Registered: Jun 2003
Location: North GA
Posts: 14388

Its like playing the lotto......Theirs always that chance you might pick the next great coondog AND its a very slim chance with BIG odds against ya!

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Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Georgia
Posts: 263

i believe that how a dog was trained and how the dog is taken care of can be very important to how the dog hunts.Also,the breed of the hound has alot to do with it.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 6544

Elvis,

You are very right. Great coon dogs are freaks of nature. On the other charge about trying to understand genetic, I am guilty as charged.

The thing is though I give Bill Hill more credit than I do myself. If Bill Hill is doing it right, I can almost guarantee you Mr. Hill can sit and tell me about his hounds. He can tell me about their good qualities and their holes. He can tell me about entire litters. He can tell me about grandfathers and grandmothers. He can tell me about failed crosses. Yes, I study genetics, but I also have been studying Mr. Hill. History, many Mr. Hills, and even scientific research tells me the greatest tool a breeder can have is family knowledge. The second greatest tool is the ability to choose properly matched individuals (selection).

Have I perfected these tools? Nope, I am still a student. Do I expect to raise a great coon hound? Heavens no. My goal is much more meager than breeding a great coon hound. I want to breed a consistant hound that I can be proud to own. So far, I haven't done too bad, but I am still striving to do even better.

On all other points, I agree with you 100%

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Larry Atherton

Aim small miss small

Last edited by Larry Atherton on 04-25-2008 at 12:29 AM

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Registered: Mar 2004
Location: Northwest Indiana
Posts: 1535

I think " great " is in the eye of the beholder so to speak...
What 1 person labels "great" may not suit another....
Some want a total loner, while others want a pack animal that beats everything else to the tree.

I have been with dogs people said were "the best winners" and "the best reproducers", and most didn`t live up to the hype.
In fact sometimes they weren`t any fun to hunt through the week!
What I admire in a hound, is intellegence.A dog that when there is a lot of chaos going on, the dog that figures things out and has the coon, to me that seperates them.That is 1 trait I think we should try to breed towards.

Good breeding makes for easy training!
I `ll bet the really " great ones" didn`t need much training, they probably taught their trainers a few things!

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Dog House
Posts: 4112

First of all let me say that I in no way meant to slam anyone that studies genetics,although after re-reading my post I can see how one that did could be a bit miffed.
What I was trying to say was no matter how much one knows about the subject, it apears to me that dumb luck plays the biggest part in produceing one of those "great dogs" that we all are looking for. Of course that is only my opinion.
I apoligize for stepping on anyones toes.

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Registered: Not Yet
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Well if dumb luck is the key, I should be winning all the time cause it don't get any dumber than my luck. Maybe I just need more of it.

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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: mid-michigan
Posts: 4437

Elvis ,
No need to apologize. I know two of those who study genetics , Larry and Joe. LOL
And one thing I know about the both of them , they both are smart enough to know you weren't slamming anybody.
We all know that if anyone could breed a great dog anytime they wanted , somebody would have done it before now. I know there are some guys who have had several generations of good dogs , But I haven't heard of any that have had several generations of great ones. I think it really don't matter who you talk to , a geneticist or Bill Hill up the road , they all would probably agree that a truely great one is a freak of nature.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 1333

I understood what you were getting at Elvis.You can take someone like Oakridge,or Atherton,who have dedicated a lot of time into studying genetics,and have spent countless hours studying pedigrees and researching traits of their dogs ancestors.
Or you can take Mr.Hill who has a 3rd grade education,he can barely read and write,lives in a old shack with no indoor plumbing,
and most importantly he aint got no computer.
He does understand dogs though,and he does have great knowledge of his dogs traits and their ancestors traits.

What it all boils down to,is with all our knowledge and access to pedigrees and genetic codes,and DNA,ect...
Our educated guesses are no more effective than Mr. Hills,lol.

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Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Marianna, Florida
Posts: 570

A great Competition dog for me would be having a dog that could consistantly win at home here in the South, and up North in patch woods with alot of coons.

I would like him to open as quick as he smells a track, can run a coon to catch, and can tree with anything. To be able to tree them quick pop up coons consistantly in places where +1000 or more usually takes place, and be a one bark tree dog.

I would like them also to get deep in thinner coons if needed and be alone his share of the time and have them coons.

Since I hardly ever go past Kentucky hunting, and we cannot score 1000 plus at any local hunt I go too, unless it is a freak accident, I will settle for a dog that will tree coons fast if packed up on feeders, but will be alone with a coon if had to hunt deep.

Since I don`t hunt feeders and most coons I get on run alot, and It takes going hunting hard sometimes to tree a coon, then I may never have that perfect combination North/South dog. Dogs that hunt where alot of coons are that don`t run far are tuned for that environment. Most dogs down here are tuned to knowing they could get on a coon that will run for over an hour, and it don`t matter how fast your dog is on track.

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Registered: May 2007
Location:
Posts: 187

I just want to say one thing, you know you have had that once in a life time dog when you repeatedly ask yourself when hunting other dogs "What would he or she do in this situation and you just know he or she would just tree the coon.

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Registered: Dec 2003
Location: kellogg mn
Posts: 845

So, is a freakishly good dog born that way, or is he just a good dog who would walk through fire to please his master? I don't comp hunt and avoid dogs that are comp bred cause they have too many holes to suit me, but the dogs I've owned that were special to me had a bond that can't be put in words. It's almost like they could read your mind and just did it on a consistant basis.

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Registered: May 2007
Location:
Posts: 187

Another way of knowing you've had that dog is by reading this thread and all you can think about is that old dog! Thanks Elvis for the simple reminder of how great "that dog was." The dog I'm reffering to is the one that all your friends want to hunt with. If they don't call you may want to evaluate your dog through thier eyes.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 2410

You get exactly what you breed for every single time .... the pups don't lie .

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: New Franklin, MO
Posts: 1182

Thanks Larry Poe for the good words on Ole Shaker. He was a natural from the first drop and never needed either end of training. I would feed a whole yard full of him.

I'm sure your standards and mine are not very different.lol I know I didn't look at the coon this last season I normally use to see. I will miss that dog for awhile I bet. I own one now that is pretty close to him and is just getting better by the night. SHe is all grand and all coondog and trust me I am not all out on the all grand pedigree but this little female is super nice.

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Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Al
Posts: 3069

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chris Sterrett
A great Competition dog for me would be having a dog that could consistantly win at home here in the South, and up North in patch woods with alot of coons.

I would like him to open as quick as he smells a track, can run a coon to catch, and can tree with anything. To be able to tree them quick pop up coons consistantly in places where +1000 or more usually takes place, and be a one bark tree dog.

I would like them also to get deep in thinner coons if needed and be alone his share of the time and have them coons.

Since I hardly ever go past Kentucky hunting, and we cannot score 1000 plus at any local hunt I go too, unless it is a freak accident, I will settle for a dog that will tree coons fast if packed up on feeders, but will be alone with a coon if had to hunt deep.

Since I don`t hunt feeders and most coons I get on run alot, and It takes going hunting hard sometimes to tree a coon, then I may never have that perfect combination North/South dog. Dogs that hunt where alot of coons are that don`t run far are tuned for that environment. Most dogs down here are tuned to knowing they could get on a coon that will run for over an hour, and it don`t matter how fast your dog is on track.

---

We need to get together and go Hunting some time

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Dog House
Posts: 4112

the best coondog ive ever been associated with wassnt trained to be special, he was born that way.

the same cross was made 4 times and we put the pups in good hands. most made decent coondogs but none were anywhere even in the same ballpark when it came to ability.

yes ,a good trainer seems to always have a good dog ,but when you come across one of those special ones, they ruin you for life.
and i dont think all the genetic research and training in the world can duplicate it.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Quitman, Ms.
Posts: 649

To me there is a difference in a great coondog, and a freak. I have only ever seen one freak, and I do not know how he did it but he would make coons. Died right after his second birthday, and he could make a great coondog look silly.

He wasn't trained, and he was trashy. Only seen him tree slick one time. He was a freak.

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Late Night Kennels

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 6544

Elvis,

My reply wasn't meant to be any more defensive than your post was meant to attack those individuals who study genetics. I should have used more general statements than I did to try to make my point.

I would have to admit 99% of the time I agree with your point of views, and I respect you more than you know. My reply was more in the defense of responsible breeding choices versus making crosses just to make crosses.

There is a one thing that people say about breeding coon hounds that concerns me. That phrase is breeding coon dogs is a crap shoot. Now, here is the funny part ... I agree with that statement. However, I am also afraid that can be interpreted as meaning if it is a crap shoot maybe I shouldn't worry about hunting with other dogs, making phone calls about other crosses. I worry that statement gives breeders an out to not be responsible in trying to make better crosses.

After I read your previous post, I was simply concerned about how it may be misinterpreted to give some people the idea that we have little or no control so what the heck let's breed ole ready to ole handy.

I don't think science will ever make it possible to reproduce a great dog, but I sure think it may help in raising the bar for more above average individuals.

Sorry, about the previous misconception.

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Larry Atherton

Aim small miss small

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Dog House
Posts: 4112

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jason Miller
To me there is a difference in a great coondog, and a freak. I have only ever seen one freak, and I do not know how he did it but he would make coons. Died right after his second birthday, and he could make a great coondog look silly.

He wasn't trained, and he was trashy. Only seen him tree slick one time. He was a freak.

---

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Quitman, Ms.
Posts: 649

Elvis,

In the last year. I have been with one that I would classify has great. There is no doubt that great ones are few and far between, but to me a great coondog can be trained and reproduced: a great coondog can be explained through genetics and training. There is someone that can explain to you why the dog does the things it does. I deffenitely agree that great coondogs can not normally be found on the classifieds.

A freak is just that: it is unexplainable, it is natural not trained, it does things its ancestors did not do. The breeder or the trainer can not say I am responsible for the things that dog does.

My point I guess is that greatness can be influenced by nuture. I firmly believe that you can train a great coondog with the right materials, but you have not control over a freak. We just hope we get a freak.

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Jason Miller
Late Night Kennels

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 1333

O.K, Jason Miller,if the great ones can be explained,then explain to me why you get a great one out of a litter,and the rest of the litter are duds.You make the cross two more times and never get another great one.
Explain to me why a couple of duds are bred and you get a whole litter of the best coon dogs you have ever seen.
Explain to me why you breed two great ones together and get a bunch of crappy trash runners.
It is easy to explain when it works,but it is sure hard to explain when it don't work,and you know it should have worked.
If you can't explain why it don't work then you will never truly understand why it did work.
And don't ask me why some crosses work and some don't 'cause I don't know either,lol!

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Quitman, Ms.
Posts: 649

When I say most of the great ones can be explained. I mean there are qualities about them that can be seen in their anscestors, or there are things the hound does that a trainer can say I really worked on that hound about that.

Success of a litter has to many variables, but what is strange to me is that there are some people that usually have pretty good dog on the end of their leash. Is it accident that the dog is there, or are these people just good at bringing the best in a dog.

Freaks it does not matter what is turning them loose. I think most of the great ones had someone behind them that made them great.

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Jason Miller
Late Night Kennels

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Lockridge Iowa
Posts: 2848

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jason Miller
If you hunt hard and train right. You will have way more than one great coondog at the end of your leash in a lifetime, but if the genetics are not there you will have a hard time of making a coondog.

---

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 6168

elvis,

Just want to weigh in here and let you know that I too understood your post, and no...I'm not miffed. Your right...I want a better dog, I always will until I get a perfect one, which I never will.....

If we broke dogs into more categories it might be easier to understand my views on breeding.

1. Freaks- I think we all agree that there is no explanation for these dogs that simply seem to appear at random. There is no way to plan for them, you can breed the heck out of em, and most of them cant even come close to being a reproducer. They "invent" coon, and need little or no formal training.

2. Great Ones - These are the dogs that consistently get the job done. They have abilities well above that of the average coon treeing dog. Most of the time they have one trait that makes them stand heads above the rest of the pack...again they may or may not be able to reproduce.

3. Coondogs - To me, this is the dog that most everyone that has tried to define "great" dogs on this post. They consistently, regardless of conditions, terrain, or location seem to have a coon treed. They have far more "good" nights than bad...These are the ones that sneak up on you...don't dazzle you, but you have to hunt with them for a week until you realize the dog is far above the average coon dog. This type in my experience is far more likely to be reproducible, and is more susceptible to good vs. bad training.

4. Average hound - This is the type of dog that most of us have at the end of our lead strap on any given night. If conditions favor that dog, they will look good, if the conditions are not suited to that dog...they may or may not look so good....this is the kind that we hear all kinds of excuses for....moon is too bright, too dry, too wet...etc. A few of these could bump up a class, in the right hands...if hunted religiously for night after night, with the right person at the other end of the lead. This is the type of dog that impresses folks "some times" enough to breed. Being "average" they are the easiest to reproduce. Breeding average to average, routinely gets you average, but every once in a while you will get above average....so this is where the "crap shoot" comes in.

I have an interest in genetics, and most of it is centered around how to breed for reproduction, not for making "better" dogs, but rather those that can reproduce, or as Larry put it "raise the bar".

Experience tells me that if you take an "average dog" and mate it to a coondog, then you will get a vast majority of "average" pups. If you breed a coondog to a coondog, you will get a majority of pups with above average abilities, and the rest is up to the trainer.

Once in a while, you will get a Freak...and we just can't explain that....

Oh...and Freaks are NEVER for sale on the message board, and coondogs are hardly ever for sale at all....

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Last edited by Oak Ridge on 04-25-2008 at 07:25 PM

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 1333

I consider myself a pretty good dog trainer and I believe I can explain how a good dog trainer usually has a pretty good one on the end of his leash.
Here is how I do it.
Step 1) Train a good one.
Step 2) Start another one while you are hunting the good one.
Step 3) Cull or sale the one you are starting,depending on ability.
Step 4) Keep repeating steps 2 and 3.Hopefully you will get another good one that suits you before the good one dies,lololol!

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