Registered: Jun 2006
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it all boils down to the shining time is not started til all the dogs are handled..!!

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Registered: Apr 2006
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come on guys you know you cant score the same coon twiced.
+ all dogs strike and tree call time out,1hr to catch.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: North GA
Posts: 14395

quote:

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Originally posted by blueticking: it
come on guys you know you cant score the same coon twiced.
+ all dogs strike and tree call time out,1hr to catch.

---

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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: mid-michigan
Posts: 4437

The good outweighs the bad on this one.
The dogs treed.
Stayed treed till ya got there.
Were ok'd to be handled.
And left chasing the same coon they treed.
The only thing wrong is the " shine time " technicality (sp?).
I'd plus 'em and tell the guys to catch their dogs.

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Registered: Dec 2007
Location: silver lake
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wheres JIM i"m going with his call

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Registered: Mar 2006
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Posts: 32

All dogs get strike points plused dog A gets a line drawn through his tree points (deleted) the other dogs get minused tree points and dog has to be recast to dogs unless timeout has to be called because of hunting territory or highway.

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Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Ironton OH
Posts: 16

CATCH THE OTHER DOGS AND PLUS THEM IN THE WAY THEY WERE STRUCK AND TREED AND THEN FINISH THE HUNT COON WAS SEEN AND DOGS WERE TOLD TO BE HANDLED BY JUDGE.

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Registered: May 2006
Location: Wiscoonsin
Posts: 1941

quote:

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Originally posted by wfo123
All dogs get strike points plused dog A gets a line drawn through his tree points (deleted) the other dogs get minused tree points and dog has to be recast to dogs unless timeout has to be called because of hunting territory or highway.

---

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Registered: Mar 2008
Location: gillsville ga
Posts: 259

You can score same coon as many times as it can be done but score a tree once. This happen in a hunt one time by a very big winning dog he takes a 100 on strike and is treed for 100 cast arrives he has caught a coon on the ground delete tree plus strike walk a minute and cut he turns around and goes back and then trees for a 100 riht where he caught the coon cast arrives and coon is in the tree. It can be done in this scenario a gets circled or minus b c d tree is minus still holding strike no matter if you see 20 coons come out of the whole shine time was not started and you can't score a tree till all dogs at that tree are handled and when the coon was seen all dogs where not handled and shine time had not been started just a bad break for handler a but if I was handler a circle and let me get re cut so I can atleast get a piece of the coon that my dog treed

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: NE Ohio
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B,C,D - Take minus Tree Points right off the top for leaving the tree/hole. They do however keep their strike points.

Dog A - Check that hole out and see if there's another coon in there. If yes, plus both ways. If no, Circle both ways. Tough break since you do know at least one coon was there.

If dogs B,C,D, are still hot after the coon when the cast says they're satisfied with A's tree, A can be flipped loose again.

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Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Cutler, Il.
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all dogs would be plused. It says nothing about coon must be seen during shine time. Rule 8f only states that NO PLUS points will be awarded, if coon is seen AFTER the 10 minute shine time has expired.

As for the coon coming out of the hole before dogs B, C, & D could be handled, turn dog A loose & split the strike points. I don't think you can call time out in this situation?

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Forget about the shine time, there is no shine time started when scoring dogs in the ground. The judge ordered all dogs handled so all dogs must be handled. And you can't minus for leaving because that rule does not apply to holes, only one dog has to show the hole.
Plus all dogs both ways, call time out, gather dogs B,C,D.

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Registered: Apr 2006
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Posts: 6548

thank dad i mean JIM

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Registered: Mar 2008
Location: gillsville ga
Posts: 259

Jim you know these rules better than anyone but I don't see how dogs don't get minused for leaving if they can receive tree points forbeing there they should be able to receive minus tree points for leaving there

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Registered: Dec 2004
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jim,i dont ever disagree with you ,but this one im going to..if you have a dog at a hole how much time you going to allow to find a coon in it..i think you would have to start the ten minutes...and i do know that if this was a tree even though a dog did nt get handle and left he is minused his tree points..is there a difference

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: New Franklin, MO
Posts: 1182

Why is there not a shine time for a hole? What if someone could squall the coon out of the hole. I would think you should put the time on it just the same as a tree tie the dogs back and see what happens.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
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Jim, I think if they are declared treed they have to stay.

If they wouldn't have been declared treed then they would have been OK, and only one dog has to show the hole, but if a tree call is made they have to stay. That's the reason I don't tree if I think my dog is at a hole, they won't stay long as I have broke them from it, if they stay long enough to get there then they get plus or circle/minus strike, if we are not on top of them and they leave like they have been trained to do I get minused my tree points no matter what so I won't tree my dog if it's at a hole.

You may be right on the "shine time doesn't apply to holes", don't know about that one. IF you are then I agree dog A gets plused both ways, and dogs bcd get minused tree with strike still open. I'll have to look closer.

Since dogs are running and no dogs declared treed dog A MUST be turned into the race again.

What I am confused about is Todd had an advisor several years ago about dogs leaving a tree after being told to be handled. I can't remember what he said about that, whether they were considered "at" the tree because they were there when the judge said handle them and they were scored accordingly with the handlers having 1 hour to catch the dogs, or if he said "tough luck, they left minus tree and continue strike". I can't remember which way he went with that one.

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Last edited by Rip on 03-27-2009 at 02:34 PM

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Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:

---

Originally posted by Kenny Eads
Why is there not a shine time for a hole? What if someone could squall the coon out of the hole. I would think you should put the time on it just the same as a tree tie the dogs back and see what happens.

---

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

quote:

---

Originally posted by blueticking: it
better leave the hole alone might see something you dont
want to see.

---

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 3847

All Dogs were Declared Treed. So they fall under those rules.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

Jim, the rules about holes, at the end plainly says if dogs are declared treed see rule 3 and 4c, and the rule 4c that it directs you to is that the dogs must stay or be minused.

So the determining factor is what Todd said about dogs leaving the tree after being told to be handled but before they are handled, and I can't for the life of me remember which way he went with that one. I know what I THINK he said, but I don't want to confuse anybody. That is the crux of what is going on here I think.

I think shine time applies to holes too according to 8f, it says 10 minutes to shine tree or place of refuge (holes) so I would say dog A can only get circled/minused because he can't get plused unless another coon seen because shine time hadn't started.

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Last edited by Rip on 03-27-2009 at 02:33 PM

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Registered: Dec 2004
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rip i discussed the situation with allen on a dog that didnt get caught at a tree and he left,opened up on track and retreed left that tree and returned to the orignal tree..that dog was minused for leaving first tree and second tree and track...

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Registered: Jun 2003
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Yes, but talking to him doesn't count as the official word if there is another published version. What is the official word is the one that was published in the previous advisor column that Todd had written on the subject. (Alan can change that at any time if he wanted to, it's his position and perrogative to do so, but I think since there is something published that would stay official until the alternate ruling is actually published). Not that Alan would willy nilly change anything anyway, for the most part he has been consistant with Todd, who tried to be consistant witht he ones before him etc, but people are people and sometimes they don't see things the same way and there have been some subtle changes over the years. (Heck it could have even been Tank for that matter, it was several years ago).

I am not saying what he said disagreed with what Todd wrote becasue I honestly can't remember which way he went with it, and Alan has been consistant with supporting previous rulings. I do remember that Todd wrote one about that specific situation, and until another one is published whatever Todd said at that time is what UKC's official stance is.

I just wish I could remember for sure which way he went.

I am betting since you talked with Alan that he went that way or Alan wouldn't have said what he did, which would make the most sense, but I just can't remember for some reason. I have a block LOL.

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Last edited by Rip on 03-27-2009 at 02:47 PM

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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
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Jim ????? Are you feeling ok? lol.

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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9282

Rip,

I think I can probably answer that question for you in regards to dogs (declared treed) leaving after having been ordered to be handled.

Pretty simple actually. Any dog(s) that are declared treed must be handled at that tree or hole, place of refuge etc. (Jim). Otherwise they are subject to Rule 4(c). The fact that a judge ordered them to be "handled" is irrelavent.

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