Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Darlington, South Carolina
Posts: 1139

I just want to add that you are an extremely nice person and I'm not trying to jump all over you. You have been more patient than I ever could have been with all of the people who have commented.

Oh, and Ladycathunter, I am loving the picture of the dogs on the couch. The caption makes it!

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Erin Britt

Aight guys, this ain't a bench show and I ain't a hound. Keep ya eyes where they need to be.

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Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Northeastern Ohio
Posts: 127

culling may be a part of some peoples breeding program but I dont intend to make it part of mine. I just think there has to be a better way. Just my opinion. I know this discussion can go on and on and on but it really won't go anywhere because everyone has their own opinion on it. Cresteds have had their share of culling and I've saved a few of them that other people probably would of put down but I saved them and they made someone a wonderful pet. The powderpuff variety of the cresteds had their share of this years ago. It used to be that puffs were not real popular and a lot of people never admitted to having any in a litter. As soon as they were born, they were "bucketed". I had many a disagreement over this with breeders who said I didn't understand that it was for the betterment of the breed. Hogwash! I personally myself prefer the puffs over the hairless. I love the hair and I love the personality. In my opinion there is no better pet than a neutered male puff.

The 3 year old bluetick that is in my kennel now probably would of been culled a long time ago if it had not of been for me. My boss probably would of shot the dog a long time ago but he knew how much I liked him so he kept him. I always told him when he reached the stage of he couldn't stand the dog anymore to just bring him to my house and I would make room for him. There is nothing wrong with the dog other than he is not a spectacular hunting dog. At least in my opinion. He doesn't go deep in the woods and since he has been mistreated he slinks around. He is now at my house permanetly and I have been working with him and we are going to take him out next week to see if he is a different dog in the woods. I think he will be. If he isn't it doesn't matter I'm still going to keep him. I'm trying to develop my own philosophy of training hounds trying to see what works and what doesn't. Maybe I'm wrong but I have to try and see for myself.

The more I am around hounds the more I like them. I also like the people, well at least most of them. I think some of the hunters around here could stand to be a bit more like the people on the message board.

Don't worry I don't think you are jumping all over me. I developed a thick skin a long time ago. I had too as crested people are horrible people I really don't want to argue with anyone and I have learned that with people you take from people what you like. If someone has an idea and I like it and think it will work for me than I try it. If I don't like their ideas I simply go on.

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Rachel
Team Fyreside

Performance Cresteds
&
Bloodtracking Black & Tan Coonhound
"Fyresides Shotgun Willie"
www.fyresidecresteds.com

I asked God to make me a more patient person - he gave me a coonhound.

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Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Park Falls, WI.
Posts: 487

Rachel
What gives you the right to put all of us hound hunters in to one group and judge us? Asking if there are any decent coonhunters out there is pretty obnoxious.

First you ridicule all dog sports and then you go on to make it obvious that you do not know how to train dogs.

You should be a little less judgemental until you learn more.

I looked at your web site and I think you mean conformation not confirmation.

Good luck with your cresteds.
Kyle

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Registered: Jan 2006
Location: bronaugh,MO
Posts: 2595

Rachel,

I think your head and heart are in the right place. The best trainers I know are thinkers like you. The one piece of advice I can give you is to use that. Pick a dog that isnt hard headed and wants to please and you should do ok.

Most importantly, find out what makes that dog tick. There is a dog out there that will respond precisly to the methods you want to use, but by limiting the methods you are willing to use you limit the field of prospects. Hounds range from soft hearted wimps to hard headed rocks. Some will go flat from not having fur, some will go flat if you give them fur. Some have to be hunted like you stole them, and some wash out after more than 1 or 2 nights a week of hunting.

Like I said before, there is no cookie cutter aproach to training dogs,and no 1 method will work on every dog. None.

As for not culling. There are 2 reasons I wont place a washout as a pet.

#1 I absolutly do not want my breed to fall into the trap that swallows so many working breeds, and that starts with someone having 1 as a pet. Its a short road from there to being bred for pets instead of for the working ability so many in the past worked so hard to perfect. Take the border collie. For thousands of years they have been a working breed. Now far to many spend there days chasing frizbees instead of herding stock. Its the same reason I cant stand a show and go. Both are the death of a working breed.

#2 unless I spay and nueter one before it leaves here I cant be for certin it wont be bred somewhere down the road. Its just plain cheaper for me to cull it. Its not something I enjoy or do out of spite. To me its an admishion of failure. A failure in breeding or training.

An old man once told me, "That the bone yard out back is a reminder to me to think before I do. Its full of times I was wrong. Each time I put one in there I failed somewhere along the road. I will not make someone else clean up my mess." I never forgot that.

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Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 2767

good post Larry.

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Friends don't let friends hunt blueticks

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Fl.
Posts: 1280

You have some good thoughts but if I may make a suggestion.
Expand your world a little and realize first dogs that are shy or seem to have a lot of problems are not always the product of abuse. Genetics plays a tremendous role along with training.
Not being stern enough with a hound keeps one from reaching its full potential. Dogs have to learn that when their owner says something it has to happen. This learning process isn't the owner yelling, screaming, jumping up and down. It is the owner understanding his dog, knowing how the dog responds to him/her and then using the right amount of discipline to make things work. Most owners are not responsible enough to raise a dog and train it. That is the biggest problem we have and is a bigger abuse problem than someone correcting a dog.
Dogs that are genetically sound and properly trained need very few coon shot out to them.

There is nothing better than to see a well trained hound perform.
Here is how a hunt should take place.
You and your dog head towards your truck, if you keep it in a pen then you open the door on the pen and the dog comes out. No leash no restraints just the dog knowing its heading to the woods. You tell the dog to load and it gets in the truck on its own, no begging, no chasing it down and making it load.
Once in the truck your dog omes out of the box and stands on the tailgate while you place the proper collars on him/her and then its off to the woods.
Now leash your dog and take him/her out of the truck and point it in the direction you want the dog to hunt. Unsnap the lease and get ready to hear some music. The dog strikes a track and then trees the coon. You go to the tree see the coon and then leash your dog. If your going to hunt the same area step a short distance from the tree and cast the dog and wait till he calls you to another tree. If your heading back to the truck then leash your hound and drop the leash and have the dog follow you to the truck. Once at the truck have the dog load and head to another drop or head home. No anmial abuse, nothing but watching a hound perform not only to its genetically bred ability to tree a coon and having enough brains to respond to what the handler.
Your hound is so much smarter than people give them credit being. Allowing is dog not to perform is allowing one to out smart you.

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"Coon Eyes Matter"
Boss Lights
San Mateo, Fl

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Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Darlington, South Carolina
Posts: 1139

quote:

---

Originally posted by larrypoe
Rachel,

I think your head and heart are in the right place. The best trainers I know are thinkers like you. The one piece of advice I can give you is to use that. Pick a dog that isnt hard headed and wants to please and you should do ok.

Most importantly, find out what makes that dog tick. There is a dog out there that will respond precisly to the methods you want to use, but by limiting the methods you are willing to use you limit the field of prospects. Hounds range from soft hearted wimps to hard headed rocks. Some will go flat from not having fur, some will go flat if you give them fur. Some have to be hunted like you stole them, and some wash out after more than 1 or 2 nights a week of hunting.

Like I said before, there is no cookie cutter aproach to training dogs,and no 1 method will work on every dog. None.

As for not culling. There are 2 reasons I wont place a washout as a pet.

#1 I absolutly do not want my breed to fall into the trap that swallows so many working breeds, and that starts with someone having 1 as a pet. Its a short road from there to being bred for pets instead of for the working ability so many in the past worked so hard to perfect. Take the border collie. For thousands of years they have been a working breed. Now far to many spend there days chasing frizbees instead of herding stock. Its the same reason I cant stand a show and go. Both are the death of a working breed.

#2 unless I spay and nueter one before it leaves here I cant be for certin it wont be bred somewhere down the road. Its just plain cheaper for me to cull it. Its not something I enjoy or do out of spite. To me its an admishion of failure. A failure in breeding or training.

An old man once told me, "That the bone yard out back is a reminder to me to think before I do. Its full of times I was wrong. Each time I put one in there I failed somewhere along the road. I will not make someone else clean up my mess." I never forgot that.

---

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Erin Britt

Aight guys, this ain't a bench show and I ain't a hound. Keep ya eyes where they need to be.

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Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Northeastern Ohio
Posts: 127

Kyle

First of all the only coonhunters I know are the ones around here and they treat their dogs like crap in my opinion. They stick them in a kennel at the end of season where the dog gets fat and lazy. Then when season starts they just throw them in the woods. I'm amazed one of their hounds hasn't had a heartattack or ripped a muscle or something. They have no patience with their dogs and the majority of them either shoot or beat their dogs rather than find another solution to a problem. They never admit that it might be their fault that a dog has messed up. If you had read any of my later posts you would see that I did apologize to anyone that I offended by making a broad statement. I did learn that there are decent and kind hunters who treat their dogs decent. I was having a bad day and was just tired of learning all about how to "whip" your hound into shape and wanted to see a different side. Like I said I am fairly new to hunting and to hounds. Everyone has to start somewhere and it tends to be through trial and error that we learn. I am trying to be openminded and learn what I can from everyone so that I can form a philosophy for training a hound.

I admit to making my fair share of mistakes with dogs. Some of those mistakes have been very costly. I vowed a long time ago to try and learn from my mistakes and to never blame a dog if it made a mistake. 99% of the time it was my fault that the dog screwed up.

As for the spelling well it's not necessarily one of my strong points. Thanks for pointing that out. I will fix it

Question: What dog sports did I ridicule? Please explain. I do obedience, rally, agility, confirmation, etc. There is good and bad in every sport. I have witnessed it first hand. If you would like to know more about that I can elaborate on that.

What makes you think I don't know how to train dogs. I have trained quite a few dogs. I have trained different dog breeds. The chocolate lab mix that I had a few years ago now works on the Georgia police force as a drug detection dog. I even got a thank you for all of the training I put into him. I don't claim to know everything there is to training dogs or dogs in general. The best trainers never stop trying to learn. I am here to learn. I don't profess to be perfect but I am trying to be openminded.

I really do love the hound breed and look forward to seeing what I can do with a hound.

Bruce

Yes I know that there are different personalities in every breed. I do have different training methods with different dogs. Some of them I can be a little bit harder with and some I can't.
The hound that is the kennel right now is a product of abuse. I know that because my boss knows the kennel this dog came from and the guy who trains dogs is an abusive person. He beats dogs on a tree and he beats them off a tree. He beats them if they stay around him too much. Since I have had this dog he is a different dog. He will look at me and he doesn't have the dead sad look in his eyes. I also know that there will probably be some problems down the road with him because he is after all a hound and no they aren't pets and yes they are a working breed. I think that part of the problem with this hound was that he needed someone to be a little more patient with him and teach him what to do. Not everyone has the patience to do that. It's a shame because I think he really could of been a great dog. I'm not sure how far I can take him but I am trying to do baby steps with him and build him up. In the two weeks I have had him he does seem to be a different dog. I have been teaching him little things to try and get him to use his brain instead of being a mindless robot. I do have a few mentors around to help me with any rough spots that I have with this hound and any others I may have.

We did have a crested puppy here that we discussed whether or not to put her down. She seemed to have a really bad temperament. We did however find her a home and it has worked out really well for her. If that home had not worked out then chances are I would of had to put her down because I don't think her quality of life would of been very good.

We will be taking Blue out sometime this week as I want to see if he is a different dog in the woods. I will post some pictures if we go.


SCBluetickGirl

Do you find that the male population of the coonhound world treats you different or as an equal? I have been told that it is hard for a woman to be in the hound world. Would you find that that is true? Do you do any competition hunting? It's something that I would like to get into eventually. Now don't anyone go off the deep end as I'm only asking questions because I really want to know and I'm not picking at anyone. I only know what I've been told and what I've experienced. When I was growing up I knew of a woman who hound coonhounds. I don't remember which kind but she wanted to get into coonhunting but couldn't deal with the attitudes she got so she quit.


larrypoe

Excellent post! I can't thank you and everyone else for all your posts. It's given me quite a bit to think about.

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Rachel
Team Fyreside

Performance Cresteds
&
Bloodtracking Black & Tan Coonhound
"Fyresides Shotgun Willie"
www.fyresidecresteds.com

I asked God to make me a more patient person - he gave me a coonhound.

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Registered: Feb 2006
Location: West Point, MS
Posts: 436

I HAVE SEEN THAT LATELY THIS BOARD HAS BECOME TO MAY "RESCUE"(AND I USE THAT TERM LOOSELY) OWNERS. THE QUESTION I WOULD POSE IS, DO YOU THINK THAT TAKING A NATURAL BORN HUNTER THAT LOVES THE THRILL OF THE CHASE AND LOCKING THEM UP IN YOUR HOUSE TO MAKE A LAP DOG OUT OF IT IS A RESCUE? THERE ARE ZEBRAS THAT ARE KILLED EVERYDAY BY PREDATORS IN THEIR NATURAL ENVIROMENT. THAT IS A HARSH REALITY BUT WOULD YOU BE "RESCUEING" THAT ANIMAL BY CAPTURING IT AND THROW IT IN THE CAGES OF A ZOO?
ALSO, YOU MAKE THE CASE THAT DOGS BEING KENNELED IS BAD. WERE DO YOU KEEP YOUR HOUND? DO YOU LET IT RUN FREE?

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NITE CH PKC CH SKUNA RIVER ELVIS "THE BOB-TAIL DOG"

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Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Northeastern Ohio
Posts: 127

nothing wrong with keeping a dog kenneled. My problem is the dog staring at 4 walls day after day after day. I just think that dogs need more stimulation than that. My hound is in a kennel but he goes for a walk every nite which I work on some basic obedience stuff with him and sometimes in the morning if I have time. He comes into the house at nite for his dinner which he has to work for. If it is hot he sleeps outside in the kennel. If it's cooler he sleeps inside in a big cage in my room. Some days we go for a long drive and then a walk in the park. He rides in the back of the van and he looks at the side window the entire time.

He is not a lap dog and he is not treated like one. I did not rescue this dog. My friend brought him to me after I lost the two black and tan puppies and his exact words to me were "Get this son of a #@!# out of my sight I don't want to look at him anymore!" If I wanted to rescue a hound I could I am on several lists. I am not a hound rescue. I am not in any way set up to do that.

I have full intentions on letting Blue be a working dog. I will hopefully be taking him out this week with my friend. I am hoping that he will make a good older dog to run puppies with.

As for the Zebras and predators I guess you will have to talk to someone else about that.

I am not using the whole board for this discussion just one thread.

I see no reason a hound can't be a working dog and also a member of the family.

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Rachel
Team Fyreside

Performance Cresteds
&
Bloodtracking Black & Tan Coonhound
"Fyresides Shotgun Willie"
www.fyresidecresteds.com

I asked God to make me a more patient person - he gave me a coonhound.

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Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Darlington, South Carolina
Posts: 1139

quote:

---

Originally posted by fyresidecrested
SCBluetickGirl

Do you find that the male population of the coonhound world treats you different or as an equal? I have been told that it is hard for a woman to be in the hound world. Would you find that that is true? Do you do any competition hunting? It's something that I would like to get into eventually. Now don't anyone go off the deep end as I'm only asking questions because I really want to know and I'm not picking at anyone. I only know what I've been told and what I've experienced. When I was growing up I knew of a woman who hound coonhounds. I don't remember which kind but she wanted to get into coonhunting but couldn't deal with the attitudes she got so she quit.

---

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Erin Britt

Aight guys, this ain't a bench show and I ain't a hound. Keep ya eyes where they need to be.

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Registered: May 2006
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 1344

I just wanted to say, as a woman hunter I really haven't had a problem. I am treated well and a few guys tend to watch their language a little more around me but that is it. When I was new, I was treated as a NEWBIE but not any differently as a male newbie would be. And it could be due to the fact we got into big game dogs first and I am just now getting into comp hunting so I am already established in the dog world. There are a few guys out there who would make a smart comment but normally their mouth shut fast when my dogs would make theirs look stupid.... I found very little problem with it.. Maybe I knew the right people getting into it. I am not sure, but they know I am a serious houndsperson and that it good enough.

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OutWest Big Game Hounds

You've only got 3 choices in life, give in, give up, or give it all you got.

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Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Darlington, South Carolina
Posts: 1139

quote:

---

Originally posted by ladycathunter
I just wanted to say, as a woman hunter I really haven't had a problem. I am treated well and a few guys tend to watch their language a little more around me but that is it. When I was new, I was treated as a NEWBIE but not any differently as a male newbie would be. And it could be due to the fact we got into big game dogs first and I am just now getting into comp hunting so I am already established in the dog world. There are a few guys out there who would make a smart comment but normally their mouth shut fast when my dogs would make theirs look stupid.... I found very little problem with it.. Maybe I knew the right people getting into it. I am not sure, but they know I am a serious houndsperson and that it good enough.

---

Yeah, reading back over my response, I made it sound like every time you go out you will have problems with the men. That's not the case, and that's not what I meant to make it sound like. What I meant was that you probably will, at some point, have to deal with it. Thanks for bringing that up Ladycathunter. I didn't mean to sound like a man hater.

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Erin Britt

Aight guys, this ain't a bench show and I ain't a hound. Keep ya eyes where they need to be.

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Registered: Feb 2004
Location: West Kill, NY
Posts: 2047

Go to a few comp hunts and go out as a spectator. Comp hunts aren't for everybody, but you'll be treated a lot better if you learn the rules before you enter a dog. Most newbies don't. Make sure you buy a few hamburgers and raffle tickets to contribute to the financial viability of the host club. Watch to see who treats their dogs well, and which dogs handle well, and learn from those handlers. You'll probably make some friends and meet some hunters who treat their dogs very well. If you don't, try a different club.

Most coonhunters are pretty traditional and use time-tested training methods. That doesn't mean that experimenting with newer techniques won't get good results, and may even earn you respect in the hound world if they work well. You might also want to look into Vickie Lamb's book, the Dynamics of Hound Training. I don't think you'll find much to take exception with in her methods, and she is well-respected in the hound world.

Your close-hunting blue hound may be just the dog for you to start with. Some people--especially us older people with bad knees--prefer a hound that comes back and checks in regularly, and if you are just learning what a coonhound does, its nice to be able to watch as well as listen. You might consider putting a lighted collar on him to help you see what he does and how he works.

Like any amateur sport, some coonhunters take themselves too seriously, but most coonhunters have a good sense of humor. We have to because the dogs regularly make fools of us. If you enjoy your hound and are happy with its performance, you shouldn't worry about what other people think of your training methods. There is no reason to keep your mouth shut about clearcut animal abuse either--its plain out bad for the sport. But remember that the line between old-fashioned and mean-spirited isn't always easy to identify from the outside, and give the other hunters you meet the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. An awful lot of hunters I know talk tough but are really soft touches for a good hound.

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Registered: Jan 2006
Location: Downeast Maine/Southeast Oklahoma
Posts: 22

I really liked reading this thread, interesting stuff. I've worked as a shelter manager for awhile. For those of you that have been to an animal shelter there is usually a pretty high population of hounds there, in the south. Many of the hounds do get adopted. Which is great. Unfortunately, many of them do not. Coming from a family that was always into hunting with hounds, I was highly criticized for my stance on hunting etc. I was labeled as basically, a heartless you-know-what for defending the actions of many a coon hunter. But, I could see points on both sides. There's alot of misinformation being promulgated by both factions. I'd rather see a dog euthanized than stuck in a shelter for years on end. And the coon hunters I know treat their hounds better than some people treat their kids.

I believe most hounds are generally bred to be super high energy/performance. I believe they absolutely ADORE what they do and to deny them that rush does the breed such a disservice. The animal rights/ Rescue group people etc. don't realize or never saw how truly happy these dogs are when they are working. Most hounds live to hunt. With that being said, keeping them kenneled for weeks and months on end without some sort of stimulation is flat out cruel. We'd rescue hounds that lived in such poor conditions it would make your stomach turn. But we'd also rescue poodles, shepherds etc.

My problem with the whole deal comes in when I have seen hunters wreck a dog and then claim the dog doesn't hunt when the owner is really to blame for wrecking it. Owner stupidity bothers me.

Bottom line is you can train a coon hound by just praising it and ignoring it when it messes up. You can train a hound with an e-collar. You can train it by letting it get tore up a bit, etc. There are lots of ways to train. And some dogs are waaaaay more hard headed than others. Alot of time the hunter will have to resort to a little more force just to save the dog in the future.

So basically, Coon hunters do get a bad rap. In my area, it was mainly for massive puppy milling. And just abandoning hounds in the woods that don't hunt. Those dogs are left to starve which is cruel compared to a bullet. JMO.

I know there are some awesome hunters out there who really care about their hounds. From what I read, alot of them post here!

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Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Darlington, South Carolina
Posts: 1139

I've really enjoyed this thread, too. There aren't many threads that survive everyone voicing their opinions without spiraling out of control! I wish there were more discussion type threads like this one!

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Erin Britt

Aight guys, this ain't a bench show and I ain't a hound. Keep ya eyes where they need to be.

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Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Northeastern Ohio
Posts: 127

I myself enjoyed this thread as well. I do tend to just react to people and spout off and posting and then later on I regret doing that. I really didn't want to do that here so this has been a lesson in patience for me

I would like to see other discussions like this also. Let me see if I can come up with some other stuff to people up..... Just kidding

Seriously I do have other questions that I will get around to asking. Things I guess that I don't understand or that bother me about the hound world. I will get around to asking those eventually. I really enjoyed talking to everyone. I don't get the chance to talk about dogs a whole lot to other people except for at training class or to certain family members. If I do something exceptionally well with one of the cresteds I tell people at work and they get that bored look on their face and they say "Oh that's nice....." LOL!

I really look forward to doing a lot of different things in the hound world. Blue is such a different dog since he has been here. I am playing with the thought of seeing if he can do rally. I might take him out for a little bit to see how he does in the woods and get some pictures tonite.

__________________
Rachel
Team Fyreside

Performance Cresteds
&
Bloodtracking Black & Tan Coonhound
"Fyresides Shotgun Willie"
www.fyresidecresteds.com

I asked God to make me a more patient person - he gave me a coonhound.

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