Registered: Sep 2006
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I have often wondered how a cross from a Walker and English Pointer would turn out...

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Registered: Sep 2008
Location: illinois
Posts: 540

This crossin up black dogs and walker dogs is great idea!?! Is this the same guy who took on 12 or 15 Black and tan pups at once to start out a breeding program? Then all the sudden disappered from the magazine? Guys do what you want, but realize all the hard work the founding breeders went through to breede and register the breeds of hounds we have today. Dont dump a bunch of mixed up crap in the breeds cause your to lazy or weak to cull the registered stock. My Two Cents. Thank you

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Registered: Sep 2008
Location: illinois
Posts: 540

We need more input on this subject from Randy. How can you need more percentages of b&ts to turn out? Cause all them pups you got at once didnt work? Could it be the handler? Now you go off over here and over there. You have to stick with it to improve it. Please dont single reg. that garbage with u.k.c. There are plenty of other registrys that will do it.

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Registered: Sep 2008
Location: illinois
Posts: 540

Would like some input from Randy here?

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 2410

Joseph , send Randy one of your B&T pups and make a believer out of him ...


... it's easy to talk , but harder to back it up . Randy put alot of work in those pups and they didn't pan out ... I am impressed that Randy has stuck with it and actually had the discipline to cull the junk .

For some reason , these threads seem to throw the burden of the breed quality onto everyone but ourselves ... it's "their" fault or whatever ...

Crossing between hunting breeds won't hurt a thing ... there's more important things to worry about right outside our own backdoor.

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Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Norfolk Naval Base, Norfolk, VA
Posts: 669

it would do black an tans good to have a little walker in em in my opinion

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Registered: Sep 2008
Location: illinois
Posts: 540

Come on man,we all didnt just fall off the turnip truck. When you are going to start off a breeding program, and do it publicly, your gonna catch some heck. Also , you dont improve a breed in a year or two it takes time. All he is doing is making a laughing stock of the breed. I do not own a black and tan. I do know several top B&t breeders that have outstanding hounds and hounds that reproduce. Not all hounds are good reproducers, thats why you have to spend time with the breed and the fellas that are doing it right.Not blaming anyone, sorry if this offends you. I just strongly disagree with any form of cross breeding, coming back into the registered stock.

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Registered: Dec 2007
Location: Waynesburg, KY
Posts: 295

What about when hide getting was a big part of our ancestors livelyhoods? some of the best were crossbreds. now some were not persay competition dogs but would absolutly have the meat & that being said it sure wouldn't hurt all of our beloved breeds to have that nose & accuracy, but I do think it can be fixed within our own breeds but don't object to crossbreeding either. Infact there's a Utchman bred Bluetick booked by a good freind to breed to Nut thats a coondog. this guy has had several Nut pups & wants to try it to get some English dogs because he sees how he dominates entire litters & says there the best coondogs he's ever hunted & every dog has been from different lines of females not related in there 3 generation pedigree which is hard to find in walkers especially. besides I'm very interested in seeing how he dominates other breeds& shows in his grandpups of the crossbreeding. Afterall look at what hard time speck done for the English breed& maybe he will too. Can't wait but will only be registered if they're coondogs & am not afraid to cull either. some English people may not realize Speck was a Walker dog granded & single reg English granded again & then ACHA world champion

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I have no objection to Crossbreeding as long as it is done on the up and up, and on record.
I have a bigger problem with some breeder's continuely breeding crap within they're own breed and then trying to feed the public a line of b.s. telling us how good it is.
To each his own.

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Registered: Sep 2008
Location: illinois
Posts: 540

I wont change anyones minds,but if youall are ok with it why are you using ukcs website,and for that matter why are you even registering dogs? Your right some mixed up dogs will excel at hide and competition hunting, then why fool with registered stock? Why not start your own cur breeders registery? I would rather improve the breed from within than bring in some outside breed and wonder why the 2nd and 3rd generation isnt breeding true. once again my opinion and do not intend to offend anyone.

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Registered: Dec 2007
Location: Waynesburg, KY
Posts: 295

Mark, I couldn't agree more about breeding sorry females or males to anything within their own breed. If poeple would let the like or dislike for individuals go the breeds would be a lot better off. I'm sure we've all heard someone say I wouldn't breed to anything old so & so owned because they can't stand him(or her). the truth is we all need to breed to something that is reproducing coondogs not treedogs. there are still a lot of people that go out & buy dogs because they like the pedigree of said dog especially females & never hunt it to see if it's a coondog & breed it just to raise a litter of pups out of their old dog & then wonder why they don't turn out. That being said if i like what I see in the offspring of old so & sos dog & think it will help my line than I'm going to try it as i'm trying to produce coondogs first. If I see a female that I think will help produce good balanced coondogs I'm going to try it too if i've saw offspring from this female. I pick pups for my use from proven reproducing females only & luckily I know the common traits Nut pups in his pups & see it in every litter I've saw out of him so I like to put a lot of emphasis on the females especially & it hasn't failed me yet luckily.

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Registered: Dec 2007
Location: Waynesburg, KY
Posts: 295

Chris & I also are lucky enough to let the pups we raise here run loose & I pick my pups based on how these pups act & hunt when running loose , natural indepence, disposition. The wife also has a lot of cats & I can see pups tree styles lol, but i always pick the one that loves going to the woods on their own the most. as for the cats the pups always get pinned up when they start trying to get to rough on them as momma gets rough on me lol, but letting them run loose until 3 to 4 months really helps evaluate these for me & it hasn't let me down yet as I always have a nice young dog I'm hunting & have never had trash problems either. I just expose them to coon & never have deer, fox,or coyote problems. I'll probably get criticised for this but this is the way I do it & we've always got dogs that tree a high percentage of coon & wouldn't change it at all as long as we're lucky enough to let them run loose.

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Registered: Jan 2006
Location: ROGERSVILLE,TN
Posts: 195

i agree with you one hundred % i have hunted b&t,s for years and know alot of breaders and fancyer. but i can't figer out who desided that our breed was broken. and further more who voted on who was going to be the one that fixed it. maybe it's just me but i find it to be very insulting to me and to the people before me that spent years improoving there line of black dogs. so in short i'll just say if your are not satisfied with the breed that you hunt. chang don't make thing more difficult for the uneducated buyer.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 2410

Some of yall aren't much for research and fact checking , huh .... the breed associations determine the rules for single registration of pure or crossbreds that look the part ... crosses have been registered for years with UKC .

Mr Mcdonald , how many generations of your own dogs have you bred ?

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Registered: Sep 2008
Location: illinois
Posts: 540

Mr. Smith I am currently on my fourth generation of my breeding. Should be farther along , but I cull Hard. That is actually irrelavant. The topic here is someone feels the Black dogs need fixed. And their gonna do it by cross breeding. You are correct,UKC does allow the breed assoc. to single register if the assc. votes to open single reg. The problem with this is,usually its voted on at The breed days meeting and not every breeder of hounds is there, and people that dont breed and people that shouldnt breed get to vote. My personal belief is we started all these breeds by mixing and matching, a few serious breeders within each breed got down to business perfecting type and traits. With so many varied strains within each breed ,why should any one need to breed outside of the breed. Sorry I dont get it, oh well.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 2410

Well , it matters alot if a guy can back up what he says .... everyone has ideas but not everyone has proof , so congratulations on that one .

But , check this out .... just take a look at all the breeds that are pure and have been for a long time . That road leads to some serious health , mental ,etc ... defects and we can see it happening bigtime in alot of the breeds that don't single register .

Responsible breeding allows for elbow room ... you can do alot of different things like inbreeding , outcrossing , crossbreeding or whatever ... IF ... you cull hard , have an educated game plan and so on .

If it looks and acts like a B&T .... nobody here can tell it aint , so unless we as hunters are more concerned with putting on airs like the foo-foo world ... that's good enough , aint it ?

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Registered: Sep 2008
Location: illinois
Posts: 540

Mr. Smith, I think I understand what you are trying to convey. Im not trying to save the world so to speak, I am taking evidently, an unpopular stand. I am against single registration all together, with the exception of lost papers, breeders and owners signing an avidavit. I believe what yall are attempting to do, is probably with good intentions,but myself cannot see benefit of bringing crosses like this to the registered stock. This is really all yalls deal, but i wanted to voice my opinions and give people some food for thought. My feelings are, it would be alot easier for randy to stick with reg. stock cull hard, wear out some pick-ups,make long distance phone calls and spend several thousand dollars than it would to breed up cross breds and hope to find a super star that reproduces.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 2410

Well , "yall" aint got no Walkers or crosses .... if I do a cross , it will be another jag/hound cross and just for skunk /diller dogs , lol .

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Registered: Sep 2008
Location: illinois
Posts: 540

Son, you aint gotta cross breed to get skunk and diller dogs, plenty of them in the reg. stock. lol.

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Registered: Dec 2007
Location: Waynesburg, KY
Posts: 295

LOL!!!

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Registered: Oct 2008
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Posts: 368

quote:

---

Originally posted by brogy
I'll be the first to tell you, a good share of the walkers I've hunted with have been complete junk. With that, I'd tell you some the better off breeds I've seen wouldn't even be average if they were walkers.
When you're used to hunting a Walker dog you tend to carry a different measuring stick. Sometimes thats good, sometimes its not so good.

---

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Registered: Oct 2008
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Posts: 368

quote:

---

Originally posted by brogy
I'll be the first to tell you, a good share of the walkers I've hunted with have been complete junk. With that, I'd tell you some the better off breeds I've seen wouldn't even be average if they were walkers.
When you're used to hunting a Walker dog you tend to carry a different measuring stick. Sometimes thats good, sometimes its not so good.

---

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No problem Jesse. I'll try to clarify. I know I don't make a lot of sense, when I made this post I was stuck in the house bored out of my mind, I still am.

1) "Off-breed", is basically anything other than a Walker. I used "---" because thats how I've heard the term used.
2) I hate a tri-colored dog. Boring as heck. Give me brindle, blue, polka dotted. I guess thats why I like the black & white Clover dogs, or even the Preacher colored dogs. Something a little different. I'm not saying that they're aren't good dogs in all breeds, I'm just saying with some... it can be a real challenge when you're limited to how many dogs you can feed and our location.
3) It just does and I'm going to refrain from commenting further for the sake of not offending so many. I'm just saying, there are plenty of young dogs I've messed with that had it been a Walker it would be a cull, but because they were something other than they were not. I think the expectations are a bit different among breeds. I know I'll catch heck for that.
Some of the better dogs among the other breeds around here, I wouldn't feed. That doesn't mean I don't think they are coondogs, it just means they wouldn't suit me.
4) I think others are considered "offbreeds" simply becaus the Walkers outnumber them in everything. I didn't make the term up, just how I've heard it used.
5) That should say something. Dogs are dogs. There are good ones in all breeds. Just because its a Walker doesn't make it better than something else. But if I were start from scratch and could only keep 1 dog at the house, and was only given 5 attempts to find a keeper, I think I could find a keeper faster by trying Walkers than some other breed.

Jesse, I made this post out of complete boredom. I've been intrigued by the WalCur crosses.
I drive around SE MN and see tons of nice hunting ground I wouldn't cut a hound in, but someone could tree some coons in there with closer hunting or better handling dog (not saying a hound wouldn't fit the bill either).
I can't figure out why we are breeding dogs that "go-yonder" or dogs that are known for leaving on junk and switching over. Maybe in the south were coons are scarce I can see but up here? How much hunting freedom will we have in 15 years when all our hounds are bred to go a mile before they begin hunting and are constantly getting treed in all the developments and private ground closed to hunting. I'm thinking some of these folks breeding the crossbreeds might be ahead of us in a few years.
I wouldn't trade the hounds I'm feeding for anything else I've seen in the hunts around here, I'm sure you feel the same.
This is just me daydreaming out loud.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 6544

Brogy's new book, "How to Win Friends & Influence Others in the Off Breeds".lol

Do you have access to any old Full Cry Magazines? There was a guy who wrote in there Richard McDuffie. He did try an experiment on the order of your day dreaming by crossing two cur breeds. I think the new breed he made was called Camus curs. I think if ya could get some of those articles you would enjoy them.

I surely understand about cabin fever! We had 2 decent days and wham it is cold again. Weather man says it is going to get warmer for the weekend. I can't wait!

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Registered: Sep 2008
Location: illinois
Posts: 540

Larry your right. Mr. McDuffie bred canadian, mexican and U.S. curs together thus the name camus. No real need for them I guess just a fun experiment. Notice theres alot of em today ?!? lol. Any ways, at least the man was smart enough to not try to single reg. them in with his leapoard curs, or the hound breeds.

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