Registered: Dec 2004
Location: beckley,wv
Posts: 85

i actually used to come run with a friend in carbon hill....yes..the canecutters run more like the snowshoe hare i have high in the mountains up here...very seldom get hunt them though...usually little hillbilly does that turn and twist a bunch.....but the snowshoes are a blast when i do get to run them. one interesting thing though is that i've had a few dogs that wouldn't run the snowshoes....would burn a cottontail up though...i always thought it was just a complete different scent????

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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: Pinson, Alabama
Posts: 59

Who did you hunt with at carbon Hill? I usually hunt near the Tennessee River bottoms and also close to Mississippi line.

Bev who started The American Beagler came down here and her dog wouldn't run a Canecutter. That happens. You're right, must smell different. Taste the same though!

We must have a dog that will reach out at water or it will do as I have seen many cottontail dogs do and turn round and round on the banks edge trying to follow the only track it can find. Seen whole packs head to head opening every breath tails in the air and spinning around in unison. Hung up!

Good dogs here must act like coon dogs and swim across and look on the other side.

Everyone likes the dogs best that do the best in their area.
That's why there will never be a breed standard that can work for and please all.

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Registered: Dec 2004
Location: beckley,wv
Posts: 85

the guy moved back up to NC a few years ago...his name was norman cunningham...he lived up here in wv for a long time and headed to carbon hill when he retired to raise and trial his beagles...his were a bit fast for most clubs down there , so he generally bred and trialed 2 seperate strains of dogs...he called his line the "Victorian" beagles. so if you happen to be looking at a pedigree someday and it would show a dog with the kennel sirname of victorian on it chances are it came from his stock. he always bred for a lot of hunt..so probably not a bad thing. i also used to buy beagles from Mel Stewart from Dora, AL and from Cliff Rankin from TN. those names will probably ring a bell for some reading this. Mel heads up AKC field trials these days and i would think most would recognize Cliff's name for winning the SPO nationals twice with Boy Howdy. back a few years ago Cliff ran a little stouter dog than he does now..such as when he was studding Scooter Grimshaw. but nonetheless.he keeps very nice dogs that are full of hunt and naturally straight for the most part. most of the dogs i own and hunt now have a good shot of dingus and indian hill major in them...still have a lil del ray stubby added in there for nose though...these are the bloodlines found running in the midwest for the most part, but my individual dogs are a half step too slow to trial out there, but exactly what i like to hunt with....so it works out good. i even bought a Scooter Grimshaw female from none other than Mr. Todd Kellam a few years ago...actually it was quite a few years ago now that i think about it.......please don't mention to Todd that he MIGHT be getting old.

Last edited by Bobby Davis on 06-22-2007 at 10:57 PM

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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: Pinson, Alabama
Posts: 59

Those lines you mentioned are sure popular here on cottontail.
Several beaglers near me that run cottontail have done well in trials. Especially SPO, UBGF and Brace.

I have a young female out of Skyview Cliff that I am sure proud of. She is AKC. OK, some are full beagle!!!lol His owner is Barney Barton in TN. He and his son-in-law have been down here to hunt. His dogs adjusted and did just fine. Cliff can run!!!

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Registered: Dec 2004
Location: beckley,wv
Posts: 85

sounds good...the pack i gun over now are all a little too stout for the UBGF but not quite as quick as the midwest..just what i like to gun over....about what runs in the northeast for AKC, and i feel would probably do pretty well in the Performance Pack in UKC or the Progressive Pack style trial in ARHA...hopefully i'll get the chance to watch/participate in some local PP trials if they start getting popular in WV. don't hear a terrible lot about them around here...more in ohio and illinois from what i can tell....they would give me an oppurtunity to stay more active in beagling during the summer months...so hopefully some of the WV clubs will start having them.

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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: Pinson, Alabama
Posts: 59

My sons and I run a pretty fast footed dog since they can really stretch out here.
We do hunt with friends that run slower footed and we just run theirs in the morning or afternoon and ours the other.
Some prefer the mornings, but others like afternoon as theirs cold trail early.

Ours are all fighting for the front as Like a movie I saw titled The Replacements famous line "When the game is on the line, a winner always want the ball"!

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Registered: Dec 2004
Location: beckley,wv
Posts: 85

sounds like your pack would do well in the "southern large pack" trials.

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Registered: Aug 2005
Location: LANCASTER, Kentucky
Posts: 26

GUYS, I'VE BEEN READING THIS POST & THOUGHT I'D PUT MY 2 CENTS WORTH IN. EVERYONE HAS THEIR OWN OPINIONS ON WHAT FORMAT OR REGISTERY TO RUN THEIR HOUNDS IN. I MYSELF TRIAL IN THE AKC (MID WEST) AS WELL AS THE UKC HUNTING BEAGLE FORMAT USING THE SAME HOUNDS FOR BOTH. I HAVE HAD A BLAST COMPETING IN BOTH. I HAVE ONE MALE WHO IS AN AKC FIELD WINNER & A UKC DUAL CHAMPION (HBCH GRCH). I HAVE A YOUNG MALE OUT OF THIS HOUND THAT HAS BEEN ENTERED IN MID WEST DERBY TRIALS & 2 UKC HB TRIALS.HE CURRENTLY IS IN 3RD PLACE FOR THE 2007 MID WEST 15" DERBY HIGH HOUND. HE ONLY NEEDS 20 PTS. TO MAKE HUNTING BEAGLE CHAMPION & HE WON'T TURN 2 UNTIL AUGUST. I THINK THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO REMEMBER IS TO HAVE FUN IN WHATEVER FORMAT YOU RUN AND DON'T KNOCK ANOTHER FORMAT UNTIL YOU TRY IT OUT. I THINK PEOPLE LOOK TO MUCH AT A HOUNDS SPEED, BUT I RUN A RUN TO CATCH STYLE HOUND THAT HAS GOOD & ACCURATE LINE CONTROL. WHEN MY HOUNDS GET A RABBIT UP I WANT THEM TO PUSH IT TO THE GUN AS FAST AS POSSIBLE. MY HOUNDS ARE AKC & UKC REGISTERED, BUT PAPERS DON'T MEAN S--T IF A HOUND CAN'T GET THE JOB DONE WHERE IT COUNTS THE MOST, UNDER THE GUN. DID YA EVER TRY TO EAT THE TROPHIES YOU BRING HOME? I'D LIKE TO HAVE A BIG OLE' BUNNY IN MY PLATE ANYTIME.

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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: Pinson, Alabama
Posts: 59

Good post Bluegrass Boy.
Speed isn't everything of course, but if you wanted to run with us and some of my friends on a regular basis and your dog was running behind all the time you might get the bug to get a little steppier dog. A dog running behind wil pick up and exhibit more bad habits than one that gets some front.
If yours were constantly leaving mine I know I would show up with a new face next time. No one wants to go to the dance and not hold a girl sometimes.

Bobby
Like Big Pack, would like to see more over my way. Got some of that blood from Larry Throwers dogs close by me.

Not knocking a registry, just giving a warning from an 'ol coot whose been there and knows it was, after all, the AKC, not UKC or NKC that changed a lot of good gun dog lines into walkie talkies. Heck, I'm proud of UKC and in my opinion it's trying its best to bring them back.
Don't want to see it repeated here. It slips up on you.

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Registered: Dec 2004
Location: beckley,wv
Posts: 85

thats very, very true about running a slower dog with faster ones..particularly if it's a young dog....but it's not as much of an issue if running non-competetive type dogs....they aren't always easy to come by, but i love a dog that just runs as fast as he/she can and doesn't get jerked around by a pack....even if they are just a touch slower they will usually catch the pack at a check or cut them from behind when they step over...this is true whether running medium speed or faster hounds...and the hounds that finish and place regularly in the midwest are nice hounds indeed....but where i have to rabbit hunt there are just too many old barns and groundhog holes in the creekbanks. i have had better luck keeping them above ground longer with just a touch slower dogs....don't get me wrong...my dogs pedigrees will match up pretty close with Larry's..but as individual dogs i think mine would be just a half step slower than his.....i haven't been to a midwest trial since back in the 90's, but mine would be a touch slower than what they were running then...not necessarily any closer, because i saw some really nice and clean hounds there...just a bit slower in footspeed. while i do shoot quite a few bunnies in rabbit season i don't necessarily want it back to the gun as fast as possible..i normally will shoot on the second or third circle...watching and listening to them is just as if not more important to me....although one of mine will retrieve every one i shoot and i do have to admit to getting quite a kick out of watching her bring em to me.

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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: Pinson, Alabama
Posts: 59

I believe we all would want the same type of dog others have had the most success and enjoyment out of in whatever area we were running and hunting. Most times folks have certain type Beagle in their area for a reason.

Down here, we run with a lot of different folks, on occasion several of us run or hunt together and will have 15-25 or so dogs. They do separate pretty quickly into smaller packs and we enjoy the mixes that change during the day when rabbits are shot.

I don't like to worry if mine can run with theirs while whoever is going on a particular day are eating breakfast together.

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Registered: Mar 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 32

Stony never say never on the fiest. There was a part fiest female years ago that use to clean clocks at the other registeries hunts. She was wicked. Id fed her.

Not sure that I would totally agree that fast beagles are a result of people adding in different breeds.

Funny I always see alot of people laying claim that so and so saved the hounds as a hunting breed. But most everyone doesnt factor in that Gun Hunters who had not been exposed to trialing carried on and used there hounds without the trialing influence.

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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: Pinson, Alabama
Posts: 59

What happened to the small farm hounds, around 16 inches,slim and leggy of various colors that were used to hunt rabbits and squirrels?
There were small Julys that were sandy red or lemon, small Black and Tans, Redbones (called small boned redbones), Black or red headed Blueticks, solid black with white chests, and now they seem to be replaced by much bigger hounds, three and four times as big, for treeing game or extinct around here. Haven't seen one for years.

Back in the old days, there were only a few choices of colors for beagles on the AKC registration as there were only a few colors. Spotted, blanket backed, tri-colored.
Now look at all the color choices on Beagle registration application for AKC.

Reckon where all those different color choices came from?

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Registered: Mar 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 32

They have always recognized tris. So they have always had variations in colors. Does not mean that modern day hounds were mixed. The beagle like all breeds of dogs owe there existence to a combination of a variety of different breeds of dogs. The good lord didnt just say let there be a beagle and there they appeared. So for different colors to appear is really not an oddity. Ive even heard people say if you see back dew claws on a Beagle it means its not a pure bred. But Ive seen them on hounds I know for a fact are purebred and can trace them back to there original breeders at least 8 generations.

I for one think that AKC should allow unregistered hounds eventually be registered. Say if someone kept up with the breedings over the course of 8 generations and utilized AKC registered hounds to cross. If that make sense. Say took grade bitch A and bred her to AKC Registered Stud B. Those offspring and there subsequent offspring were bred to only registered AKC beagles. You would essentially have diluted and thus removed the unregistered Genetic makeup after several sequential "pure" breedings.

As far as the AKC chain being broken. In another registery I do know a gentleman that has purchased AKC dogs for years and just single registered them with ARHA and never maintained paperwork on the AKC. Id venture to say that is the way most of the grade lines have come to be. In addition to ole Fred having a wandering nature with the neighbors feist...lol

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Registered: Sep 2005
Location: Indy
Posts: 38

MasonsBeagles,

I once owned a non AKC registered female that I felt was worthy of it. Her dam was not registered but the male was. I called AKC to see if anything could be done about and this was the info they gave me.

AKC does allow registering non AKC dogs, not just beagles, but in a controlled manner. For example dog "A", non registered, is bred to Dog "B" who is. The litter can be AKC registered but at a lower level as fully registered, let's say "B" registration, if certain steps are taken, DNA samples and pictures of the bitch and all pups for example and AKC deems that the non registered dog seems to be of that breed.

Now lets say 1 pup from that litter, pup "C", is then bred to dog "D" who is AKC registered. This litter can then be AKC registered but still not as a fully registered one yet, again let's say "A" registration. That's it. Nothing else needed since pup "C" was already DNA'd and photographed.

Last, let's take pup "E" from this last litter and breed it to another AKC registered dog. This litter is now considered to be fully AKC registered.

In other words, anyone who owns, let's say a White River dog, can eventually get their bloodline AKC registered. It comes down to how much trouble you want to take on.

Nobody can say AKC has a closed registry. It's just a little tougher than all others.



And Alabama John,

I know in your area you have nothing but AKC Brace and UBGF, I've been there. Both are slow but the latter is worthy of being called a gundog. Apparently though you haven't been to a Midwest SPO or Southern Large Pack hunts. They are extremely fast with decent line control.

Ask one of UKC's golden boys, Joe Brown. I saw him at the Midwest's Albion trial for the 15" male class last spring. Joe's in great condition and he wasn't able to keep up with them. After watching the winner's pack of 9 dogs, he said he was totally amazed by not just their speed but how much line control they exhibited along with how clean the ran.

I don't think AKC has had much of an effect on UKC as some people think. There are still hundreds if not thousands of AKC trailers out there with great dogs that refuse to try UKC.

I'm sure I have stepped on some toes here but I don't care. I can back this up by saying that I go to all 3 registries from as far south as Louisiana to Wisconsin and from the Missouri River to Vermont and this is what I see and hear. I'll end this though by saying that I think UKC's PP format has potential.

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Registered: Aug 2005
Location: Zanesville, Ohio
Posts: 123

I personally only buy and breed AKC or CKC registered dogs. I have seen many great grade dogs that I wish were AKC registered. It would have to an exceptional dog for me to keep a grade dog. Right or wrong ... just my opinion.

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Registered: Dec 2004
Location: beckley,wv
Posts: 85

i still think the important thing is to always...always use dogs that you like to hunt with when breeding or buying or whatever...no matter ukc, akc or otherwise....never breed for footspeed..slower or faster to win in any trial...it is the easiest thing to get....if you always use dogs that excel in hunting...you will never breed them down too slow as to be useless or so fast that they just can't hold the line. ..that said anyone who enjoys brace beagling or wants hunt with a fiest mix....i'm glad to know you too...in this day and time anyone who enjoys hunting with their dogs should be welcoming anyone else who enjoys sporting events with their dogs...whether it be a brace trial or the biggest large pack trial...we could quite easily one day be defending the right to pursue game with our dogs...and please never think it can't happen..no more fox hunting in merry old England anymore. i think it's silly for anyone to WARNING anyone else about the hazards of beagle trialing. (in whatever form)..warn me when the legislature is voting more of my rights away so i know who to vote for or against. i keep dual registered dog for the most part...not for any particular reason...all my dogs are akc..some are ukc...keep hoping the PP format gains in popularity ....the only reason i keep registered dogs of any kind is that it does help in predicting what my pups MAY turn out like when i breed, and the ability to run them in sporting events if i choose. hadn't posted on this one in a while....somebody else take a turn now.....

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