Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Connersville, In.
Posts: 768

I probably shouldn't be sticking my nose in here but I am going to say it anyway. My whole theory to this problem is do away with the BENCHES and call it a dog show. Too many problems are hidden after a handler gets that dog on the bench, and a non schooled judge never caught it on the ground. Now that is just my OPINION !!!

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Registered: Jul 2006
Location: ky. U.S.A.
Posts: 642

tree dogs i toadly agree its hard to catch all the faults on the ground too your looking and thinking which is the best and hope that dog looks good on the bench also my opion is take the 3 or 4 top picks and take then off the bench lead them around the bench and set them up faceing the other way one at a time as the judge watches the dog be ste up then you can see those faults come out im a judge and if i think tfere is something thats what i do some get mad but i want the best dog to win jmo

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Registered: Apr 2006
Location:
Posts: 6548

quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Welch
I want to know how many of you think that the Purina points shows are seriously affecting the respective number of show entries of that respective breed at our Larger Breed Days and larger Breed sectionals that are on the Purina Points show schedule? Any body have any idea to correct the current trend of Purina show dogs dominating the Breed days and Sectionals. I'm not against the Purina Show just believe that Breed Days shows are held to promote that breed and lately this isn't the case!

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Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Swainsboro, Ga
Posts: 901

Not sure what (if anything) this proves.....but in digging around in the news archive here is what I found. I looked at English Days/Southern English Days since this question came just after SED was over.

ENGLISH DAYS

2006 - Friday BS Entries - 63
2006 - Saturday BS Entries - 69

2007 - Friday BS Entries - 43
2007 - Saturday BS Entries - 44

2008 - Friday BS Entries - 33
2008 - Saturday BS Entries - 43

SOUTHERN ENGLISH DAYS

2006 - Friday BS Entries - 26
2006 - Saturday BS Entries - 26

2007 - Friday BS Entries - 18
2007 - Saturday BS Entries - 25

2008 - Friday BS Entries - 32
2008 - Saturday BS Entries - 39

I am not taking sides - just got curious and decided to look into the numbers. Now - what do you think having seen the numbers?

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Shallow Creek Redbones
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Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Greenville,Oh
Posts: 1447

quote:

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Originally posted by Buck Houser
I hear what you are saying and there is probably some truth in it but but do you like your blueticks that way? I am not real fond of them like that. JMO though....

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Location: Greenville,Oh
Posts: 1447

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hookworm
Not sure what (if anything) this proves.....but in digging around in the news archive here is what I found. I looked at English Days/Southern English Days since this question came just after SED was over.

ENGLISH DAYS

2006 - Friday BS Entries - 63
2006 - Saturday BS Entries - 69

2007 - Friday BS Entries - 43
2007 - Saturday BS Entries - 44

2008 - Friday BS Entries - 33
2008 - Saturday BS Entries - 43

SOUTHERN ENGLISH DAYS

2006 - Friday BS Entries - 26
2006 - Saturday BS Entries - 26

2007 - Friday BS Entries - 18
2007 - Saturday BS Entries - 25

2008 - Friday BS Entries - 32
2008 - Saturday BS Entries - 39

I am not taking sides - just got curious and decided to look into the numbers. Now - what do you think having seen the numbers?

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Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Swainsboro, Ga
Posts: 901

Trying to get back to the original question.................here is some more info for ya.

2006 SOUTHERN ENGLISH DAYS - Winners - 75% English
Friday Saturday
GRCHM PLT PLT
GRCHF ENG ENG
CHM ENG BLU
CHF ENG ENG
BOSM ENG ENG
BOSF ENG ENG


2007 SOUTHERN ENGLISH DAYS - Winners - 33% ENGLISH
Friday Saturday
GRCHM ENG BLU
GRCHF TW PLT
CHM NONE ENG
CHF RED RED
BOSM B&T B&T
BOSF ENG ENG

2008 SOUTHERN ENGLISH DAYS - Winners - 25% ENGLISH
Friday Saturday
GRCHM B&T B&T
GRCHF TW TW
CHM PLT B&T
CHF ENG RED
BOSM ENG TW
BOSF ENG PLT

2009 SOUTHERN ENGLISH DAYS - Winners - 33% English
Friday Saturday
GRCHM TW TW
GRCHF TW TW
CHM ENG ENG
CHF TW PLT
BOSM ENG ENG
BOSF TW TW


2006 ENGLISH DAYS - Winners - 33% English
Friday Saturday
GRCHM RED RED
GRCHF ENG B&T
CHM TW TW
CHF ENG ENG
BOSM TW ENG
BOSF TW BLU

2007 ENGLISH DAYS - Winners - 50% English
Friday Saturday
GRCHM B&T B&T
GRCHF ENG ENG
CHM ENG TW
CHF ENG ENG
BOSM RED RED
BOSF ENG TW

2008 ENGLISH DAYS - Winners - 60% English
Friday Saturday
GRCHM PLT B&T
GRCHF TW ENG
CHM RED ENG
CHF ENG ENG
BOSM ENG ENG
BOSF ENG B&T


Now - its kinda late and I'm kinda tired so my math may not be perfect but you can get an idea. The original question never really got answered. Now maybe it can be based on actual numbers and actual breed winners taken from the UKC archive results.

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Shallow Creek Redbones
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Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Greenville,Oh
Posts: 1447

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hookworm
Trying to get back to the original question.................here is some more info for ya.

2006 SOUTHERN ENGLISH DAYS
Friday Saturday
GRCHM PLT PLT
GRCHF ENG ENG
CHM ENG BLU
CHF ENG ENG
BOSM ENG ENG
BOSF ENG ENG

2007 SOUTHERN ENGLISH DAYS
Friday Saturday
GRCHM ENG BLU
GRCHF TW PLT
CHM NONE ENG
CHF RED RED
BOSM B&T B&T
BOSF ENG ENG

2008 SOUTHERN ENGLISH DAYS
Friday Saturday
GRCHM B&T B&T
GRCHF TW TW
CHM PLT B&T
CHF ENG RED
BOSM ENG TW
BOSF ENG PLT

2009 SOUTHERN ENGLISH DAYS
Friday Saturday
GRCHM TW TW
GRCHF TW TW
CHM ENG ENG
CHF TW PLT
BOSM ENG ENG
BOSF TW TW


2006 ENGLISH DAYS
Friday Saturday
GRCHM RED RED
GRCHF ENG B&T
CHM TW TW
CHF ENG ENG
BOSM TW ENG
BOSF TW BLU

2007 ENGLISH DAYS

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Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Swainsboro, Ga
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Now that's where I draw the line.......................that was before my time! LOL!

Yes it would be interesting to see. Unfortunately the news archive does not go back that far. Maybe some of the "Ole Timers" on here can dig up their old issues of CB and post that info.

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Shallow Creek Redbones
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Home of Youth Handlers: TAYLOR & CHASE HOOKS

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: bainbridge ny
Posts: 2589

if you can't play with the big boys leave your hound on the porch.

the showring is to pick the best shown for the particular day what you pay entry money for is to get the judges opion.
like us all i would say judges also have a breed they prefer over other breeds. i would bet if the chosen judges name was kept a secret the numbers would change.
would you show uner a judge that pregers a breed other than the one your showing even if both dogs were of equal quality breed preferance would decide the winner

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My opinion would have to be that the PURINA isn't all to fault. OUR ECONOMY is a bigger factor then the word Purina. We ALL are watching how we spend our money. And if you go to enter a show and see that that a particular dogs is there and entered, that has been winning show after show... trust me folks don't enter! And the reason would be "I'm not wasting my money!!!".

So here's a thought... since the purina race has become a game for one that has an endless amount of money to pay entry fees, gas, hotel bills, fast food, and the wear and tear on a vehicle, not to mention either retired, or a job that has A LOT of vacation time to make both Friday and Saturday events... lets make the playing field a litte closer.

Create a "TRIPLE CROWN" for the bench shows and do away with the 30+ events you have to hit to even be in the top 5. Award an amount of points to a class, breed, and show winner at the 3 big events UKC holds: Winter Classic, Autumn Oaks and the World. Just like the Triple Crown of the Hunting program. Add your RQE, and maybe your repectful breed day! Then crown the winner of the Purina race!

This MIGHT bring those breed day entries back up. Level out the "financial" playing field, giving EVERYONE more of a shot to win a RACE... because right now its not a race, its who has the deepest pockets and most vacation time!

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Registered: Feb 2006
Location: Flat Rock, NC
Posts: 1842

Why is this an issue with the Show Dogs?????

All breeds are in the Hunt too so what is the difference.

This past weekend at Southern English as at all Breed shows there is a King and Queen of the Hunt and Show and there were special awards and prizes for the overall breed winners. But every breed is allowed to enter the hunt as with the show.

Also, before you go bad mouthing the other breeds you need to stop and realize that alot of the people that showed and won with another breed at SED's also showed an English in another class. Not everyone showed an english but a large majority did and then there are ones like myself who did not show an English ( I showed my B&T) but I am a member of and support the Southern English Assoc and have been a member for 5 years and there are 3 english dogs in our kennels.

Please stop reading so much into this deal. Most of us that show at these Purina shows know that we are going to be showing against some of the best dogs in the country when we show up at these shows now and that is the way we like it. I would rather show with and against my friends from all over ever weekend.

IMO I just feel like there are bigger fish to fry than this in our world today.

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Lisa Beddingfield
Flat Rock Kennels Home of
Melrose Mountain Black & Tans
shanelisa@bellsouth.net


GrCh Pr Melrose Mtn Lead Me Home "Mercy"
2020 Autumn Oaks National Grand Black and Tan
2019 Autumn Oaks National Grand Black and Tan
2017 Black and Tan Days Queen of Show
2017 World Champion Black & Tan Female
2018 Ch of Ch Female Grand American
2019 Ch of Ch Female Winter Classic
2019 Georgia State Show Champion
2020 SC State Queen of Show

Ch Melrose Mtn Diamond in the Rough "Coal"
2019 NC State Best Male of Show
2019 Autumn Oaks Best Male of Show
2019 World Champion B&T Male
2020 SC State Show Champion
2020 Autumn Oaks Champion B&T Male
2020 World Ch Black and Tan Male
2020 World Show Overall Opposite Sex
2020 Purina Nationals Black and Tan Winner

UKC and AKC GrCH Melrose Mtn Hint of Jasmine
2015 Southern English Days BFOS
2017 Southern English Days Ch Female
2018 Southern English Days GrCh Female
2015 Autumn Oaks BFOS
2016 English Day Champion Female and Overall Queen of Show
2018 Autumn Oaks Overall Opposite Sex National Grand
2020 World Champion English Female


UKC GrCh AKC GRCH Melrose Mtn This is My Town (T-Roy) Plott
2015 UKC NC State Opposite Sex Winner
2013 UKC Saluda Coondog Days Gr Male and King of Show
2013 UKC NPHA Plott Days Overall King of Show
2015 National Grand Plott
2018 National Grand Opposite Sex Plott


In Loving Memory
GrCh Melrose Mtn Lil Bit of Beau - "Tucker" 8-28-2006 to 1-21-2011
Ch Melrose Mtn Sugar and Spice "Sugar" 11-17-2011 to 4-6-2014

GrCh Melrose Mtn Amazing Gracie
8-28-2006 to 8-25-2019

GrCh Melrose Mtn Lily
8-26-2004 to 9-4-2019


Yesterday is History
Tomorrow is a Mystery
Today is a Gift
That's why we call it
"The Present"

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Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Swainsboro, Ga
Posts: 901

Isn't this why most people go to the shows anyway? LOL!! When you look at the winners this past weekend and how many were from different breeds - only a select few of those are actually running the Purina race. As Tricia said, it is quite expensive and not everyone has the time or the means to do it.

Most were probably just there to enjoy a nice show weekend with their friends - bad weather and all!!

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: michigan
Posts: 2573

Having some experience at this I would like to say I've seen a lot of good judging at most of the shows I attended. Likely not 100% perfect, but what is, and just a couple just not experienced enough yet for tufter shows where they had to split hairs to get a winner. Sometimes inexperience is selected and put on the spot by those running things who don't consider the shows important . Anything you take a entrants money for should be important enough to do right and show that you care that's it's done right. Some judges over the years I've actually felt were qualified to make their statements about the winners , others just said things that were off the wall that did more harm than good. I hate to see a dog badly discredited in front of a crowd of people by the judge instead of simply stating why they liked the dog that won.
Any event that's advertised open to all breeds is just that' open' , so don't blame people for showing up and spending their time and money and bringing the best they have .
Besides the obvious issues we deal with these days I believe shows have gotten much more competitive and refined and those that aren't willing to put in the training time often don't enter . Also if what you prefer in a dog just isn't what will win a show then you are wasting your time and money. Personal choice.
I actually feel worst for the state championships that are Purina events as they don't have a separate King & Queen to fall back on when the top dogs show up and more or less rain on their parade.
Politics is a broad spectrum used by many that I consider at least 95% a non issue or most of us would have quit long ago.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Comer, Georgia
Posts: 4724

...the state championships as purina events..........I'll preface this by saying I think the larger state shows should be Purina.........BUT...........having state championships as Purina Events HURTS attendance.......yeah, there may be a few more dogs there because of Purina, but in the end, the small time bench show contestant is NOT gonna waist his $$$ entering when he knows he has no chance against the 7 or 8 dogs coming from Kentucky, Pa, Virginia, etc, that are the best in the country.........used to be the average show person had a chance at something, if they had a good dog, at the state show.......folks didn't drive 6 hours from Alabama, NC, Virginia, PA, Indiana, etc, to attend a bench show.............now they do..........just my opinion..........again, I AGREE the larger shows SHOULD be Purina........and I'll say this...........those bench show folks are some dedicated individuals...............I drive excessive distances to hunt for several hours in a hunt.............but these folks will drive 6 hours to stand a hound on a bench for 5 minutes............dang!!!

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Last edited by coon dawg on 04-01-2009 at 04:28 PM

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Registered: Apr 2006
Location:
Posts: 6548

thanks Hookworm but i was talking total entries.hunt, show,
treeing contest,i dont thank you can have 1 with out the other.

p.s you want find the # anywhere dual dogs,pairs,treeing contest
are not part of the lic. event but all people in buss. want to make
money...

Last edited by Lee Currens Jr. on 04-02-2009 at 01:28 AM

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Registered: Feb 2009
Location: South Of The Mason Dixon Line
Posts: 52

quote:

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Originally posted by mrbluedog
You all need to get BBCHA to do it like BBOA and bring back all gr.ch. ch. and breed winners for the King and Queen.

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Registered: Aug 2008
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Posts: 872

Maybe so, since the new president is selling his walker dogs to represent the BBOA. Can I geta "huh"???

Last edited by heckler on 04-02-2009 at 01:50 AM

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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Sedalia mo
Posts: 685

quote:

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Originally posted by Mule Barn
I didnt know this was a bbcha vs bboa thing, but since this post is full of opinions, I think I will give mine.

The BBOA SUCKS.

Maybe the change of presidents will get them back on track.

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Registered: Sep 2008
Location: illinois
Posts: 540

Mike dont take offense to ole Mule Breath. He's a tough guy behind the user name and no address.

Some good points made here. My opinion is and always will be, that Anytime you have big money , traveling a circuit with set goals, they will accomplish those goals. That being said, I am in favor of "If you want to show your hound, enter them in the hunt" philosophy. Who cares how good lookin the s.o.b is if it cant compete in the woods. WE'd end alot of B.S. with this, but will never happen as the entrys would fall off and the show people would create their own deal. Maybe that would be best after all. I dont know. JMO.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: illlinois
Posts: 1902

has the purina shows hurt any events? depends upon who you ask. LOL! sorry, bob. but you know that to be true. politics? always going to be around. intimidating a bsj? always going to be around. not knowing how to judge a dog's faults, and why, always going to be around. some are knowledgeable. some picks handlers. some pick bigger winning hounds. and some, well...couldn't judge their way through a paper sack. LOL! we all know these types of people. it isn't going to change.

i've said before...when you have a competitive nature and the desire to win? it maybe that some folks don't like your way of going about winning. and we all know that to be true.

the current hounds running purina, hunt or show, have an equal right to participate in any show or hunt, except those specifically advertised as one breed. several of the breed asociations have given seperate breed only shows and hunts, so we can't argue any different. it is up to each individual breed ass'n. to determine what they will or will not do. make suggestions for any changes you would like to see, at their national board days membership meeting. if you can't attend? then ask someone to ask for you. slamming any association, or its leadership, on a message board, sure isn't the way to go about it.

i am responsible, in part for our new bboa president, to ever own a walker. he helped me when i needed it and purchased a walker from me. he never has, nor ever will be, a walker person. mike , like myself, has the blessing of being open-minded, to the fact, like in people, there are good and bad. i enjoy a good hound, any breed, that can tree a coon or represent the breed standard to it's fullest, on the bench.

i've had walkers, english, and blueticks for a while now. i am partial to blueticks. didn't know it made me wrong for enjoying them as i see fit. or i was a traitor in doing so. LOL!

the color points of any coonhound standard, is 5! the blanket, or saddleback, bluetick is not off standard. nor is the all-blue (no tan trim). this breed has a broad range of different color combinations. that is what makes it so unique when you get a lil "snowball" and watch it grow into a beautiful bluetick.

purina events have been popular. competitors are going to enter. the economy will slow some down. and i can only reply...go. have fun. meet up with your buddies. and if you happen to see me? just say HI! LOL!

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Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Greenville,Oh
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Here is what I've come to realize!
1 The economy will affect entries.

2 If a person shows up to a show and sees a dog there that has beaten them a couple times or a dog they know is better than theirs they are more than likely not going to enter or stop going altogether.

3 If and When people get tired of the way a program is being run they will let us know by not participating.It is when this lack of participating is realized that a little reorginazation is in order.

4 If it isn't broke don't fix. Though I am a firm believer of PREVENTIVE MAINTIENCE. Their are a couple things that were talked about on this thread that could use a little grease so to speak.

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