothing in the rules says a dog can't put it's nose on the ground either, just like there is no 'under the canopy of the tree' rule either but lots of folks try to claim them both LOL. There's a difference in a dog millin and a dog makin sure it goes back to the same tree it was on when it comes to meet the cast. A good judge knows the difference and minuses the miller and lets the one going back to the tree alone.

Yes if the dog had a coon caught 30 yards away and they never seen it was a coon and it came in then it would be minused, but as it is they can't take back the fact that they all seen him chewin on the coon, meaning his tree points are deleted on that coon, and he has to be retreed on the possum.

__________________
Let's go huntin

Last edited by Rip on 02-14-2010 at 11:25 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2006
Location:
Posts: 6548

there is no strike or tree point dwn for the possum either.
scratch him and move.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

In a NtCh cast you would, but you can't scratch a registered dog for off game, they get minused.

__________________
Let's go huntin

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2006
Location:
Posts: 6548

he has to strike back in if you have + the coon.
i can take everything you have said he has to be
minused for the possum i am up the dog is still 125-
total you can stick a fork in him.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2006
Location: Springfield, Ga.
Posts: 4252

btt

__________________
Robert " Rock" Johnson

Johnson Creek Kennels
home of:
UKC Grand Nite Champion "PR" Yadkin River Addkis. Deceased 12/11/2016 RIP

2009/2010/2011/2012 AKC GA. State Leader and Supreme Grand Nite Champion Yadkin River Addkis

2010 ACHA Georgia State Champion Grand Nite Champion Yadkin River Addkis

PKC Champion Yadkin River Addkis

Bright Eye Lights


Treeing Walkers

912-663-5287 cell (perfered)

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Oct 2009
Location:
Posts: 1444

What happens if youre dog has been declared treed in a hole and as soon as you get 20 feet away you plainly see it's in the hole but it takes off?

You minus it! Same as if you declare youre dog treed and as soon as you go to grab it it takes off. It's minused either way. Once a dog is "DECLARED TREED" it MUST be handled on something. Hole,tree,tile,fence,log,pole

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Oct 2009
Location:
Posts: 1444

quote:

---

Originally posted by wishiwashunting
How would you score this? Dog trees, coyotes start moving toward him, he's not treeing as hard, but the 2 min. never gets him. When we get to the tree he's chewing on something on the ground next to a log. About 20 feet from him he jumps on tree about 6" in diameter 15' tall maybe 6' from log. At the log is a dead coon just killed, obviously by him, but up tree is a possum. Would you plus the score because he showed me the coon, however a question was brought because of the possum. Why can't it just be easy?

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: May 2009
Location: Tonkawa Oklahoma
Posts: 5586

Looks like to me the dog was struck in and when you got close enough to handle him he was on a possoum tree. The coon wouldn't matter becouse he wasn't handled there.
So I would had thought it would had been strike points minus and tree points minus. Coon just didn't count at all. Or just scratched for off game in ntch cast.

__________________
UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL
Grady Jarvis
808 N. Main St.
Tonkawa Okla. 74653
580-628-0507
CH 'PR' Grady's Dark Woods Waylon -Bluetic

NITECH 'PR' Grady's Insane Tinker Bell (Tink) - Treeing walker --Okla. State Hunt open redg. winner

'PR' Grady's Barley - Treeing Walker

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Sep 2007
Location: ackerman,ms
Posts: 2229

my point is you treed him and you got him off a tree who is to say the possum was not what he was treeing to start with and got off and found the coon and then when he seen you walking up got back on tree

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Northwest Arkansas
Posts: 924

Interesting conversation. I still would like to hear what UKC has to say. about this one. This did happen to a friend in a buddy hunt and I was curious how everybody would score it. Thanks for your input.

__________________
Keep looking up!
Doug

Home of the Roamin Kennels
PR' Lawyers Roamin Locktight Lucky (Plott)
PR' Lawyer's Atchafalaya Queen (Bluetick) RIP
PR' Lawyer's Roamin Cazadora "Cassie" (Walker) RIP

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged