Registered: Jun 2003
Location: OHIO
Posts: 962

if you mix them all up and do get that super dog,how are you going to repeat------make all those mixed up crosses AGAIN and hope???? seems to me those walker dogs that are winning and are so consistant are mostly LINEBRED not to say that there isnt value in outcrossing your linebred female onto super dog. ha ha im going to hold my ears!!!!! but i can take it

Last edited by willscrk on 08-20-2003 at 01:34 AM

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Oakdale, Pennsylvania
Posts: 3753

Simple genetics as taught in High School... When like genes combine you get that trait,, good or bad,,, Line breeding combines like genes quicker so you know what you have,,good or bad... Constant outcrossing brings on a larger gene pool thus makes gettin out the bad traits a harder process..I ain't gettin no younger guys.... Outcrossing should be done selectively and culling must be hard.... Many have done it before us and continue to do so.. I am thankful for those of you reading this who fit into this catagory.... I can't dedicate the time or resources for family reasons so my hat is off to those who can... I am however a student of those who have gone on before us and who currently come up with successes and work to improve the bluetick as we know it... Lets take the lessons learned in the breeding pen and cull the failures never to cross those bridges again and improve these flop eared hound dogs we so enjoy....

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Fan of the of the Bragg and Vaughn Blues !! TREE OLD HUSSLER in Memory of DOC Householder... Rest in Peace Rev. Kenneth Adkins my dear friend !! Home Will's Creek Savage Sioux-Zee!!
Yeah, I competition hunt !! All Fall and Winter long.. My Blues compete with the local coon.. My Blues win a ton !!! We use and recommend MOONSHINER LIGHTS, Peggs , Ok.

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: upstate new york
Posts: 81

old doc householder told me linebreeding ist he way to improve what you already have it magnaifies both sides the good and the bad and by being selective in what you breed to that down the road all the dogs out of one litter should be the same! now what i have done is form a plan on what kind of dog i want, and now im trying to get there though linebreeding its not gona be over night but by slective breeding and culling the ones that wont fit into my plain down the road it will all show in a hound.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Longview Texas
Posts: 801

you dont want to do so much line-breeding. Line-breeding can be a great tool in developing looks and conformation and hunting instincts, but does little for their overall intelligence. Okay look at the walkers for example most of them are at least are heavy to moderately "linebred" . Many, many crosses that should be "good" only produce 1 or 2 nice dogs and the rest worthless! Many time what should be a good cross between 2 exceptional Walker hounds won't even produce 1 good dog! And this is something you just dont see in Blueticks! You breed 2 nice hounds and you are going to get at least a few good pups! If everyone starts heavy linebreeding then we will be just like the Walkers . Sure we will have old Superdog po up every once in awhile , we may even win a World hunt that way. Me, I'm not looking to be like the Walkers, I want something different and better.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Cartersville, Ga.
Posts: 337

Now we have our thinking cap on. I bet if you start looking around in those "super dogs" background you will see some similarities. Breeding these hounds will bring that gene pool in tighter. But as always you don't want to cancel or butt heads in the gene pool. This is old hat. But not being afraid that your next " super dog" comes from a cross with the competition is the barrier we are facing. Knock that wall down and then look out. Best wishes to all in their efforts. Harry.

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Mulberry Blue

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: OHIO
Posts: 962

what makes you think that intelligence is different from any other trait??? one more thing--if you are not already real close to having the type dog that you want, linebreeding sure wont improve anything but finding better breeding stock and linebreeding just might. mulberry i can relate to what you are saying but the only competition i feel i have are the other 5 breeds.i havnt run across a blue breeder yet that wasnt happy to share his stud or sell some of his stock.just because they dont knock down my door wanting mine doesnt mean they are the competition.

Last edited by willscrk on 08-20-2003 at 07:28 AM

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Longview Texas
Posts: 801

What I mean is this. I like linebreeding and have done a little of it but not much. I think linebreeding can sustain a good breeding program but you still need a total outcross sometimes. After a few years of linebreeding you should be able to figure out where you need the most improvement, then find the line that is the strongest where you feel you are the weakest and it should work to your favor. As for intelligence, if you were inbreeding dogs you would see a drop in this area, there are exceptions but as a rule it doesnt work, so in my opinion if you linebreed to much it could be as damaging as inbreeding. This is just an opinion.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Longview Texas
Posts: 801

I agree with you, linebreeding is not a way to improve any faults in your line of dogs. If you are happy with your dogs it can keep you in good shape, but there is always room for improvements and I think outcrossing is the key. On the other hand linebreeding can boost a lines good points too, such as mouth, looks, pressure treedogs, even intelligence if you dont go to far, but it can also boost faults, such as babbling, chewing etc.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Cartersville, Ga.
Posts: 337

Warren, good answer on the competition. We need more of that type thinking. I agree to an extent on the linebreeding. It sometimes closes a lot of doors that should be opened. It will help to retain characteristics. We just have to be honest enough to know when we need to go outside and get some added strengths. And not wait too long to do it. But I'm no expert. Hey, I'm still dumb enough to keep feeding this plug I got stuck with. Good luck.

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Mulberry Blue

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: OHIO
Posts: 962

before me and they documented their findings. how do you suppose purebred strains like labs,pointers,poodles and such came to be??? no different than livestock or vegetables all would be deemed inbred-- no other way to make them pure and breed true to type. when a weakness is uncovered by linebreeding individuals in a family,the 1st step should be to find another from the same family that is strong in this area.if that is not possible then there would be a need to outcross.if the fault is corrected in a few of those offspring it would then be time to linebreed them. of course all of this will only come to be if the breeder can accurately assess his stock.looking back elbert vaughn was as close as any but one mans lifetime is not enough and his stock was diluted and let waste away.

mulberry you should be proud of those good crosses you have made on river.i would wager you will be building on them for a long time to come. warren

Last edited by willscrk on 08-20-2003 at 09:01 AM

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: vt
Posts: 1256

hey i know a lot of walker breeders that dont breed for nite hunts.. breeding for nose.. endurance , track speed, etc. i breed for dogs that will tree a bear.. anyways.. my breed is walkers but im breeding for a lot of same things you guys like about the blutics.. do you know of any bobcat hunters with blutics... takes a super quick fast accurate track dog that is a great locator.. one miss and cat gets ahead. im talking about bobcats in thick country.. any dog can run them takes an exceptional dog to catch them in a lot of places... i think this dog would clean house in a nite hunt.. anyways i wish you blutic guys luck... i know how you feel.. im a bear hunter using walkers in a world full of plott guys... when asked now i just say i got albino plotts. walkers get no respect in the bear hunting world. hey ive found out a lot of legendary plott guys running bobcat with walkers though.. wonder why? pete

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Longview Texas
Posts: 801

If you are saying Blueticks are too slow to run a cat, then I say you havnt been with enough Blueticks. Of all the years I have been coonhunting I have NEVER noticed Walkers Being "faster" than Blueticks.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: vt
Posts: 1256

tex ok i reread what i said i guess i didnt make it as clear as i could have..... ive seen a few blutics in my life that id call real speedy....but same thing ive only seen a few of any breed id call fast.. cat dog has to have real track speed and locating ability. never seen a dog too slow to run a cat what i see is a lot of dogs too slow to catch one .. ive only seen a very few dogs that caught them of any breed... if i was a blutic breeder and i was looking to improve the speed and the ability to tree a layup coon id look for a successful bobcat hunter using blutics.... forget about titles . forget about haveing old so and so in pedigree. breed to a blutic big game hound. a cat hound would be best if your looking for coondogs... (better locators) my point is a lot of guys breeding dogs that can tree a coon.. it takes a little more dog to catch a bobcat or small bear. i think a lot of coonhunters overlook this.. if you run dogs for hours instead of minutes you may notice differences in speed might not notice on a coon race.. im not going to argue about speed of blutics compared to walkers. ill say the very fastest ive seen from either breed are comparable.. an average dog in any breed is too slow to tree alot of small bear here in the summer or catch many cats in the winter.. those same average dogs will catch almost every coon.. pete

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Cartersville, Ga.
Posts: 337

Pete, you may have a real point there. Years and years ago, I had a bitch that loved cat. I didn't have a shock collar so I couldn't break her that way. I chased that old dog on foot forever. A cat can flat get gone. My hunting freinds would just go on and leave me. They knew it was going to be a while before I got that bitch back. After a while she got pretty good at making them climb. But she treed on them like a coon hound. They would let me get close or rest up and bail out. The race would go again. I am not sure but I think a good cat dog needs to tree like a squirell dog? Back from the tree so the cat doesn't jump out? Correct me if I'm wrong. I do know that to make them climb a dog has to lean on them and keep leaning. Speed and stamina. I don't think she caught any on the ground but I know she sure scared a few of them. Good point about the track ability.

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Mulberry Blue

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: bloomington,IN
Posts: 796

Lonnie Smiley told that Rambo II was running a bob cat and cought it on the ground and killed it.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Talala, Oklahoma
Posts: 5208

Down in the Ozarks where I grew up, I didn't know anybody that hunted bobcats. That country was so rough and there were so many bluffs and ledges that cats were hard to tree.

But I had an old Blue gyp that I killed several bobcats with. Harry, she tree back off the tree like a squirrel dog. In fact, if she was sitting off to one side of the tree, you could almost always look straight above where she was sitting down treeing, and the coon would there. I don't know how she knew where they were so much of the time, but she would usually be sitting directly under the coon, even if it was high up in the tree.

She was also a powerhouse track dog. I wouldn't call her the fastest track dog I ever had, but she never made any bad loses, and she kept the pressure on. She was as good a coon dog as I ever had, but she would occasionally run a cat.

The only bobcats I ever treed at night and kept treed were with her.

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Why do people get so hung up on breeds and bloodlines???? If what you have is not working get something that does.Dont sit around talking about how you need one that has a little something different just go get it.Dont get so hung up on a bloodlines, that you get blind to whats going on.Just because you had a good one out of that same blood 10 years ago that was good.Lonnie does have some nice dogs, but you want see one at his house that is a track stradler or takes any amount of time to locate a tree.I dont understand why everyone gets so color blind.I have walker dogs but if you show me one in a differnt breed that I like better I will be hunting it.I drew three blue dogs in a hunt 2 months ago and my dog treed 3 coon that thier dogs were not on.And all they could talk about was what they were going to breed those dogs to next.I wanted to say open youre eyes fellows youre getting smoked!!!!!! So what I'm tring to say is dont get hung up on one bloodline or one breed just because you had one that was nice,if it isnt working get something different.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: vt
Posts: 1256

thats right joey . if you just want to hunt. its not a problem to go thru a few dogs to get one thats pretty close. if your trying to breed dogs you cant switch around.. im limited to how many dogs i can keep so keep just one breed... i breed what i hunt . its a long term thing.. takes a few generations to make a difference.. i didnt invent the dogs i have now . just put together some of work others did before me. its kind of a slow process. its the same no matter what breed. i like a hound . i want nose... my walkers may be more like a blutic than a lot of blutics are. its not everybodies main thing to win nite hunts.. joey how come those blutics weren t on those three coons? dint go far enough..? . old tracks? layups? shut them out on time.... to me its not really a breed thing . more diffrence within breeds than between breeds.. i see a lot of wasted time arguing about breeds . i do it too. pick on any of my buddies if they are hunting something besides walker. but its just in fun.. its fun as long s you keep it that way. i got smoked by a blutic once. right in front of a big time blutic guy . talk about embarassing... now i ran with same dog alot. i would beat him 3 out of 4 times.. my dogs had been run on bear 5 days in arow. this dog was rested and showed my mutts how to run. i didnt make excuses .. just had to grin and bear it. .. i want a rematch.. i have learned by getting smoked a few times to show my dogs at their best.. pete

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I just get a little frustrated sometimes Pete,my dog shut them out on the first one,split on the second one and they were standing by owr feet on the third one.I know it takes a long time to breed what you want I've owned or hunted whith the females in 5 generations of my dogs ped.But we have to learn to cull the ones that dont work out. To many people want to keep and breed sub par dogs because they were out of old Joe that they owned 10 years ago. If old Joe's line isnt doing what you want get something else.I just cant under stand people sticking with a bloodline for years that isnt working because they had one or two that did.This isnt a Bluetick thing I'm talking about all breeds.And I know not everyone breeds for comp. I dont, I breed for a dog that has hart,knows how to run a track,doesnt stand around me but doesnt blow out,trees steddy but not a idiot and want leave before I get there.AND HAS A COON!!!!!! And I will not stand for a agressive dog. Isnt that what we all want?I believe it is so why dont we get rid of some of owr pride and get rid of some of this sorry dogs.

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Muldrow, Oklahoma
Posts: 499

Just one question If because a dog is slow do you consider him not a coondog but just a wast I mean you Competion hunters need to buy some cur dogs and leave the hounds alone.

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Dan Sagely

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A slow track dog means one of two things. 1. he cant move the track any faster or 2.he has no desire to move the track fast both of wich are traits I dont want.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: vt
Posts: 1256

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joey
A slow track dog means one of two things. 1. he cant move the track any faster or 2.he has no desire to move the track fast both of wich are traits I dont want.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Upper Michigan
Posts: 118

Pete, Harry

I finally read through all these post on this subject and quite frankly was tired of all the excuses. Mulberry (Harry), I have corresponded with you in the past and I think you are right on track.

The topic of Bluetick cat dogs, I just couldn't read any more, I had to put my 2 cents on the board.

I live in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan and hunt coons and cats, I've had blues for over 20 years and grew up in southern Ohio. I don't call myself a breeder but I hunt what I breed. I raise a few litters of pups every so often, but only because I've tried to produce a better bluetick, not to sell pups.

I love coon hunting, but cat hunting is great too and seperates the whos who. Almost to a T, everyone here cat hunts with Walkers, breeders of some renown and yes even the Plott guys.
I have tried running my blues on these cats for quite some time and fellows, it takes a good dog to run a cold track to jump the cat to locating it when it goes up. Not all strains of blueticks being advertised today can do it. It comes right down to cold tracking ability and rigging/locating ability something not stressed enough.

Mr, Jim Wale and several others in lower MI hunt cats also with their blues and are successful. Thay would tell you the same thing.

I have went out and found the different strains with like ancestors 4-5 gen back and they work for me. I think the old Vaughn blood and Sebastien blood has brought it back for me.
Crossing Jet/Levi/Chief of mine onto the best old Sebastien blood (which is 100% Vaughn) works. They suit me and can rig from the truck, take an old cat track in 0 degree weather, cold trail, jump the cat and flat get after that cat with speed now and locate it when it goes up. Tree dogs that stay and strive to please. Those same dogs suit me on coon and can generally hold their own in any company.
I do plan on breeding one of my gyps to Mulberry's River dog and or getting a pup because of a trait he possesses and I like. The rigging/locating ability that is fast becoming lost along with being from like bloodlines and a Reproducer.

Talking about track speed?? Guy I hunt with has a walker dog that is one of the best cat dogs in the country. Can flat dust any dog hunted with him. How?? He drifts a track with his head up and flat out. Sometimes 20 feet of the cat track and running a cold 1 day old track like it was red hot. Most dogs tend to run the track itself and won't keep up. This dog has a tendency to overrun a spin or make a loose more so than others but once picked up, leaves em. Cathes cat on the ground and great locater. Same dog is close to being a dual grand and a dandy squirrel dog. Just wish he was blue and that pushes me to find one that hunts like him or produce it. Linebred?? He is to the hilt and hats off to the breeder(s) behind him, they did their homework. (Frank Giddings) Pete hit the nail on the head.

Enuff rambling as emet brohard used to say. Knock down the walls and lets all produce what we are talking about on here.

Hats off to all the hard work you all are doing. Keep it up!

G. Cunningham

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Richmond, Kentucky
Posts: 3747

Cold nose dogs are great, but I must add if one is cold nose she/he must be able to do something with a track. Sounds as if Mr. Cummingham has something going there for him in his cross that no one has said about having any of that type nose in their hounds. Mr. Cunningham I would like to purchase a puppy from your next litter if that is possible please let me know. That old blood of Elbert Vaughn's stock does not exist in this country, and that sure is no doubt the foundation of the Bluetick Breed.......

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John M. Vaught

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We have talked a bit before, just wanted to say that sure is a good stock of dogs you are runnin, shoot me an email if you would, I would like to talk dogs with you sometime...or leave me your #, and what time I can call, and I will call ya.....what you are runnin I think would be benificial to any breeder, I want some of that old vaughn in my dogs.....

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