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earthgirl1975
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2005
Location: Pilot Mtn, NC
Posts: 2205

quote:
Originally posted by ladycathunter
Isn't there a "secret" ingredient in this stuff? And if so, it doesn't worry anyone on long term effects on the dogs? Unless I am mistaking.. and that is a possibility .. this stuff has a secret ingredient that they don't want to mention for competitors sake... What if in 5 or 6 years this is found to effect kidneys or liver or something like that? Just a wild suggestion... I would love to use it, but that has me a bit hesitant...

Please if I am wrong about this let me know..
Thanks

Not possible to be a secret ingredient. That would be a violation of several FDA policies. And i cant see a company like Bayer doing that. As for any product using chemicals they are covered by a patent if copied.

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06-25-2007 11:49 PM

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BRYAN J
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Posts: 2439

Not saying the stuff don't work but I too am kinda scared to use it. Old school I guess. Im not made of $$ either. I just want to make sure my dog stays healthy. The long term effect on dogs can creep up on ya.

If a well known vet would say its absolutely safe then I would believe that! Also I don't have alot of hounds to put frontline on either so I can afford the frontline plus.

I would like to hear it from a vet. thats its a product we can use on dogs. Surely someone on here has a close vet. friend that will say something on the product!

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06-26-2007 05:44 AM

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ahallada
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Registered: Dec 2006
Location: California
Posts: 1867

quote:
Originally posted by earthgirl1975
Not possible to be a secret ingredient. That would be a violation of several FDA policies. And i cant see a company like Bayer doing that. As for any product using chemicals they are covered by a patent if copied.

That is what I thought as well and the reason I contacted Bayer Tech Support. It is right on the MSDS sheet. You will see two active ingredients who's names are witheld for trade secret reasons. Figure that one out.

Allen

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06-26-2007 07:23 AM

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ahallada
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Registered: Dec 2006
Location: California
Posts: 1867

quote:
Originally posted by BRYAN J
Not saying the stuff don't work but I too am kinda scared to use it. Old school I guess. Im not made of $$ either. I just want to make sure my dog stays healthy. The long term effect on dogs can creep up on ya.

If a well known vet would say its absolutely safe then I would believe that! Also I don't have alot of hounds to put frontline on either so I can afford the frontline plus.

I would like to hear it from a vet. thats its a product we can use on dogs. Surely someone on here has a close vet. friend that will say something on the product!

Bryan I'm not going to say anything. LOL. I do remember when veterinary hospitals actually sold Sevin Dust right out of the can for flea control on dogs in the 70s. I doubt we will ever get Bayer to tell us what the actual ingredients are in this product and show us any animal safety studies. The division of Bayer that makes the Tree and Shrub spray is a separate entity from their animal health division.

Allen

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06-26-2007 07:27 AM

bandithunter
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2003
Location: kellogg mn
Posts: 846

If the info I had is correct the L.D.50 for frontline is higher than the bayer product. My only question is how effective it will be on ticks and the jury is still out on that.

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06-26-2007 12:15 PM

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Ron Ashbaugh
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Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Mercer PA
Posts: 4837

I will be sure to let everyone know when my dogs die if it was from Bayer.

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06-26-2007 03:19 PM

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ahallada
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Registered: Dec 2006
Location: California
Posts: 1867

Frontline is Safest

quote:
Originally posted by bandithunter
If the info I had is correct the L.D.50 for frontline is higher than the bayer product. My only question is how effective it will be on ticks and the jury is still out on that.

Yes, Frontline has one of the highest LD50 oral and skin on the market for insecticides.

The higher the LD 50, the safer the product. It is important however to list the route of LD 50 tested. LD 50 is the lowest toxic dose of a chemical that causes death in 50% of test animals. It is important to list the route however as this effects the toxicity of each chemical. For example the LD 50 oral of Frontline vs. the LD 50 skin of Frontline vs. the LD 50 inhalant of Frontline is very different. Either way, a big dog would have to ingest multiple applications of Frontline to create a life threatening reaction. It is the safest commercial insecticide on the market at this time.

Allen

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06-27-2007 06:35 AM

bandithunter
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2003
Location: kellogg mn
Posts: 846

I guess that's why I was wondering why people were applying on the stomach where they can lick it. Put it in the same place you apply frontline and no worries. There have been reactions to frontline in some dogs and even some deaths, haven't seen it in the bayer product.

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06-27-2007 12:27 PM

earthgirl1975
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2005
Location: Pilot Mtn, NC
Posts: 2205

I used to swear by Frontline until it stopped working for me. Lot of money to put into something for it not to work. I also think its a lot to ask of a product to totally keep your dog free of fleas and ticks. JMO. I mean especially if they are exposed to them A LOT. I'm sure this heat and humidity is making it a lot worse.

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06-27-2007 01:43 PM

ahallada
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2006
Location: California
Posts: 1867

quote:
Originally posted by bandithunter
I guess that's why I was wondering why people were applying on the stomach where they can lick it. Put it in the same place you apply frontline and no worries. There have been reactions to frontline in some dogs and even some deaths, haven't seen it in the bayer product.

Do you know if these Frontline cases were reported? I've never heard of a dog dying from ingesting Frontline but I'll find out from the company if they have any reports. There are local reactions to both Frontlne and Advantage in rare occassions. Mostly those little white fur balls that I call hairy doorbells with the most pathetic uptight owners.

Earthgirl,
When I see Frontline not working it usually comes down to a couple of things.
1. I recommend applying it in at least three places on the back for better distribution and making sure the last one is just ahead of the tail base. So middle of shoulder, middle back, and tail head area.

2. Don't bathe the animal at least 2 days prior to applying Frontline as this may remove the oil layer that it travels on. If the dog's skin is dry or dull you will be better using the Frontline spray or get a better dog food to get a better oil layer on the skin. Check for parasites or deworm the dogs also, especially in the midwest, east or southern states.

3. Don't bathe the animal for at least a week after applying and if you do use an emolient shampoo (non-soap) that doesn't strip the oil layer from the skin. Epi-Soothe from Virbac is a great shampoo for this. I recommend only bathing once a month or reapplying the Frontline Spray weekly after bathing. This one is huge!

4. Reapply Frontline to the back with the Frontline spray after bathing and the weeks that you don't apply Frontline Topspot or Frontline Plus. Keep the concentration high. This works great in areas where resistance may be an issue or where monthly application is not working as well. This is less expensive than reapplying Frontline Topspot every two weeks and works great for tick control as well.

5. Use Knockout Spray from Virbac in the houses and inside areas once monthly to control the flea population in the environment. This spray works incredible. Virbac also makes a Yard Spray for use on kennels and yards that has a hose attachment ready to go. Treats 5000 sq. ft. per container.

6. Lastly, buy Frontline from a reputable place like your veterinarian. Most veterinary hospitals have deals now that save you money over farm stores and internet places. There is a huge counterfeit market on both Frontline and Advantage and there is product circulating still that does not work. These companies only sell directly to veterinarians so the only way these supply houses can get them is to buy the products from veterinarians now and resell them. There are also products coming from Australia that are repackaged and sold illegally in the US. Beware of counterfeit products!

7. Buy Frontline Topspot along with Frontline Spray. The money you will save from not buying Frontline Plus you can easily purchase another bottle of Frontline Spray and have available when needed to keep the concentration high. Use premise products like Virbac's Knockout spray to control the flea life cycle as well as keeping the environment clean.

Hope that helps the Frontline crowd that is running into problems this year.

Allen

Last edited by ahallada on 06-27-2007 at 04:20 PM

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06-27-2007 04:13 PM

bandithunter
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2003
Location: kellogg mn
Posts: 846

All of which gets us a long way from the original post about the Bayer product. It's death on fleas and the jury is still out on ticks. If you don't feel safe using it then don't. I have been and am pleased with the results.

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06-27-2007 10:14 PM

heidimarty
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Holden, MO
Posts: 408

We've been using it on our yard/guard/companion dog. (perro de presa canario).She's took to going hunting alot anymore and was comming in totaly, I mean totaly covered with ticks. I would pick 20-30 a day it seamed. I started using the bayer and it has seamed to help. I still pick a few ever few days but nothing like it was.

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06-28-2007 02:57 AM

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Chiggers
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I just get a small bottle of Permectin 2 " Permethin" and pour it in with the Bayer. Kills Ticks.

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06-28-2007 03:56 AM

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longshot
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Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Southwest Missouri
Posts: 2057

Update on the Bayer for fleas and ticks. Its been 12 days since apllied. No side effects I can see. Not a single flea anywhere on the place or on dogs. Just today(day 12) I did see 3 ticks on 1 dog , they are the first I have seen.The other 2 dogs still have no ticks. I still am not totally sure how well the Bayer works for ticks because I also use Ivermectin wormer and did use Bio Spot, but the Bio spot should be worn off by now. It hasnt been apllied for at least 45 days. I dont know if the Bayer is keeping ticks away or if it is the ivermectin along with the residual effects from the Bio spot even though it is overdue. Anyway ,I will continue to post results down the road.....

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06-29-2007 02:02 AM

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mcroucher
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The Bayer Advanced Tree and Shrub Insect Control works wonders for fleas, but has so so effects against ticks. I have used the Bayer Advanced for about three years now with NO side effects. I apply it right down the backbone with a syringe. I apply between 5 and 7 cc's once a month right down the backbone under their hair. It does okay for ticks, but I prefer 10% Permethrin that I purchase at a farm supply place for ticks. I usually mix up a spray bottle and spray my dogs every few weeks with the Permethrin Solution for ticks. I also spray it around the kennel for flies and gnats. As for the Bayer Advanced I have a Chemist as a friend that helped me break it down and the other ingredients is basically glycerine(sugar and alcohol) and a surfactant which helps with the dispersion of the Imidacloprid. This is an excellent product at a very economical price. I highly recommend it and I wouldn't do that if i did not feel it was safe.

Mike

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06-29-2007 07:11 PM

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ahallada
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2006
Location: California
Posts: 1867

quote:
Originally posted by mcroucher
The Bayer Advanced Tree and Shrub Insect Control works wonders for fleas, but has so so effects against ticks. I have used the Bayer Advanced for about three years now with NO side effects. I apply it right down the backbone with a syringe. I apply between 5 and 7 cc's once a month right down the backbone under their hair. It does okay for ticks, but I prefer 10% Permethrin that I purchase at a farm supply place for ticks. I usually mix up a spray bottle and spray my dogs every few weeks with the Permethrin Solution for ticks. I also spray it around the kennel for flies and gnats. As for the Bayer Advanced I have a Chemist as a friend that helped me break it down and the other ingredients is basically glycerine(sugar and alcohol) and a surfactant which helps with the dispersion of the Imidacloprid. This is an excellent product at a very economical price. I highly recommend it and I wouldn't do that if i did not feel it was safe.

Mike

Hey Mike,
Great info here and thanks for the update. Sounds like you really take great care of your dogs and you know how to control the parasite issues in the environment before they become a problem. Just a small warning on the Permethrin spray here. If you have a cat that is buddies with your dog like I had and sleeps with him then I'd be careful with the Permethrin. This product is highly toxic to cats when ingested. I know some coonhunters are not big cat lovers, but this is not a humane thing to see. I've also seen cats lick this product from the environment after it was applied and get sick so be careful where you are applying it if you have a family cat.

Allen

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07-01-2007 03:09 AM

longshot
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Southwest Missouri
Posts: 2057

Another update and my conclusion( unofficial of course) . Its been 15 days since I put on the Bayer and just now starting to see a few more ticks showing up on my dogs. The information above seems to be correct. Bayer is death and I mean death on fleas, but only works fairly on ticks. If you have a flea problem, get some Bayer and its over, but for ticks, you may need something else for better control. Perhaps i would have had better control of ticks if I had apllied a heavier dose but i stayed consevative and this is what I noticed on my own dogs.. Hope this info helps. Bayer is a very cheap way to rid fleas, but only average on ticks.

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07-01-2007 11:06 PM

ahallada
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Registered: Dec 2006
Location: California
Posts: 1867

quote:
Originally posted by longshot
Another update and my conclusion( unofficial of course) . Its been 15 days since I put on the Bayer and just now starting to see a few more ticks showing up on my dogs. The information above seems to be correct. Bayer is death and I mean death on fleas, but only works fairly on ticks. If you have a flea problem, get some Bayer and its over, but for ticks, you may need something else for better control. Perhaps i would have had better control of ticks if I had apllied a heavier dose but i stayed consevative and this is what I noticed on my own dogs.. Hope this info helps. Bayer is a very cheap way to rid fleas, but only average on ticks.

Mark,
Thanks for the update here. This is what I suspected based on experience with thousands of Advantage users. A couple of options for ticks would include a Preventic Collar by Virbac which works great against ticks. You could also add Permethrin to the Bayer Shrub and Tree Spray for added tick control or apply it seperately. Most permethrin products are short lived however and will last anywere from 2-14 days depending on the area you are in and how often your dog gets bathed and wet. The other option is to apply the Bayer Tree and Shrub spray more often with a spray bottle. This works well with the Frontline and I recommend that my clients keep a high concentration on their dogs in problematic areas by applying a few sprays to the back once a week.

Where I hunted in Buffalo County, WI 10 years ago, it was so bad I would apply a small spray dose of Permethrin/Pyrethrin across the back of the dogs I hunted that night for the ticks to repel them. Worked well. I also sprayed this on my wick frogleg chaps and jacket to protect myself. Lyme disease can be a killer and we just lost a guy in this area to Lyme disease a couple of months ago. It went into the brain tissue and couldn't be treated adequately.

Allen

Last edited by ahallada on 07-02-2007 at 03:01 AM

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07-02-2007 12:53 AM

blueticker
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Registered: Jul 2003
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3 teaspoons - 1 Tablespoon
2 Tablespoons = 1 fluid oz.
16 Tablespoons - 1 cup = 8 oz.
2 cups = 1 pint = 16 oz.
2 pints = 1 quart = 32 oz.
4 quarts = 1 gallon = 128 oz.

1 teaspoon = approximately 5 cc or ml
1 Tablespoon = approximately 15 cc or ml
1 ml = 1 cc

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Kevin Self
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Registered: Sep 2003
Location: sc
Posts: 801

quote:
Originally posted by Lance Johnson
What is the actual name on the containor and what does the containor look like???

I may give it a try around the kennel!

lance make sure you get the one that has the active ingredient of like 1.47% imalcropoid may be a bit off on % and spelling but that's close. Also its not brain surgery I've been using this stuff.for years. Just get a handful and rub it down their backs, not the belly or legs just right down the back. Do it first of spring and never worry about fleas. It does not work 100% on ticks.

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l.lyle
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quote:
Originally posted by Lance Johnson
What is the actual name on the containor and what does the containor look like???

I may give it a try around the kennel!

A three paragragh letter from a scientist and it gets deleted. So I stand up and say FU! I have learned my lesson well > Speak in three word sentences , subject, verb , and object, Then Post. Looks like I might be tawlking to my own self and you can look like some kind of a Hero. Feel Good? The post was about Bayer Tree and Shrub . Just measurements, and somebody gets bent out of Shape?? Three word limit is my response from now on. And if some body Kills their dog on account of a monitor hitting the button, you need to know it was him, not me. A pint is a pound the world ' round. Change that fact monitor.

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12-28-2011 05:52 AM