Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Wise County VA
Posts: 39

quote:

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Originally posted by HOBO
Sorry but that link was to the old board and it doesn't work any longer.Who are you by the way LNSM PINE KNNLS?

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Weyers Cave Va
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LOL Wes...I grew up in Pound and played football and ran track for the Wildcats....I know allllllllllllll about the Lonesome Pine District..I just figured you might be someone I knew.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 698

That's like asking why does the earth turn? Nobody knows what makes a dog produce well, it is just the way he puts traits into his pups. I guess he just matched well with most females that was bred to him and the genes were stacked.

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A LOT MORE TRACK AND A LITTLE LESS TREE. HE CAN'T TREE A COON THAT HE CAN'T SMELL

BE REMEMBERED FOR THE HOUND YOU WERE PACKING, NOT THE HANDLING YOU DID.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 698

quote:

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Originally posted by wkfii
John, Lipper blood? Don't think so. One way to produce good dogs is to breed only good or great hounds to hounds of equal or greater ability. The other way is to line breed a blood line that is good or great. The third way is to line breed and periodically bring in blood that is of equal or greater ability. I have a little gyp who is Sackett, Jr. on top and Boone on bottom. Her House's blood comes from Deanwood Drifter- not Lipper. She is turning into a fine little hound. I think that House blood is favored with Boone blood because quite frankly it improves the voice. For my gyp it did not help. LOL I know of a Sackett/ Red Eagle Dick cross that did quite well.

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PKC Ch Nite Ch Ch 'PR' Hardwood Swamp Snake
Nite Ch 'PR' Hardtime Hummer
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'PR' Van's Hard Knockin' Lil' Hayes

A LOT MORE TRACK AND A LITTLE LESS TREE. HE CAN'T TREE A COON THAT HE CAN'T SMELL

BE REMEMBERED FOR THE HOUND YOU WERE PACKING, NOT THE HANDLING YOU DID.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: AUBURN, IN.
Posts: 1706

i think you all are for getting about the FEMALE in the breeding ---the old QUEEN had good pups out of all the studs she was breed to ----not take anything from old JAY there was some good females breed to him --- i was one of the lucky one's to get a well breed pup out of jay and roxie ---GR. NT. WLD CH. ACHA--CHEEK'S STYLISH HACK ---- HE WILL BE 8 YRS OLD MAY 20

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Hillsboro,ohio
Posts: 936

I think that if, some of other breeds, use good solid hounds, that go back, to at least 6 generations of good solid hounds. That is hounds, that will strick, trail up their own coons and tree, stay put under pressure. As many different bloodlines, of solid hounds, in the 6 generations, then you might come up, with that rare reproducer. I think it can be done, it just takes good judgement, and good females. Females as good as, or better than the males.

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location:
Posts: 281

AMEN! He reproduced great because of all them Lipper gyps he covered. Same with Nailor. If the almighty had all that sackett blood to cross on then his numbers would be out the roof!


HAIL LIPPER!!!!!!!!!!!! WITHOUT OUT LIPPER THERE WOULD ONLY BE PRETTY BLUETICKS THAT PEOPLE CALL WALKERS.

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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: Nicholasville, KY
Posts: 871

He reproduced well because he had the traits to pass on. He was very consistant across the board. I can very easily look at a hound and know that has Jr blood in him. He was a superior animal, not a freak, as some would say. What we don't know is how his littermates did or what they are doing now, or if they produced anything. Nor does it matter at this point. I have been fortunte enough to attend college and take and Animal Breeding course ( selection, genetics, heterosis, mating systems ) I feel very comfident that I can produce a line of hounds that have superior qualities that are consistant. I'm going to start with a hound off Cord, which is off Son, which is off Jr. That his bottom is a female off Tell, which is off Jr. Genetics alone, this animal shares 12% of his traits with JR. And since he his linebred will be more consistant than his parents in matings. In the end you breed the best to the best and cull the rest.

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location:
Posts: 281

there has been linebred jr dogs before. What makes the line you would like to start different? I am asking so you will educate me on the logic, not to be a naysayer.

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Lipper is to coonhunting what the Rose bowl is to football, THE GRANDADDY OF THEM ALL!

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Los Angeles, MN
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Tailkicker,

Make sure you take your books and pedigrees with you when you take your "superior" hounds to the woods.....

Your going to need them....

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: AUBURN, IN.
Posts: 1706

DR. RICHARD GRILL -- ALSO TOLD ME ONE TIME HE COULD BREED DOGS AND GET ANYTHING HE WANTED --COLOR --SIZE ETC.-- BUT HE ALSO SAID HE HASN'T BEEN ABLE TO GET BRAINS IN THEM EVERYTIME

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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: Nicholasville, KY
Posts: 871

I do believe that Jr was a superior reproducer and was able to give his offspring the same genetic material he had, at a very high hereditary %. I never said my line would be different, if it would turn out to be a little different, a little better, that would be nice. But I'm not out to produce a different line so to speak. Mr Giddings did a great job in producing a very productive hound. I just want to take the traits that JR had and make them even more consistant. As the others should of been. From what I seen out of JR hounds they were very consistant. This tells me that JR had a high percentage of genetic material that was homozygous. Means he got the same gene from his mama and his papa. And passed them on to his offspring. But as we look at pups that are three or four generations down from Jr, the consistancy is gone. Rat Attack pups are not like Cord pups. Seth pups are not like Stone pups. My pup is line bred and is a very very natural coondog. Not trashy, not mean, very intelligent, good color and so on, but his ears ain't long enough. other than that, he's stud material, and he's only 12 mths old. His genetics alone should be 12 % identical to JR's, it could be higher, it could be less. So i would take a female that is also from a very consistant litter of Double Jr line breeding and breed her to my boy here, and have pups that are more consistant than my boy here. Now if there are no physical defects with these hounds, and they are consistant and have the qualities that I want to pursue in my line than I can just breed some females back to my stud and maybe a male pup back to my bitch. Of course there are several possible breeding schemes that can be utilized but the basic priniciple is to only breed back dogs out of your own stock and never breed out again. Most people won't stay with there line, they breed out and thats where it ends. This scheme alone would take 10 years to get the consistancy that I want, or longer.

Here is something that has always been somethign I wanted to try in livestock and coonhounds. I was at Pioneer seed plant in Iowa. They took two different plants and inbred those plants 7 generations. What the product was after 7 generations was a 2 inch ear of corn that had one or two kernals on it. the effects of inbreeding depression. For the 8 generation they took those two lines of corn and bred them together, producing a monster ear corn, 15 inches long and covered with very nice kernals. with all that in mind, take two lines of hounds homogenize them not to the point of inbreeding defects, but enough to have some consistancy generation after generation.Breed those two together, you get HYBRID VIGOR., or heterosis. Its the same idea as a cattle operation that breeds angus to herfords and so on. two very different lines that are brought back together. Probably the same reason some crossbred hounds turn out so well. Heterosis only works if the genetics are extremely diverse, only works for non-additve gene action, and it has a greater impact on traits that have lower heritability.

Might not be explaining this well, theres a lot of information that I have, and trying to explain how I'm going to use it to produce a consistant line of dogs might take awhile. My pup may never be a Sackett Jr. But I hope to use him to produce a Jr. My goal is to produce a line of hounds that are consistant from one generation to next, the sixth generation should look and act like the first generation. Like angus cattle; Black, polled and marbled, generation after generation.

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location:
Posts: 281

Now let me ask you this. How do you get around some of the faults that Jr blood has. Don't get me wrong, I am advocate for Jr blood. Alot of JR blood reproduces weak mouths, and sometimes laziness. Why would you continue to linebreed on one strain.

There has been more than one dominating, superior stud that has come out of the Walker breed, so why concentrate on one?

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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: Nicholasville, KY
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Well, say we go back to the ear corn, you could basically do the line breeding with several studs. I just persanally like this hound. We had a female that was both a weak mouth,and could be a lazy coonhound off of Jr. But she got the work done. I'm still selecting for the traits that those hounds express. I'm line breeding but I'm using Positive and Negative assortive mating, mating for likes and dislikes. Here something that alot of people don't know. You can very easily test for faults. If you took a stud and bred him to his daughters, and had 35 offspring you have a 99% chance of finding a defect. If you were only looking for a 95% chance then you would only need 27 pups. With that in mind say I breed my stud and get several females off of him, they don't have to be out of diffrent females either, because we're testing him. You get three litters off of him and a bad trait shows up. I would probably rethink my crossing on this dog. breed the bad trait out and then start again. My stud here might not have those faults, or he could be loaded with them, but he doesn't express them.

house Blood, yadkin river, Bozo, Boone, Drifter. etc etc. If you like these styles of hunting dogs, then concentrate on them. The reason you only concentrate on one is to get consistancy. Sure you can mix and match till you to get the style of coonhound that suits you. So you get YOUR perfect hound, I would want to make sure I get something like him again. Linebreeding comes in to play, to make your breeding consistant again.

We have a linebred female here, she has lipper in her 3 times in 4 generations. We have my pup here. Very different pedigrees. We plan on breeding these two. Why, would I do that, I'm sitting here telling everyone to linebreed to get consistant hounds. Both are very loud, both are very smart. Both have the quality of hunting that we like. So we go back to mating for likes and dislikes. You look at a cow herd and realize that they are all diffrent colors. You sell them to Rusty's steak house and look at there carcass and realize you can't tell one from the other. Someone paid more attention to the quailty of beef that the breeding stock was producing and bred for those traits and the rest of genes fell in there some where. That is positive assortive mating. You make a couple traits Homologous, and don't really stress on the traits that don't bring the money.

Going back to the cross between this Lipper female and my Jr pup. They may have similar traits, we know what we see. There may also be enough diversity in there to create the phenomenom, Hybrid vigor. You can't breed consistant heterozygosity though, with out some type of rotation. But I'm not trying to create "super freak", I'm still trying to capitolize on the traits that I feel will mesh well together.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Hillsboro,ohio
Posts: 936

I don't think any of the experts has ever done a study on coon hounds. They've studied peas, cows and corn. WHICH NONE OF THEM, HAVE TO HAVE ANY BRAINS. It takes brains, to make a top hound, and more brains. I would rather take top hounds, from all breeds and breed, for what, you want to improve. If i have a world class track dog, that will stay treed, with dogs running, all around, him. I would breed to improve his mouth, or if, he's too mouthy, breed to a female, that's silent, but is more tree dog. I would breed, to improve, what i already have.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: AUBURN, IN.
Posts: 1706

dr richard grill --was a professor of genealogy-- any way he was a vet that study breeding of dogs -- thats what he always said --he could get brains --- size ---color--etc. he could get

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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: Hamilton Missouri
Posts: 709

I like your way of thinking--I also am doing the line breeding
on my Sackett jr hounds--I have a young female out of Gap that is out of a Sackett jr female--double Sac Jr bred--I have a young male out of That Son dog of Clay Scotts--I have a pup out of Jenkins' Rock River Rowdy--which is out of R R style--Rowdy is a Reproducer--- I have added my own little touch in the Trait sorting
and out crossed with my Very Very Smart Finley river Female--she is good all the way around but highlighted Brainy Traits--she is almost too smart. My hounds that I'm crossing will have the name,
Hillydale's Proud River Hounds---taking the 2 River lines and trait
sorting-- Alot of The Rock River and a touch Of my Finley River.
I know this isn't the first time these lines have been crossed, but
I am breeding to better the traits--and adding here and there will improve I hope.. I am getting a good outcome and get so excited with each litter.. you can look at most of my Hounds on that web page Hunt101.com under Hillydale.. thanks and God Bless
Darren Oldridge ( Hillydale Kennel )

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Independence, Kentucky
Posts: 1348

quote:

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Originally posted by John Vaught
Did not mean he had LIPPER BLOOD in him, but he was bred to a lot of females that were from LIPPER, and a lot of the more successful crosses were where LIPPER was either on the top breeding or the bottom side both seem to have worked well on him

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location:
Posts: 352

Tailkicker, I used to believe all that stuff I read about inbreeding and linebreeding too. After about 25 years of trying it I'm not so sure anymore.

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Crossville, TN
Posts: 158

I am also line breeding Jr. I just bred a Dauther of Jr's to my male which is a grand pup to Hammering Earl on top and Jr on bottom.
Jr will be in these pup's 2nd,3rd and 4th generation. Should be some nice ones.

My male is doubled on Jr and he is not lazy and is the loadest dog I have ever owned.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Los Angeles, MN
Posts: 4236

Not trying to pee in anyones Cheerios here, but why would you want to try to reproduce Jr.?

Comparing cattle and corn genetic improvement to coondogs is laughable.....Time is working against you, it takes 100 days to grow an ear of corn and you are working with stock that has been modified for hundreds of years to begin with.

If you do, by chance, live long enough to achieve your initial goal, the rest of the world will probably have passed you by.

The problem with breeding coondogs, like a lot of things in life, you are always shooting at a moving target.....

Jr was a great reproducer, but he died, time to move on ......IMO

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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: Nicholasville, KY
Posts: 871

Cattle and corn, it is all relevant in understanding genetics and heretability. Everything we know from genetics came from Mendal and his pea plants. Sure time is against us. But look at what Junior did in a short time. You took three or four dominant strains of walker Blood and bred them into one hound(junior). Some how or another He was a reproducing miracle. As much blood that was in him, his lined out right, and produced the the highest ratio of hounds with degrees to hounds produced. I don't care what he was bred to, look at the major studs right now being advertised, of any breed. Stylish Harry is a prime example, the dog has a $1000 dollar stud fee, I would hope only the best females are being bred to him, his % is not half of Juniors. I'm not looking to get another Junior, that would be impossible( cept for cloning), but that is a whole nother arguement. I just want to get some of that miracle he was. Junior is dead, good thing we don;t have any semen off of him, shame on that...hate to live in the past. look what they did with Rock. The hounds gentics was twenty years old and we brought right up to the modern time. It didn't really work. Look at the Lipper semen being used now. They have some nice hounds off of those crosses. Its all in how you use what you got. I dealt with a lot of numbers in my Animal Breeding course, and mathematics never lie. That why I feel line breeding is the best, if you know what your doing inbreeding and outcrossing can also be beneficial.

Why Junior though, why emphasize this one hound. Why not? We could very easily have the next great stud in someones kennel as we speak. We don't know.

Hey in the end I'm just some kid who believes in my hound, and his blood, has a little education, and some ideas. Just trying to breed a hound I enjoy being in the woods with. Oh and say you breed a hound when its a year old to produce your next line, to get to 7 generations,when the line bred hounds should be fairly homozygous, that would be about 12 years. so if I start now, I'll be 36, to have bred my 1st world champion. that ani't a long time.

How about these forums, why is Hardwood Henry and Slugger top coondogs. How are they going to reproduce. What is there impact going to be in the coonhound world. How about Jet. Time will only tell.

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Jeremiah CL Johnson
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Registered: Sep 2003
Location:
Posts: 5

Boys, I lead jay out of the woods several times. YES he was freak of nature. WHY do I think so well, jay was the only male, his litter mate sisters never repoduced at all. maybe one or two. but not at all like jay did. as far a frank goes why he did so well is this he never lied to a man about a dog, HE WAS NOT AFFRAID TO TURN HIM (jay) loose. un like most of the other breeders today. even when frank was offerd 50,000 for him at walkersdays he still turned him loose any time any where. I dont think any one will ever figure it out why jay reproduce so good but lets hope so.

as far as now you all sould look at cord. what i am seing so far is the same as jay pups if not a little betterones. IF YOU DO NOT BELEVE ME just get in your truck and go see cord and his pups!!!!I have vidieo of 9 pups out of 6 differant females all treeing there own coon.

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Registered: Sep 2003
Location:
Posts: 210

Scott,

Do you have Rob Giddings phone number? I need to reach him about a pup.

Thanks,

Elton

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 6544

Elton,

Rob's phone number is at their website:

http://www.rockriverkennels.com

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