Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Sylva, North Carolina (the far Western Tip of the State)
Posts: 10272

quote:

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Originally posted by cpeters30705
I just feel sorry for the folks that won. If they read this you ppl make them feel like losers. I bet they left AO thinking they was a winner. This post sure make them all feel like they aint worthy. I personally saw alot a folks in them win pictures that I aint never seen before and I seen some kids too. Looks to me like politics didnt play a role and some of you is tore up about that. Looks to me like you ought to be praising them kids too instead of crying over spilt milk. But what do I no.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: ALABAMA
Posts: 5183

quote:

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Originally posted by Cynthia
because they can not carry themselves thru the woods and will knock trees down and tear up corn fields is a little disheartening.

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Last edited by Buckshot on 09-08-2009 at 12:01 AM

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Registered: Nov 2008
Location: gerry, ny
Posts: 309

Here is my opinion on this "so-called bench/conformation shows"
Just in people's minds, no one will ever be happy with a "one man's or more opinion on the breed standards. Everyone interprets the breed standards differently. Everyone has a different version on what a "coonhound" should like and what the conformation should be.
In this, since everyone has different opinions, no one will ever will be happy.
And how the "judges" judges and how they want to see the dogs, which in the rules it states that "The judge is in charge of the ring, and his decision is final" I take that as the judge has the right to do whatever format he or she pleases as in how he or she wants to see the dogs go.
Again of course no one will ever be happy...
But again just our opinion, in case like this, we should all pay attention on how the President and Vice President of UKC interpets the breed standards and how a "Coonhound" looks and moves..
I personally agree with their picks..They both should come to one of our "little shows" .. They would like what our "little shows" have to offer
Lori and Mike
814-665-9399

CONGRADULATIONS TO ALL THE WINNERS, I AM HOPING THAT YOU ARE ENJOYING YOUR SUCCESSES, DONT LOOK AT ALL THE NEGATIVES ON THIS BOARD.. JUST REMEMBER THAT.. HAVE FUN AND ENJOY THOSE MOMENTS!!!!!!

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Grch 'PR' River Ridge Coo Coo Ca-Choo
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Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Western N.Y.
Posts: 3995

Hi Laura, yeah i like pretty as much as the next guy. Dogs Horses and women.LOL. Guess i have just never seen it make a difference in how they performed.

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Registered: Jan 2008
Location: Virginia
Posts: 47

A nice gait is sufficient enough to see how a dog travels. However I will do as any other handler whatever the judge asks me to do. I saw some rather unique decisions through the day. But as always until there is one complete set of standards of how things are to be conducted, people will do as they wish. I saw all the opinions that were voiced. Some I agree with and some I don't. But it does seem that there was a lot more emphasis placed on gait at times when the performance just wasn't there on the bench. I appreciate that the judges are very knowledgable about the structures of the dogs, but then again what about the standards that were written in the UKC Rule book. As for me I do the best with my dog and thats all I can do.

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Registered: Nov 2008
Location: gerry, ny
Posts: 309

Unstable Kennel
I really liked your plott male, beautiful I thought.. Congrads on your win.. That is surely a great looking hound.. Did you get him from Scott hogan? I wonder if they have a female like him, LOL
I am just getting into plotts and I really like the looks of Romeo..

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 4502

quote:

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Originally posted by Buckshot
And you have seen this personally and been in the woods long enough to know how hounds hold up hunting??????????????

Reason I ask, I thought you were a bench shower.

I have owned some large hounds and I have never seen all that.

I figured there would be threads like this after AO as I posted weeks ago with who the judges were, they would not get caught up in the political bench show clique world............Glad to see they didn't.

---

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Registered: Mar 2007
Location: SoCal
Posts: 341

quote:

---

Originally posted by TamarackKennels
Unstable Kennel
I really liked your plott male, beautiful I thought.. Congrads on your win.. That is surely a great looking hound.. Did you get him from Scott hogan? I wonder if they have a female like him, LOL
I am just getting into plotts and I really like the looks of Romeo..

---

agreed, he was my pick for the class! congrats again! (i was the girl waiting outside the pairs ring with you on thurs with my two gigantic idiots )

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Registered: May 2004
Location: northeast
Posts: 1278

AMEN!!!!! To you Natalie,H.L.,and Bolt Action.
I do not and will not select a winner with bias toward any breed or handler.Never have and never will.
I do not like the statement"Based on a judges opinion the dog selected best conformed to a particular breed standard."
because it almost never is an accurate statement.If it was then we would not see a flat sway back Black and Tan win in one class and a strong slightly arched back one win in another class.Go read your standards."A VERY IMPORTANT PART OF THE BREED"Why do the flat backed ones continue to win?
Or the dogs with no depth in their chest or too straight in the shoulders.
Another thing that makes me sick to watch is when these dogs with straight stifles win year after year.This seems to be one of the most overlooked faults.One year at the Oaks almost every dog was straight in the stifle and I mean it was extremely obvious.
There is one particular breeder that wins consistantly with straight stifle dogs and won the world .How can this happen?IT SHOULD NOT.
Like Connie said about the gait when you are standing there and it is staring you in the face how can you ignore the obvious.
I saw a judge one time make a statement about his selection how straight the dogs legs were in the front and back .It was toed out so badly in the front ,I seen it for myself.Sickening.

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Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Swainsboro, Ga
Posts: 901

Being so new to this sport and being our first year attending AO I guess I am not educated enough to comment on this thread. However, my daughter had 3 registered dogs this year and all 3 of them won their class and one of them won her breed. So I guess I am happy with the choices that were made. She got a new dog after we got there and had to enlist a friend *Autumn Beland* to handle one of the dogs for her. I can't tell you how happy she was to own 2 of the 3 dogs showing for Breed. Did the judge make the right choices - well I don't know - but as a proud mom I was happy with the choices he did make.

We have alot to learn and I will be the first to admit that even sometimes I was scratching my head. But overall we had a great time, finally got to meet alot of our internet friends and Taylor was involved in more than her fair share of winning at her very first AO! I can only hope that she will do as well in years to come.

Priscilla

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Registered: Nov 2008
Location: gerry, ny
Posts: 309

Priscilla
Tell your daughter to enjoy those moments and have fun.
Met her briefly at english days and she is a classy girl.. very polite and friendly. Loves to talk..


Everyone else,
Like I said in my post, No one is ever going to be happy with any judge's decision.. Just remember one person's opinion on what they think what a coonhound should look like and be like..
I have learned that over the couple of years.. I have apologize for my crudeness and came to realize everyone is entitled to their opinions..
I really like comp hunting alot better than showing.. It is like doing timed events in horses....
Benching is like your halter classes... Each judge will have a different opinion on what the horses should look like..

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REMEMBER THIS IS MY OPINION!!!! No names were mention. If I offended someone then you must have a guilty conscience.

814-964-9399

RIP
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PLOTTS:

Grch 'PR' River Ridge Coo Coo Ca-Choo
Ch'PR' Tamarack's Redwood Secret
Ch'PR' Tamarack's A Shot In The Dark
'PR' Tamarack's DarkSide Ofthe Moon
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Registered: May 2004
Location: northeast
Posts: 1278

Good News.Taylors dogs are really nice.Not my breed of choice but if i owned a walker or redbone I would want them to look like the Rags to Riches pup or the Red female Storm.Both outstanding looking in the pictures posted.

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IT SEEMS THAT EVERYTIME A BREED OR LINE OF DOGS GET POPULAR IT EVENTUALLY LEADS TO ITS RUINATION BY UNINFORMED PEOPLE BREEDING WITHOUT DOING THEIR RESEARCH FIRST.

Gone but never forgotten:
NtChGrCh Dryfork Punkin
NtChGrCh Dryfork Little Blue Baby Doll
2009 Pa Show Dog Of The Year
GrCh Dryfork Little Black Book
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Gone too soon RIP my baby girl
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Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Swainsboro, Ga
Posts: 901

Thanks for the compliments on Taylor and her dogs! It makes us feel so good when others comment on her like that. As parents we have our hands full raising kids in today's society - glad to hear she is representing herself well. We think she is growing into a special young lady.

I have gone through lots of dogs trying to find the right one for her. I hope I have found it with the Rags to Riches pup. The redbone is actually her brothers dog - given to him by Andi Elburn - but he is only 8 and Taylor can't keep her hands off of her. LOL!

Now if I can just find her a coondog - we'll be set!! Thanks again for the great compliments on her.

Priscilla

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Registered: Jan 2007
Location:
Posts: 157

I think what most are scratching their heads about is that if you look back at the dogs that were showing back when the show use to be in the dog supply arena, there was a different type of hound compared to most today. Take a look back at the dogs in the late 80's 90's and early 00's. Most dogs that were showed then were 9, 10, 11, 12 etc and showing in the Grand class and could still compete with their younger competition and offspring. Some of the dogs today are a result of people breeding to certain dogs becuase this one won that etc. Thus we are loosing focus and breeding for the win and loosing the traits of our foundation dogs thus hurting our breeds. The breed standards have not changed that much through the years. It use to be nothing to find the dog showing hard on the bench during the day and then find them going just as hard in the woods that night. There are a lot of foundation breeders out there that have worked hard to keep the hound instanct and look in their dogs that could be found in the past generation of dogs. The gait of the dog is important, but most have been through the old school like at most local smaller shows with the feeling of walking in and pretty much walking your dog with the idea of here is my dog, which doesn't work any more at the big shows Yes a handler can hide faults on the bench, and a dog can cross it's back legs on the ground and we say that this is now good conformation when in years back it wasn't what is wrong? Dogs 6-7 years ago had good rears, and are still going strong and still found in the ring, but these new generation of dogs have no rears and by the time they reach 9 10 etc they wont be able to show against the young dogs for they can't hold up.
*
GENETICS PLAY A BIG ROLE IN THE DOG
*
If we breed for win we are loosing the qualities that others have to offer the breed as a whole. And not looking at the genetic potential that we could use
*
Just because a dog has an all grand pedigree doesn't mean it will be a coon dog, same for conformation a dog with a world show title may not produce all world show dogs.

*
Change is hard for everyone, and it is epecially hard when you go back to what the judges and others desired of the hound before compared to what is being desired now, and what UKC was started upon before we had all breed shows to now. We are proud of our hounds, that they are a hound and can tree a coon, get scratched up and not have to worry about being frowned upon for having a dog on the BENCH that has scars, where in the other fancy rings most would say what did you do to that dog?
*
In order to improve our breeds we must think about the standard set before us, and say what would our foundation breeders say if they could look and our dogs now as no dog is perfect but are we actually improving or just sliding by?

*
It is nice to see young people starting up, thus we need to let them see the offspring that are positive additions to the breeds so that they continue as breeders and make a good influence upon the breeds, not only showing but hunting.
*

JUST MY OPINION

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Registered: Feb 2006
Location: BRIGHTON, TENNESSEE 30 miles north of Memphis
Posts: 2169

First off...

CONGRATULATIONS TO ALL OF THE WINNERS!!

and...

A BIG THANKS for all involved in putting on this event...


I did think it was a long process. BUT, were there not more entries? I mean, I really don't know the answer to that. I am not trying to sound like a smart ellic. I would have just thought that for this big aniversary event, that the entry numbers would have been way up. So, I would have already thought ahead of time that this would be a long and drawn out process, no matter how the format for the show was set up. I have been in this only three years, and EVERY year someone complains about how it was set up and run and how bad the judging was..So this seems to be nothing new year after year. Just saying that I don't think they will EVER be able to make EVERYONE happy, with how much or little effort is put into the planning.

I do agree with some of what most have commented on the good and the bad. I do remember thinking, while watching a couple of the older generation showing in the ground type classes....."Dang, they look misserable!" I can surely see where folks that may have even slight health problems, would have been uncomfortable with the format if they were not prepaired. It was obvious in some that they were uncomfortable. I felt bad for some of them.

Sabrina Smith
Critter Creek Redbones
Brighton, Tennessee

Last edited by s/s on 09-08-2009 at 11:30 PM

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Registered: Jan 2007
Location:
Posts: 241

All the winners did great! Megan with Wonder Boy was really on her game & they looked AWESOME!! However, I agree with Connie on this one.
While I truly believe that all hounds should be gaited, and what they do on the ground is equally as important as what they do on the bench, I thought that this year, it was over-kill. It was hard on the handlers and the dogs!
Conformation is important in any breed, especially working dogs, but , as has already been stated in this thread, we are not attending UKC COONHOUND EVENTS because we want our shows conducted like Westminster. We LIKE it that our format is different. We LIKE showing our hounds on the bench. We could all show Poodles or any of the other breeds at AKC or UKC Confirmation events if that was what we were interested in.
They came out with using 2 rings last year, which allowed most people hunting to participate and/or watch the shows as they progressed. The classes drug on so long this year, it defeated the whole purpose of showing in 2 rings!
Change is not always bad, but I wonder if the powers that be at UKC, knowledgeable as they are in regard to dogs, are forgetting what the bench shows mean to coonhunters. They are a format to show off a dog you are proud of, and a way to spend time as a family where those that don't or can't hunt in the hunts can still participate.
I personally don't come to a bench show to race. I want to talk dogs, see old friends, learn a few things and show my dog.
As far as Thursday's shows went, why didn't they go to 2 rings when they realized how many dogs were entered? We had to withdraw our Duels entry to go hunt, so, we missed out on one of the most important classes!Ugh!
I did however think the Raper Center looked great & the staff at UKC did a great job getting everyone through there.

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Registered: Aug 2008
Location: BRANT Mich. (989)717-6685
Posts: 374

Iam a Benchshow judge & master of HOUNDS and I beleave to much is put on the looks of a HOUND!! I can tell you I have wrote more win slips, for the hunt. To more flat footed short eared pinheaded dogs then I have others !! but they have BREED standerds for a reason. and that is for the shows (BENCH SHOWS) I would like to thank the judges for their opion. Nomatter who did it someone would have something to **** about. THANKYOU UKC

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 4502

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike Parish
Iam a Benchshow judge & master of HOUNDS and I beleave to much is put on the looks of a HOUND!! I can tell you I have wrote more win slips, for the hunt. To more flat footed short eared pinheaded dogs then I have others !! but they have BREED standerds for a reason. and that is for the shows (BENCH SHOWS) I would like to thank the judges for their opion. Nomatter who did it someone would have something to **** about. THANKYOU UKC

---

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RIP Southern Flame Too Hot to Trot (Bonnie) 3/27/07 - 4/20/15

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Registered: Oct 2005
Location: Astoria, Illinois
Posts: 73

aimen 2 sound off kennels and Cynthia

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Registered: Jul 2008
Location:
Posts: 118

I have shown a couple years now at AO to have fun, support AO and the UKC Coonhound program. My show Ch. hunting hound (soon to be Nt Ch.) has never won at AO, but I like to show him there anyway!

This year, though, a conversation IN the ring during our puppy class made me rather sad.

My pup (2, actually, who are actually nicely trained since 12 weeks of age when I got them) was rather nervous about the slippery floors, loud speakers and big echoey building so did not gait as well as she can (on and off again) and stacked nice but was not in the "look at me" mode, but nothing a skilled judge cannot see right through.

While I did not know handlers could have conversation with the judge DURING the class, a rather 'famous handler' in my class (and who won it with a rather weedy greyhound, roach-backed, sickle tailed dog) was conversing to the judge that my pup should not even have BEEN in the class and that I should have "at least had the deceny to TRAIN the pup." The judge (who is also UKC pres) agreed.

I came to UKC because it supports 'fun and family' etc.

I did not expect to be considered an embarassment to AO or lowering the quality of the show by entering a pup who could not be perfect when she got overwhelmed.

Someone else outside the ring also said my pups would 'do better in AKC because they LOOK like coonhounds."

Say what?

My suggestion would be, I suppose, that if us peons just having fun with our hounds and wanting to show our good moving, structurally sound (and PRETTY) dogs, but whose pups might not be perfectly behaved in the ring (or look like coonhounds instead of greyhounds) are somehow dissing AO, that AO should require certain pre-qualifying shows that will not place puppies who may act like puppies at some point in the show.

I still think those comments are very sad, and I certainly do not have the political clout as this famour handler to be joshing with the judge in middle of the class, but jeesh!

At least reserve conversing with the judge AFTER the judging is complete?

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Registered: Nov 2008
Location: gerry, ny
Posts: 309

Wildhounds
Great job on holding your pup together as much as you could. It takes alot to do that.. I know it very well..Even when you do all your homework on training the dog. people just make fun of no matter what just to get you rallied..
I went to AO twice and had balls of fun. Believe me, people even the judges would make fun of my "Hunting Dogs" too..
Well, I say us peons should stick together and show more often, forget the comments, Let's just have some fun.. Of course, I do have just mutts anyway..
In this benching/shows, no one will ever be happy with the choices that the judge makes.. Everyone has a different opinion of what the coonhound breeds should look like and move.

__________________
REMEMBER THIS IS MY OPINION!!!! No names were mention. If I offended someone then you must have a guilty conscience.

814-964-9399

RIP
GRNTCH CH 'PR' Cassandras Midnight Jenny

PLOTTS:

Grch 'PR' River Ridge Coo Coo Ca-Choo
Ch'PR' Tamarack's Redwood Secret
Ch'PR' Tamarack's A Shot In The Dark
'PR' Tamarack's DarkSide Ofthe Moon
Ch 'PR' River Ridge Ruby Tuesday

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Registered: Nov 2008
Location: gerry, ny
Posts: 309

ok the smartask side of me is coming out...
Wildhounds,
I do know what you mean about feeling inferior at the bigger events.. I work my dogs hard on the bench and even on the ground.. then some "big" handler comes along and points and laughs and gives mean indirect looks at me like I do not belong there because I am not in the so called "Family"..
Well guess what, money is just as green as theirs.. and I am still going to go out there with my mutts and show like they are the best in the world.. How about that?

__________________
REMEMBER THIS IS MY OPINION!!!! No names were mention. If I offended someone then you must have a guilty conscience.

814-964-9399

RIP
GRNTCH CH 'PR' Cassandras Midnight Jenny

PLOTTS:

Grch 'PR' River Ridge Coo Coo Ca-Choo
Ch'PR' Tamarack's Redwood Secret
Ch'PR' Tamarack's A Shot In The Dark
'PR' Tamarack's DarkSide Ofthe Moon
Ch 'PR' River Ridge Ruby Tuesday

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Registered: Oct 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 3709

I am so sorry that happened to you.
I have never been to Oaks. Wish I could have this year! Sounds like it was very nice!
The only reason I am posting this is to tell you that from what I have seen in the past, there are alot of people that show that don't care who they step on to get the "big one" and thier picture in "the book". On the other hand, there are those that actually show dogs they have raised from pups or bred themselves to show just how dedicated THEY have been to the sport they love.

A very good friend of mine told me not two weeks ago that he wouldn't help me with an idea I have on breeding my female "IF I DIDN"T GET THICKER SKIN AND IGNORE THE THINGS SAID AROUND ME." Easier said then done, but he is 100% right.

Have fun with your pup. Heck, I have a 3 year old female that looks wonderful! She just hates a croud and new surroundings!

__________________
BROKEN ROAD KENNEL
Breeding for the future of the Treeing Walker
"God bless the Broken Road"
~A man is only as good as his word~

Proud home to;

'PR' Kentucky River Fly Again (Kentucky River Rowdy frozen semen)
ACHA CHT x3 Broken Roads Little Texas (Kentucky River Rowdy x Houses Lipper's Hope)
CH Broken Roads Southern Stylish Boom (Kentucky River Rowdy x Houses Lipper's Hope)
Broken Road's Rowdy Lil Miss (Kentucky River Rowdy x Houses Lipper's Hope)
Broken Road's Meabie I will (Lipper's Rooster x Missy)
Broken Roads IMA Boomer2 (UKC NATL GRCH GRNTCH Honest Abe x Broken Roads Southern Stylish Boom
~~~~~Watch out!~~~~~
They just might make an IMPACT!

and the girls...Punkin and Tater!

Gone by never forgotten ~ Fly high my beautiful angels
~ GRCH GNTCH PKC SC Toucan Sam
~CH Toucan's Ugly Betty
~ CCH CH Southforks September Rain
~ Martin's Daisy JJ (what a beautiful litter you left behind)
~ Luke, the lab who brought us so many doves and ducks over the years
~ UKC GRCH,ACHA CH 2014 LWCH 2014 2 x's ACHA YOUTH WCH AKC CH AKC CH 'PR' Kentucky River Mundar ~ (Kentucky River Rowdy frozen semen) DNA Profiled ~ Fly high, old friend.

"The WILL of God will never take you where the GRACE of God can not protect you!"

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Registered: Nov 2008
Location: gerry, ny
Posts: 309

Cleo
Let me tell you something, alot of people already know how I use to be.. but I have come up with a new attitude on this showing..
What I used to be, hmmm I would complain and cry on this board all the time about the injustice of showing but really it was my attitude that sucked. I kept looking at all the negatives it was this and that blah blah blah..
So I took a step back and thought about a new attitude..
Who cares on what is said about me and or my mutts, I know what they are and by good, they are just as good or better than what is out there.. heck my money is just as green as theirs and I am going to show them off.. How about that?
Ignore what is said and just go and have fun..If I can do it, you can too!!
By the way what I show I also hunt!!!
Like O.W. Hill said once, and was his quote,... I show my hunting dogs and I hunt my show dogs.

__________________
REMEMBER THIS IS MY OPINION!!!! No names were mention. If I offended someone then you must have a guilty conscience.

814-964-9399

RIP
GRNTCH CH 'PR' Cassandras Midnight Jenny

PLOTTS:

Grch 'PR' River Ridge Coo Coo Ca-Choo
Ch'PR' Tamarack's Redwood Secret
Ch'PR' Tamarack's A Shot In The Dark
'PR' Tamarack's DarkSide Ofthe Moon
Ch 'PR' River Ridge Ruby Tuesday

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Registered: Oct 2005
Location: SC
Posts: 3709

AND YOU KNOW WHAT?

THATS THE WAY IT SHOULD BE.

NO ONE ELSE HAS TO FEED THEM BUT US!

SAFE HUNTING AND BEST OF LUCK TO EVERYONE OUT THERE! MAYBE ONE DAY WE WILL ALL BE "WINNERS" IN THE BIG SHOW. BUT UNTIL THEN, I WILL CONTINUE PLUGGING ALONG WITH MY BAND OF FRIENDS THAT LOVE ME FOR WHO I AM, NOT WHAT THEY THINK I SHOULD BE.

__________________
BROKEN ROAD KENNEL
Breeding for the future of the Treeing Walker
"God bless the Broken Road"
~A man is only as good as his word~

Proud home to;

'PR' Kentucky River Fly Again (Kentucky River Rowdy frozen semen)
ACHA CHT x3 Broken Roads Little Texas (Kentucky River Rowdy x Houses Lipper's Hope)
CH Broken Roads Southern Stylish Boom (Kentucky River Rowdy x Houses Lipper's Hope)
Broken Road's Rowdy Lil Miss (Kentucky River Rowdy x Houses Lipper's Hope)
Broken Road's Meabie I will (Lipper's Rooster x Missy)
Broken Roads IMA Boomer2 (UKC NATL GRCH GRNTCH Honest Abe x Broken Roads Southern Stylish Boom
~~~~~Watch out!~~~~~
They just might make an IMPACT!

and the girls...Punkin and Tater!

Gone by never forgotten ~ Fly high my beautiful angels
~ GRCH GNTCH PKC SC Toucan Sam
~CH Toucan's Ugly Betty
~ CCH CH Southforks September Rain
~ Martin's Daisy JJ (what a beautiful litter you left behind)
~ Luke, the lab who brought us so many doves and ducks over the years
~ UKC GRCH,ACHA CH 2014 LWCH 2014 2 x's ACHA YOUTH WCH AKC CH AKC CH 'PR' Kentucky River Mundar ~ (Kentucky River Rowdy frozen semen) DNA Profiled ~ Fly high, old friend.

"The WILL of God will never take you where the GRACE of God can not protect you!"

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