wkfii
UKC Forum Member
Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Independence, Kentucky
Posts: 1348 |
quote:
Originally posted by terry willford
If you are a walker breeder and you think crossbreeding doesnt work you had better do a little research, especially if you hunt anything with clover in it. Talk to those that know about what lone pine lady, finley river bell and other foundation dogs are out of.
If you are an english breeder look back on beshears blue boy(junior) and do a little research.
Crossbreeding does produce good cattle, hogs, sheep and COONHOUNDS. You do have to be very careful how you do it and it is not for everyone. You will probably have to do some linebreeding in order to keep the traits you want. But a outcross every once in a while is a good thing.
I dont think UKC should single register crossbreeds unless they are 7/8 pure. Until they are 7/8 they should just be registered as crossbred with the ancestors identified as to which breed they are. It would be a win/win situation in the fact that more dogs would be able to compete so more money to a club, UKC could make more money, and the kid down the road who got the free half walker half bluetick pup wouldnt feel left out. As far as crossing with curs they already register treeing curs so that is really a mute point. but as far as crossing the hound breeds, its a free country so why not.
This has to be one of the most contentious issues ever on the board and by my count at least the third thread started on this issue. I agree for the most part with Terry's assessment especially in regard to his statement that an outcross every once in a while is a good thing. However, I have some points that I would like to make.
First, just that fact that you mix a Walker and a Black and Tan is not going to produce anything like hybrid vigor. There is very little genetic diversity in all of the hunting breeds combined. I include labs, hounds, bird dogs, coonhounds, etc. The DNA study published in Nature has demonstrated that with some scientific certainty. Within the coonhound or treehound breeding there is even less. I would submit that the "breeds" are really "brands" based upon the color of the coat. Even the Plott is included in that statement because it is my understanding from conversations with certain people in the know that Blueticks and Walkers have been crossed into the breed for years based upon the premise that if you breed good hounds to good hounds you are going to get good hounds and it does not matter what the color of the coat is. In any event, Plotts are St. Hubert derivatives just like Bloodhounds, Black and Tans, Redbones. Plus, the St Hubert derivatives have been bred into the Foxhound, and Gascogn derivatives for years.
Second, I recognize that many other types of dog have been bred into the scenthounds in this country and historically. That has been going on for thousands of years to the time that the Celts moved into western Europe with their massive 250 lb. mastiff type scenthounds. So when fifty years ago farmer Jones bred his little treeing border collie to his bloodhound, he was merely carrying on a tradition that was well established and really nothing new. Breed for performance and specifically breed to perform a task in mind. Joe Brooks stated that "Hard Time Speck, Flinley River Chief, Johnson's Banjo, was out of an english and a dog of Whippet blood." I really had not heard that, and would be interested in learning more from Joe. It really does not surprise me in the least because that cross, the greyhound type to the scenthound type, is one that has been made for centuries and the reason that our treeing hounds do not look like St. Bernards- at least in regard to size and coat. see Whippet snippet below.
"The Whippet was developed at the end of the 19th century through crossing among the Greyhound, the Italian Greyhound, and the Terrier. Its name derives from the expression "whip it" meaning to move quickly. The Whippet is an outstanding track racer over short distances reaching speeds of up to 37 miles per hour (60km. per hour) - in seconds! Coursing these dogs was an entertaining form of gambling for the lower classes in England. Some of the Whippet's talents include: hunting, sighting, watchdogging, racing, agility, and lure coursing."
I don't know about Clover bred Walkers being from collies in this country. I may be mistaken, but I had thought that that look was coming from old Finley River Pete to Hardwood Bozo to Clover. Forrester's Sue, a Elbert Vaughn bred Bluetick, was single registered as a Walker and was a cornerstone of the Finley River line. Vaughn attributed the off color eyes in his Blueticks to a trait that come from crosses with Goodman Running Walkers. Vaughn ought to know because he was, if I am not mistaken doing the breeding and/ or had first hand knowledge of that cross. Goodmans are rough coated and are more or less a cross between the old Kentucky Walkers and Irish Wolfhound type rough coated sight hounds. Who by the way were loaded with greyhound type blood. Could the Irish hounds and the collie types have common blood? Probably.
Third, very few of us have the ability to breed hounds like Elbert Vaughn. I know that I don't. Having said this, I think that the branding that we currently have has served the coonhound community well and would like to keep the registry the way it is. Single registration provides for the opportunity to introduce hounds of mixed ancestry or brands. I think that working within the individual associations that those rules can be tweaked. Performance ought to be the primary criterion. To create a registry and have a en masse registration of dogs that are crossed is just a bad idea because it undermines the whole reason why these hounds needed to be registered in the first place. We don't need to go back to the dark ages.
Lastly, I think fundamentally, this ongoing debate has more to do with the basic fundamental that has driven the development of all the hunting breeds. In other words, what are the hounds being bred to do or perform. Generally, we have the show people, the generalists, and the competition hunters. Broadly speaking, the generalists like to bench show, pleasure hunt, and competition hunt. The show people just like to bench. The pure competition people just like to competition hunt. Skyblu, may hunt a little, but she has taken the bench/ show track. Everything has to be purebred and we should jump off the cliff after the AKC registered Irish Setters and Black and Tans. etc. The breed standard is the holy grail and all hounds should be bred to fall within that standard. Lynn "Big Breezy" Wilson even proclaims that hounds bred to comply with the standards will make the best hunters. HUH?
Some of the pure competition people proclaim that the Walker was bred to win competition hunts, blah, blah, blah. Cirlce points don't put meat in the tree and the Treeing Walker was bred to put meat in the tree.
We need to breed for performance within the current rules with a single registration program designed to allow hounds that can perform in the field to be so registered. If I can find a running Walker that trees and runs a track faster than most treehounds of today, and is accurate, should not that hound be eligible for single registration? Would it not improve upon the brand that has become unbalanced a tad with too much tree? That's not genetic mud, that is going back to a formula that worked with Crowding Billy- who by the way could trace his ancestry directly to Big Stride and the original Tenn. Lead.
We need to keep the balance that we have and tweak the single registration rules a little here and there with performance being the holy grail.
__________________
Bill Fulmer
Member of the NAADP
Track and Tree with Accuracy and Determination.
Last edited by wkfii on 09-28-2006 at 11:38 PM
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09-27-2006 05:29 PM
