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Hey culler, your point about scratching for dragging feet is actually addressed also in th Advisor, page 49. It is interesting reading. Basicly, you cannot scratch a handler for refusing to shine the tree but you can scratch them for refusing to score the tree. Refusing to score would be not coming over to look when a cast member says something like "over here, I got him!" I have no doubt that if a judge or majority of the cast ruled that a handler intentionally dragged their feet in order to let the shine time expire before the coon could be scored, that handler could be scratched. Again, it is explained on page 49 in the Advisor.


I purty much give it up at 9:30 on the shinetime because at that point, you prolly don't have time to get them around to show the coon before the time expires. I have had it happened to me, it cost me a win and thats the way things shake out sometimes.

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then WHY didn't the Rule read, "YOU HAVE 10 MINUTES TO FIND & SCORE THE COON"?????????????? Instead the Rule states that you can demand 10 minutes to shine the tree. I'll say it again the coon WAS NOT FOUND AFTER THE 10 MINUTE SHINING TIME WAS UP, it was found within the 10 minute shining time.

I am also wondering just how this tree was scored, we know that it wasn't plused, but was it circled or was it minused??????

If this is the OFFICIAL INTERPRETATION OF THIS RULE, SOMEONE REALLY NEEDS TO LEARN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE & the meaning of different words much better than what I am seeing on this thread & in the 2007/2008 OFFICIAL UKC COONHOUND RULEBOOK.

I guess this RULING, only leaves me with this FEELING>>>>>>>> WOW

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Jim I understand your interpretation here... I am just really looking from the perspective that the handler saw the coon with 15 left, said he saw it and it was in plain view... whether the rest of the cast got there before the 10 or not. Heck, I think it was the end of the hunt? so they gave the dog the benefit of using + the 2hrs to find the coon, so why not give the handler and dog the benefit when he says he saw the coon and it was plainly there?!?

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Jims right...If I had been on this cast.I would have made every attempt to get over inthe 15sec and see the coon...If I did not get there.When the 10 min timer beeps.Tree is dead.Thats just how it is..Rule dont say 10min and 5 or 10 seconds.It says 10 min..

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There is nothing you do now or in the future that will change the outcome of that particular situation. Just be proud knowing that you had the better dog in the cast and you were the better sportsman. I have been in a lot of hunts were the better dog doesn't win and I hate it, but that is just the way it goes.

I am sure during you competition hunting you will again encounter things that make you scratch your head, but just continue to treat people the way you want to be treated and good things will come your way. I have made life long friends in coon hunting and none of them are worth losing over a trophy.

Take care

Tim

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quote:

---

Originally posted by JiM
Really Bill? When did they say that? If you have an Advisor book, it gives a direct answer to this question. The Advisor states on page 142 that " it is UKC's official interpretation that the coon must be seen by the majority of the cast within the allotted 10 minutes shining time"
That should put this one to rest but I'm sure it won't.

---

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This is strictly my opinion and thats all, Of all the trees iv been to I have never taken 10 minutes to look for a coon competition or pleasure hunting. There aint a tree out there that would take the whole 10 minutes to shine. As a handler I usually have a pretty good idea on weather im going to see a coon or not before i even start to shine the tree just based on what my dog is saying.

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sounds like you got beat fair & square..... that's the way it goes, U win some U loose some... next time U might have dog 'A' & the other guy have dog 'C'....
.....

quote:

---

Originally posted by coon dog junky if that is the case I guess It will take me 10 min. to look at there coon I walk real slow.....

---

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ten minutes to shine the tree.majority of cast must see the coon in the yen minutes. some people bend the rules to their favor.thats the way it is .but all hunters are not like that .thats why we all should be better sportmen a good honest judge is worth his or her weight on a hunt

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quote:

---

Originally posted by coon dog junky
if that is the case I guess It will take me 10 min. to look at there coon I walk real slow. The thing with this situation is they were only 20 feet from me flat ground nothing to climb over or anything but took them about 1 min to get to me

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but after reading some of the responses, especially the one by TRAVIS STIREK, it never ceases to amaze me how some people MIX & MATCH some of the Rules instead OF GOING BY WHAT EACH RULE SAYS IN PLAIN ENGLISH or as some say, IN BLACK & WHITE.

Travis & Bill193, what is the Rule number, that says "COON MUST BE SEEN BY THE MAJORITY OF THE CAST IN THE ALLOTTED 10 MINUTES SHINING TIME"?????????????????????? I see a Rule in the category under points will be plus "3 a (2)" that says "BY A MAJORITY OF THE CAST WHEN A HUNTING JUDGE IS USED. I also see a Rule "8 f" that states "If dog(s) declared treed, 10 minutes of hunting time may be demanded to search tree, or place of refuge,which is not a time out. No plus points will be awarded if coon is seen after 10 minutes shining time has elapsed.

In the orginal question on this thread, the coon was found within the allotted 10 minutes shining time, but the HUNTING JUDGE & OTHER CAST MEMBER TOOK A LUNCH BREAK, GETTING THE 20 FEET OVER TO THE GUY WHO FOUND THE COON IN UNDER 10 MINUTES.

The only place that you guys, remotely have an argument is in the last sentence of Rule "8 f" & if it was meant as you all say, it would have said " POINTS WILL NOT BE PLUSED, UNLESS COON IS SEEN BY THE MAJORITY OF THE CAST, WITHIN THE 10 MINUTES OF ALLOTTED SHINING TIME.

AGAIN, I SAY>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WOW.

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Last edited by John Wittenborn on 04-09-2008 at 01:23 PM

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John, if you don't believe the coon must be seen by the majority of the cast within the 10 minute shining time, then all I can say is call Todd or Allen and maybe you can bring yourself to believe them.
Have a good day.

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coon must be seen by MAJORITY OF THE CAST WITHIN THE 10 MINUTE SHINING TIME, but no one can, or has given me the Rule number that states this.

What you all are telling me, is that the book I have here that says on the front cover, 2007/2008 OFFICIAL UKC COONHOUND RULEBOOK, is really an UN-OFFICIAL RULEBOOK????????????????????

Maybe Todd or Allen will KNOW THAT RULE NUMBER????

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quote:

---

Originally posted by John Wittenborn


In the orginal question on this thread, the coon was found within the allotted 10 minutes shining time, but the HUNTING JUDGE & OTHER CAST MEMBER TOOK A LUNCH BREAK, GETTING THE 20 FEET OVER TO THE GUY WHO FOUND THE COON IN UNDER 10 MINUTES.

---

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Page 142, COONHOUND ADVISOR, "Please do me a favor and instruct those handlers that it is UKC's official interpretation of rules 3 (a) and 8 (f) that the coon must be seen by the MAJORITY of the cast within the allotted ten minutes of shining time."

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quote:

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Originally posted by 1939
Page 142, COONHOUND ADVISOR, "Please do me a favor and instruct those handlers that it is UKC's official interpretation of rules 3 (a) and 8 (f) that the coon must be seen by the MAJORITY of the cast within the allotted ten minutes of shining time."

---

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First of all, I do owe John an appology because I just told him that I've never had a call on this topic since I've been here and obviously that's not the case because as JiM pointed out, the situation in the Advisor on pages 141, 142 is this exact situation to a T. The truth is though, we get so few calls on this that I didn't remember getting one. Hey, that call was six years ago! I've had a few since then. lol

To myself and many others it is obvious with the way the rule is currently written that the coon must be seen by the majority of the cast withing the ten minutes. But I can respect the fact that it doesn't seem obvious to others. That's exactly why we have the Advisor and why it must be considered the official interpretation of UKC rules as pointed out in Rule 1. Sometimes it's necessary to go into greater detail to get everyone on the same plane. I won't argue that it could be made more clear for all with the wording John W suggests. To me it isn't necessary because it's clear the way it's written but maybe it would be more clear to all with a slight change.

But the official interp is that the coon must be seen by the majority of the cast within the ten minutes.

Like I told John W, you would be better off making the point that the cast did not make an honest attempt to score the tree after the coon was found. If they had time to do so and did not make the attemtp, they should be scratched for failing to participate. If you have a copy of the Advisor, read both interps, the one on page 141 and the one on page 49 and I'm sure you will have a much better understanding of this situation.

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I have found out that the printed Rules on the back of a scorecard & in the 2007/2008 OFFICIAL UKC COONHOUND RULEBOOK aren't worth the paper that they are printed on.

All OFFICIAL RULINGS in the ADVISOR are just someones INTERPRETATIONS (opinions) that outweigh what a Rule in the UKC OFFICIAL RULEBOOK says in PLAIN ENGLISH.

WOW, I'll need another pocket to carry the ADVISOR to the woods with me. LOL

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quote:

---

Originally posted by jculler8


Maybe a grace period should be put into the rulebook, stating, "if coon is seen by a cast member before the majority can arrive at the location before the 10 expires, a 1 minute grace period will be given once majority arrives. If no coon is seen by majority, tree points are minus."

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Jculler8, You quoted what I wrote, I took it word for word from the ADVISOR. This is not my rules, it's UKC rules. I never said I agreed with it. You don't know me so don't go telling me what I would do!

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Ok John, let me see if I can explain this with the rule book and nothing but the rulebook. We will forget the Advisor for a moment here.

Go look at rule 3(a). It explains that when hunting with a hunting judge, the rule requires a majority of the cast to see the coon in order to plus the tree. One handler cannot say "I got him" and plus it. If, on a 4 dog cast, two handlers said they see the coon plain as day and before one other handler can get there to see it, the coon climds into a den hole and is never seen again, the tree can't be plussed. I know you understand that, I am very sure you agree so far....right?
Rule 8(f) states that no plus points can be awarded if coon is seen after the 10 minute shining time elapses. Surely you can understand that one, right? And yes, I know you played football, I fully undestand that you took some hard knocks, you may be a little punchdrunk at this point in your life but it is perfectly obvious from all your posts that you are still, to this very day, a very intelligent person, no doubt far more articulate that I ever was or ever will be. So I am sure you can take 3(a) which states a majoruty must see the coon and then consider 8(f) which states the coon must be seen before the 10 minutes expires and make the obvious deduction that the COON MUST BE SEEN BY A MAJORITY OF THE CASY BEFORE THE 10 MINUTES EXPIRES IN ORDER TO PLUS THGE TREE!
If not , then I give up , you win, we are all fools for even hunting UKC. Again, have a wonderfull day.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by JiM
Ok John, let me see if I can explain this with the rule book and nothing but the rulebook. We will forget the Advisor for a moment here.

Go look at rule 3(a). It explains that when hunting with a hunting judge, the rule requires a majority of the cast to see the coon in order to plus the tree. One handler cannot say "I got him" and plus it. If, on a 4 dog cast, two handlers said they see the coon plain as day and before one other handler can get there to see it, the coon climds into a den hole and is never seen again, the tree can't be plussed. I know you understand that, I am very sure you agree so far....right?
Rule 8(f) states that no plus points can be awarded if coon is seen after the 10 minute shining time elapses. Surely you can understand that one, right? And yes, I know you played football, I fully undestand that you took some hard knocks, you may be a little punchdrunk at this point in your life but it is perfectly obvious from all your posts that you are still, to this very day, a very intelligent person, no doubt far more articulate that I ever was or ever will be. So I am sure you can take 3(a) which states a majoruty must see the coon and then consider 8(f) which states the coon must be seen before the 10 minutes expires and make the obvious deduction that the COON MUST BE SEEN BY A MAJORITY OF THE CASY BEFORE THE 10 MINUTES EXPIRES IN ORDER TO PLUS THGE TREE!
If not , then I give up , you win, we are all fools for even hunting UKC. Again, have a wonderfull day.

---

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What is DUH, a coon?

Last night wasn't my first competitive coon hunt, as I am sure it was not your first one either. I agree & understand everything that you said EXCEPT where you started with the OBVIOUS DEDUCTION part. See how easy it was for you to type, "COON MUST BE SEEN BY MAJORITY OF THE CAST, IN THE 10 MINUTE SHINE TIME TO BE PLUSED. All I have been trying to tell you is if this is what it meant, then why wasn't the Rule written that way? Instead you & others have had to MIX & MATCH different Rules & refer to INTERPRETATIONS (opinions) in the Advisor to make your point.

As for my OFFICIAL, UN-OFFICIAL RULEBOOK, it has been put in it's PROPER PLACE, right next to the CHARMIN ULTRA SOFT in the bathroom. LOL

I'm through kicking this dead mule.

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Registered: Mar 2007
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I now know the correct rule for this situation, don't know if I agree with it but will follow it. In Iowa there are some very deep ditches with cotton trees in them that can take longer to shine the whole tree then 10 min let alone have the majority of the cast see it in ten min. I guess 40 years of coon hunting I need to hunt a couple more nites to know when my dog has the meat.
Thank you for the help & GOD BLEESS

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Yea, some of us don't get to hunt in woods that are as open as a mowed park! Some places the green briars are like wadded up barb wire and cover acreas, throw in some black berry brambles, vines, gall berry and bay bushes, uneven footing, and etc. I can say from experence that many COON HUNTERS would quit before they hunted here. And I have good hunting ground compared to others!

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