Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Fl.
Posts: 1280

Pappy your good and sure got a chuckle out of me when you wrote. You are right about one of the constitutions being promoting the Breed but nothing is written about promoting Crossbreeds.
Pappy your post was just fine and I really did understand what you were saying. As you know I had a litter of red/walkers commonly called walkinbones here. Two do meet the color standards of the redbone breed with just a small amount of white on thier chest--but I have no intention of ever single registering one in UKC as anything. To me that are what they are and that is cross bred like you said. One registery allows me to hunt them and see if they can compete with the other dogs. Thats what I am going to do. Now 3 years down the road when they are out of the puppy programs and I have lost interest in them and if one proves it has ability it may be for sale. What the new owner does with it will be their business. But I wouldn't give this much thought as I haven't sold one in 30 years. lol

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Whitakers, NC
Posts: 171

Breed the best to the best and hope for the best. If you breed a walker to a RED dog, it's plain and simple you got a cross bred pup. No big deal if that is what you want. I don't think it is nothing wrong with it if that is what you would like to do. I myself don't feel like the RED dog has got to do that to win. There are more good Red dogs now than ever before. I do feel surely there is a little mixed blood that has been put into all the breeds through the years. Probably the RED dog less than any of the others due to such strict color standards. Probably the walker and English more so than any of the others have mixed and remixed quite a bit probably years ago but I wouldn't think it goes on as much now. I don't see a big problem with the RED dog not being able to win. I think it is more of a issue that they are just not campaigned and pushed in the hunts as much as they deserve to be. I know when going to most hunts there is maybe a handful of other RED dogs there, but that handful usually goes home packing some hardware! Take care and keep'em RED!

Go Psycho!
Donnie Frazier

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: OHIO
Posts: 962

with a cur or crossbred,well more power to you.but saying that your breeding them to better a line or breed doesnt ring true to me.i hear, if they are winning i would really sell some pups. promotion?? yes there are some that would give them a try because of something they won or a #s advantage to qualify for a world money hunt---but those wouldnt care what color or breed dog they where hunting. same as the registry encouraging it dont care as long as they get more entries and reg. money. maybe one of those (show hounds) out there happened to inherite all the right tools and is the savior of your breed.if he did would it do you any good???

Last edited by willscrk on 08-23-2003 at 09:40 AM

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Fl.
Posts: 1280

Bruce was alot more fun back when he would disagree with the heavyweights......"O for the good ol' days!!" rofl..

John you just don't know how hard it is trying to be nice---lol

All I can say is I am doing a better job crossing my walkers on red dogs than you guys did with the balck and tans. At least I don't have any white toenails to worry about. Maybe a few misplaced white hairs here and there but they are a lot easier to pull out than a toenail---lol

Now if I just could get one to win like that black walker, I would be in business.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4321

Hehee, Bruce, you're right.

At least your redbone x walker crosses sound like they meet the breed standard and could probably be registered as redbones if they were to meet all the other requirements. I would hope that if they were to be single registered, that any non standard pups they produce are culled at birth. Thats what worries me about such a close up out cross, in any breed. Some folks don't have what it takes to cull a newborn pup.

A black and tan colored dog with a white toenail, white chin, and face turning white does not meet the B&T breed standard, pure and simple. Another thing, it wasn't "me" that did any crossing between a B&T and a walker. From what I understand, that cross was an accident, not some well thought out plan to save a breed. I also had an accidental cross several years ago between a b&T female and a GrNtCh walker male. Those pups came out to be lemon spotted, just like their father.. I took care of them the way an accidental breeding is supposed to be taken care of. Just my thoughts, I can accept that others' will be different.

I guess the second part of my real estate analogy could be that the current residents get to make and enforce the rules for their community. The only problem is they do have to obey the laws that are on the books and be careful and not be too restrictive or after a few years nobody young will move in and their community will die a slow death. These young ones will go somewhere else and do what they were going to do, anyway. The old residents will die off and their community will get government housing projects built on it, and nobody will every know or care what a "perfect" community USED to be there, lol. Maybe. On the other hand, if they just let anything move in, they will have 30 year old trailer houses next to $500,000 mansions. That does nothing but create friction, either.

I wasn't really thinking of crossbreds at the time I said that, though. I was thinking of much less "cutting edge" breeding practices, like breeding hounds with superior coon treeing ability to each other, lol.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Greenleaf, WI
Posts: 839

If you send me copies of the 7 generation pedigrees from all your redbones along with $50-$100, and I get on the phone to trace your bloodlines and show you how much off-colored blood is in your kennel, like I bet there is- can I call you a hypocrite? The way I see it, you got your explanation of the evolution of the red-dog completely backward.

I would argue that only in the past 30 years have breeders been holding themselves to this close-minded practice of breeding to the confines of a strict breed color standard.

Just take for instance IF the following dogs had off-color blood within 3 generations:

1. Timber CHopper
2. Ace or Woodpecker
3. Fireball

Do you figure then we'd all be hunting cross-bred hounds or just plain old redbones?

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Greenleaf, WI
Posts: 839

You boys like mayo or mustard?

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Good conversation on this topic. Bruce, I continue to find myself nodding my head when I read your stuff.

Donnie Frazier, that was a good reply too I thought.

And when in the world did John D. get his realtors liscense???

Last edited by on 08-23-2003 at 07:11 PM

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: cambridge,ohio
Posts: 4143

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug Johnson
Bruce, I agree 100% with the walkers of days past. Prime example is Johnson's Banjo, part bird dog. Tenn Lead, supposedly the founding dog of the walker breed was a stolen black & tan. Some of House's Lipper offspring look more like collies or shepards than walkers. And where did the blue eyes and dew claws come from. Believe me, I'm not foolish enough to think that the walkers are a pure breed, but I don't think that crossbreeding is a wide spead practice among dedicated walker breeders of today.
As far as win statistics and color restrictions, I see your point and agree with this also.
If UKC would allow a truthful 3 generation pedigree on these color restricted breeds (and that might already be the policy as some have pointed out) I see no problem with crossbreeding.
If you don't truthfully know whats in your breeding pen, how can you make educated breeding decisions?

On the other hand, I would truly hate to see the watering down of these 6 breeds of coonhounds to the point that they are just one generic breed of dog, just for sake of winning a hunt.

---

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