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I personally, have interpreted this rule as Clay and Elvis have. I have hunted with Clay once or twice. I would like to say he is a master of hounds, and has been for a while. I'm sure Allen with the UKC would agree wth Clay's interpratation as well. Only one way to find out though. CALL ALLEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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quote:

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Originally posted by harper english
Clay what have you won this is a list of what i have won and im only 22.
1 2008 fall baby stakes champ
2 2008 pkc ga state reserve champion
3 2008 il state final 4
4 2007 5th il state race
5 2007 top 16 ga state race
and too many open events and ukc hunts to list

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Originally posted by Ben Crocker
I'd love to draw you a few times. Your short fuse and temper would bring me laughter all night. You won't walk to any tree my dog isn't on untell your 5 is up, cause every step you take I'll be that dude in the back yelling, "hey judge could you stop for I can listen for my dog in there". When your 5 is up we can run to your tree, untell then, we'll give mine more time to get split somewhere deep. I know the game very well also.

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im trying to figure out why any judge would let a guy keep the cast from trying to be at the tree when the 5 minutes is up.
Its pretty elementary. You proceed toward the tree, stopping along the way to see if anyone else wants to tree their dog or not. For someone to force the cast to wait 5 minutes before heading in the direction of the tree, in my opinion is not within the rules and only a weak or incompetant judge would allow it. If anyone threw a fit about it he could go get his dog and go to the truck.

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Originally posted by Josh Farnsworth
Ben,

In a two dog cast, you're either first or worst. Are you saying that your hound is not cabable of a first strike? By the way rules are currently written, stalling to get your dog on the wood, is a scratchable offence. Keep in mind UKC rules are not the same as PKC rules. I do see where you have a $3000. PKC winner. That is great news. I'm not sure that a last stike dog will win on a regular basis in UKC hunts. The PKC is lucky to have you, and your hound.

Regards,
Josh

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Originally posted by Ben Crocker
What in the world are you talking about??? How is listening for my dog stalling. If listening for my dog within the 5 minutes was scratchable then the trees should be closed as soon as someone trees their dog. And that would be fine with me as well.

And your also lost and wrong on the last strike dog not being able to win in UKC...lol I personally have not owned a real tight mouth hound, but have been beat by many. Mostly in UKC where they get the extra 25 on tree.

ps. I'll change my signature for you.

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Last edited by Josh Farnsworth on 12-11-2008 at 08:45 PM

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Mr Farnsworth if im not mistaken the original question was what happens to the dogs strike when shutout and he was at dog As tree really nothing to do with where the cast was in the woods.as far as knowing the rules pkc and ukc are not that different anyone that can read can figure it out and considering im only 22 a 2 yr resume is about all that im gonna have considering i just got in the competition scene hard 3 yrs ago

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Originally posted by elvis
im trying to figure out why any judge would let a guy keep the cast from trying to be at the tree when the 5 minutes is up.
Its pretty elementary. You proceed toward the tree, stopping along the way to see if anyone else wants to tree their dog or not. For someone to force the cast to wait 5 minutes before heading in the direction of the tree, in my opinion is not within the rules and only a weak or incompetant judge would allow it. If anyone threw a fit about it he could go get his dog and go to the truck.

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Last edited by Ben Crocker on 12-11-2008 at 12:13 AM

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Originally posted by Josh Farnsworth


Rule states "If handlers are so far from tree that it will take more than five minutes to get to tree, they are to start walking toward tree, but stopping all along to let other handlers see if their dog is treeing. Judge is not to let any
handler keep holding him away from tree just to let dog get to tree after five minutes are up."

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Originally posted by Josh Farnsworth
I think the above post by Elvis says it all.

Ben, your original post said, and I quote "You won't walk to any tree my dog isn't on untell your 5 is up, cause every step you take I'll be that dude in the back yelling, "hey judge could you stop for I can listen for my dog in there". When your 5 is up we can run to your tree, untell then, we'll give mine more time to get split somewhere deep."

Rule states "If handlers are so far from tree that it will take more than five minutes to get to tree, they are to start walking toward tree, but stopping all along to let other handlers see if their dog is treeing. Judge is not to let any
handler keep holding him away from tree just to let dog get to tree after five minutes are up."

I think you original post says it all.

Now as far as the tight mouthed thing. In the first post you said basically that your dog would not get a first strike. Now you say, and I quote your words Ben "I personally have not owned a real tight mouth hound, but have been beat by many. Mostly in UKC where they get the extra 25 on tree." I think we can all agree that you have just implied that your hounds rarely get first tree as well. So, to keep it all straight, your hounds don't get first strike, they don't get first tree, and you yourself have indicated that you would stall the cast in hopes that your hound will as you have stated "give mine more time to get split somewhere deep."
Ben,

Thank you for clearing these things up for all of us. I always appriciate it more, when gentlemen like yourself clear things up for me. It makes the day go by much faster. It leaves a lot of the second guessing out of things. Hope all goes well for you.

Regards,
Josh

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Originally posted by Josh Farnsworth
So are you saying you're running mediocure hounds? Now that you have changed your signature, I can see when you're involved, there has been some shananigans on more than one occasion.

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Originally posted by Ben Crocker
Went over this at a state hunt a few years back Elvis. I was the one wanting to proceed to the tree while the 5 was working. Judge said you must stop "AT ANYTIME" a handler wants to stop and listen for his/her dog during the five. Not at the judge's descreption. After the hunt I asked the MOH about the situation and he said the judge handled it correctly. If you still don't agree I'll let you know who the MOH was.

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Originally posted by elvis
I think it boils down to a good judge knowing when a guy really is needing to listen to make a call or if he is just holding up the cast.
Its not a difficult judgement.

If a guy wants to stop along the way and listen, thats fine. We will stop long enough for him to make a call or noncall and then we are gonna tighten up some more and then we will listen again for a bit. This will continue untill 30 seconds are left on this tree and then we will stop and listen the last 30. Tree is closed and we are much closer to the tree and the rules than had we stood back there the full 5 minutes.

If a MOH told you a handler has the right to keep a cast from advanceing toward and trying to be at the tree in 5 minutes if possible,within reason, then yes I believe the MOH was dead wrong.

As you well know, PKC and AKC differ a bit in the fact that they have the tree countdown and I cant quote you a rule, but it seems to be a rule of thumb not to advance towards the tree untill 3rd tree is dead.

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Originally posted by Ben Crocker
So its a judgement call on how long I can listen for my hound when I ask the cast to stop and listen. Must be in the advisor. I don't have one of those.

ps. Do you still hunt Joplin Marv? Would like to come down for a hunt this spring with her.

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Originally posted by Ben Crocker
I'd love to draw you a few times. Your short fuse and temper would bring me laughter all night.

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Last edited by Josh Farnsworth on 12-11-2008 at 10:03 PM

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Originally posted by nighthunter88
With regards to the new rule 4 (k) - What happens on a 2 dog cast, if dog A is struck and treed and the 5 min. is up and then before u start to dog A, u hear dog B treed in the same location of dog A. BUT the handler for dog B does not call his dog treed, only struck......and it will only take 3 min to walk to the tree. What will happen to dog B and he is at the same tree as dog A?

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First, the new rule, 4(k) would not come into play in this situation due to the fact that the dog was not "declared" treed.

If dog B is found to be on the same tree treeing with dog A when the judge arrives then Rule 4(g) might apply. First, the tree would need to be scored to determine whether or not 4(g) applies. If the tree is scored as empty or slick or if offgame is found but no coon seen then award next available tree points and minus them in accordance with 4(g). If a coon was seen or even if the tree was circled the dogs strike points are deleted per 5(g) as it takes precedence over any other rule when a dog is shutout on strike.

I see where there's also been some discussion on time used going to dogs declared treed. In a few cases it even gets a little heated. This might be a good topic to include in a future Advisor article in the magazine. I would have to agree with elvis in that the judge should be in control of the situation. I could copy his response for the most part and publish it as the correct way to handle such a situation when judging. Sorry Ben but as a judge I would never entertain the idea of stopping the cast each time the judge starts towards the dog(s) declared treed. I would, however, give you plenty of opportunity to listen for your dog along the way. Like elvis said, a good judge will know if an individual is trying to hold up the cast and WILL NOT ALLOW IT.

As the rules state, you should try to be at the tree within the five minutes whenever possible. Situations where it might not be possible, or in close proximity thereof, would be when the cast is further then five minutes away. The rule is simply interpreted in that the dog is required to hold the tree for five minutes and not more than that if at all possible. Again, the only time a dog(s) should be declared treed for more than five minutes is in those situations where the dog is more than five minutes away from the cast when it was declared treed. Of course, as a courtesy, the judge should stop along the way to allow Ben to listen for his dog.

Sorry Ben. You opened the door and I couldn't resist. And it was all in good fun.

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I tell you what I would give anything for the ones on here that think you can get to a tree in 5 min. to come bring your dog and lets get it!!!!!!!!!!!! I bet you and your get treed within site dogs will both get yalls precious know it all little feelings hurt. I try not to get mad but this beats all I seen; a fellow hunter ask for a little guidance and all the chiefs want to start yacking instead of helping. I would get barred from ukc if I drew any of the smart butts on here (some replies are ok, but a few want to act like they own ukc ) I hope you find your answer nighthunter I would try to help you but I am to dang MAD!!!!!!!! right now over SOME of these replies. All of you SPOILED HUNTERS need to come down here to south MISSISSIPPI where the woods are so dang thick you can barely get to a dog treed much less walk to him in 5 mins. I would hunt in shorts and flip flops if we could walk to a tree in 5 mins. I don't care if he sounds close or if he is a mile. Point is you all should lets try to help each other instead of kicking a man down and talking bad about his dogs. For those of you that said good things , thank you we need more like US!!!!!!!

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Thanks for clearing things up.......Allen
&
Thanks for the support......MJL/MJL......I got my answer

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Last edited by nighthunter88 on 12-11-2008 at 11:27 PM

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So if I ask to stop a short moment to listen to/for my dog and the judge dont think the cast should stop with the 5 running, he can make the cast keep walking without stopping?? Thats rediculous! If the 5 is still running, the other 3 cast members have a chance to get treed in on that same tree. Theres not a judge in the world thats gonna keep me from stopping to see if my dog is at that tree or not!! He better not be, but thats irrelevant. If the 5 is up, I can understand that a little better. But still if my dog is running with another dog lets say way left handed of where dog A is treed, I still got the right to stop to see if my dog is treed yet or not. I definitely aint gonna let the dog mines running with get treed in before mine just because a hunting judge wont "allow" me to stop and listen.

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Originally posted by elvis
Dont know if its in the advisor or not, ive never seen one.

I hunted Janice last nite for the first time since she came off her pups. Turned her twice, treed one coon and a slick.

Your welcome to come anytime.

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Originally posted by Allen / UKC
First, the new rule, 4(k) would not come into play in this situation due to the fact that the dog was not "declared" treed.

I see where there's also been some discussion on time used going to dogs declared treed. In a few cases it even gets a little heated. This might be a good topic to include in a future Advisor article in the magazine. I would have to agree with elvis in that the judge should be in control of the situation. I could copy his response for the most part and publish it as the correct way to handle such a situation when judging. Sorry Ben but as a judge I would never entertain the idea of stopping the cast each time the judge starts towards the dog(s) declared treed. I would, however, give you plenty of opportunity to listen for your dog along the way. Like elvis said, a good judge will know if an individual is trying to hold up the cast and WILL NOT ALLOW IT.

As the rules state, you should try to be at the tree within the five minutes whenever possible. Situations where it might not be possible, or in close proximity thereof, would be when the cast is further then five minutes away. The rule is simply interpreted in that the dog is required to hold the tree for five minutes and not more than that if at all possible. Again, the only time a dog(s) should be declared treed for more than five minutes is in those situations where the dog is more than five minutes away from the cast when it was declared treed. Of course, as a courtesy, the judge should stop along the way to allow Ben to listen for his dog.

Sorry Ben. You opened the door and I couldn't resist. And it was all in good fun.

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All of this is in good fun But Allen, all your doing is picking sides here. The rule is not clear, it doesn't say it's a judgement call on how long a handler has to listen for his dog during that 5. And thats why this would never be solved at hunts, cause like someone mentioned earlier. 7 out of 10 MOH would give you a different answer. Most of the MOH around here judge a question word for word on how the rule is wrote. And if your good at presenting your "story" you will win 90% of your questions. Seen it happen numerous times. On a side note, before you all start judging me without knowing me.... I have been in hundreds of cast in my short life and have never once took a question back to the club and only (ONCE) did I go back to the club with a question against me, and yes I won that question. I like stirring the pot via this board, don't be so quick to judge folks... like I said.. its all in good fun.

Allen,
Some rules are black and white, other rules as we all know can be twisted and turrned and have discussions like this one here. It all boils down to what that MOH would read into it. Before I type this I want you to know that I hunt UKC, PKC, and AKC hunts regular. I enjoy all 3 and am thankful for each. On the other hand, I think PKC and AKC have one thing that UKC should look into. Do away with MOH... Hastle to a lot of local clubs getting one person to come and sit around for 5-6 hours for very little pay. Why not just have a hunt director, take entries, draw cards, read the yellow paper before sending hunters out. Make the trip worth his while, let him go hunt..., any question brought back should be handled by a panel. Your more apt to have the question handled proper with four heads working on it rather than one. JMO Happy Holidays to the UKC staff, keep up the good work!

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Originally posted by gfults
So if I ask to stop a short moment to listen to/for my dog and the judge dont think the cast should stop with the 5 running, he can make the cast keep walking without stopping?? Thats rediculous! If the 5 is still running, the other 3 cast members have a chance to get treed in on that same tree. Theres not a judge in the world thats gonna keep me from stopping to see if my dog is at that tree or not!! He better not be, but thats irrelevant. If the 5 is up, I can understand that a little better. But still if my dog is running with another dog lets say way left handed of where dog A is treed, I still got the right to stop to see if my dog is treed yet or not. I definitely aint gonna let the dog mines running with get treed in before mine just because a hunting judge wont "allow" me to stop and listen.

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Originally posted by Josh Farnsworth
Ben,

I will just stop now. I never had intentions to try to make an enemy. In fact, I'd like your phone # PM'ed to me if at all possible. I figured when you finally blew your top, I would requote the above post. My main point was that even though most of us on here, know a few people personally, I would would say the majority don't know everyone. I personally know Clay. He is as honest a man as you can find. He would much rather loose honestly, than to win with a little shananigans. I don't think he has the "short fuse and temper" that you think he has. He is very passionate about the hunts going as the rules are written. Like myself, it amazes him, how many contestants there are in the night hunts, that have different ideas of what the rules are supposed to be. The sad part is, if you took 10 master of hounds, you would most likely have at least 7 different rulings on the same infraction. That to me is sad. Allen with UKC would have a full time job just answering questions about scenerio hunting if that is all he did. He has other items to tend to. I can't blame him for letting some of the posts go officially unanswered. There simply is just not enough hours in the day to address it all. Like I stated in the beginning, I think Elvis has hit it right on the head. When we are in the woods, you know if someone is playing games, or if they genuinely need to stop before proceeding any further. What is really sad, is the original question was answered correctly very early on. Above that, Clay was trying to help a newer hunter out, so that he may have knowledge of what the rule is. Then everyone jumps on him for basically being correct. That does not make very much sense to me. Hope it all goes in a better direction from here.

Regards,
Josh Farnsworth

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PAY???????????????????

I am supposed to get paid??????????????

LOL

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Thank you Ben. As I stated, I don't know you from Adam. I don't know your hounds. I'd have to believe that you are an honest man, until you proved differently. I will contact you tonight. I was simply using your post as an example. I meant nothing personal by it. I'm sure you're packing a coon dog. I am also glad that Allen cleared this particular item up for those who have read the post. As far as the "grey" area in the rules, I think they get it from the state DNR's. LOL!!!!!!!!!!! It allows for more contreversy, which eventually turns into revenue. JMO.

Regards,
Josh

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