Registered: Dec 2005
Location: central illinois
Posts: 453

When you get right down to it I think the problem is not the all grand pedigree but money. I beleive once again just like alot of other good things, money is what is hurting breeding today! This includes all grand and any other titles. Now dont get me wrong, putting a title on a dog is great. To me it is a feeling of self accomplishment for me and my dog, but too many people are in this game for nothing more then the money! I have a dog here now that will die on my place. A couple of hunters have bred females to him and I hope they turn out as good as him. I go to the hunts when there is a local one and if Im off work. I finished him to NTCH in three hunts. Hes not the best dog Ive owned nor the best out there, I know this but I like him. He is a coondog in any mans eyes. I have never nor will I ever take a dime from someone breeding a female to him. I might take a pup if I decide I need one. I will know what kind of female Im breeding and I dont mean just what the papers say!I mean in the woods, or my dog wont breed her. I also dont expect anyone else to breed to my dog without knowing what they are getting. The females he has bred are owned by hard coonhunters who have spent night after night in all conditions in the woods with my dog, and liked what they saw. Bottom line is I want good pups, time will tell if this dog is capable of reproducing them, butif he cant I will know it is not because the sire and dam were weak. If everyone would breed like this then you would see a better coondog!

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Registered: Jan 2006
Location: Everywhere
Posts: 2708

Who says that buying an All Grand is a curse? Lets face it, buying a pup is a huge crap shoot. Buying an All Grand pup is a crap shoot too..but odds are you're more likely to end up with a coondog in the end. Thats why people buy them, and thats why people breed them and ask so much money for them. How many adult dogs with an ALL Grand pedigree are on here for sale? Not many, that must mean something. I think people are just looking to increase their odds of buying a dog who will finish into a coon dog, thats all. usually in an All Grand pedigree, there are also a few dogs on the reproducers list. It's all about bettering your chances of success, thats all. I'm not saying you cant breed 2 PR dogs and get some nice ones...it's all a crap shoot...but when ya see an edge ya go for it.

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Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Platteville, Wi
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bought any all grand pups?

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Registered: Jan 2006
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Me? Yes, I have an All Grand English.

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Registered: Mar 2005
Location: north dakota
Posts: 2363

the all grand ped is what we want , your chances should be better. i said should , but its not a guarentee. but just because you have a male or female out of an all grand cross doesn't make it worthy of the breeding pen. they need to prove they have the desired genetic traits that will make them worthy of breeding.
... i seen a add on treeing walker clasified that said they had a young female for sale out of an all grand cross they raised a litter of pups off. then started hunting her and decided they were not satisfied with the dogs performance , and wanted to sell her. i think that should have been determined that before the bred her. the pups might turn out , but that is not smart breeding .

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Registered: Mar 2005
Location: north dakota
Posts: 2363

quote:

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Originally posted by wade hahn
you no what Ollie said "you breed one little runt pig to anouther litttle runt pig you dont get much"

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Registered: Jun 2006
Location: KENTUCKY
Posts: 558

quote:

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Originally posted by Dan Dogs
bought any all grand pups?

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Registered: Jul 2005
Location: minnesota
Posts: 1561

quote:

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Originally posted by al jackson
he said yes he has bought a all grand dan dog how about you.

why do you finish your dogs to grand.

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Registered: Jun 2006
Location: KENTUCKY
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quote:

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Originally posted by JIMHILL
why does he finish his dogs to grand did u ask???

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Registered: Jul 2005
Location: minnesota
Posts: 1561

i guess what i mean is why are u asking that al

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Registered: Jul 2005
Location: minnesota
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quote:

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Originally posted by al jackson
correct jim

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Registered: Jun 2006
Location: KENTUCKY
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quote:

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Originally posted by JIMHILL
why do u think cause he can

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Registered: Dec 2005
Location: central illinois
Posts: 453

MJFLORES I can agree with you to some extent. If you are just taking a shot in the dark of what kinda dog you end up with than an all grand probably does improve your odds. I would have to say that just about any grntch has to be a dog that can and will tree coon, at least in the right situation. If you have ever been around the old ACHA world hunt you will know that there has been some, winning, big name UKC grntch hounds that will not even go hunting by themselves when the top twenty hunt by themselves. Im not in no way nocking grntch dogs but the point Im trying to make is that ive hunted with many GRntch dogs that I absolutely did not like, nor would I consider even close to being breeding stock. I think a person would be much better off buying a pup out of two dogs that he really likes, even if they do not have the titles or all grand pedigree than giving high dollar for a pup just because it does. I feel anyone that buys a pup that is all gr without ever hunting with the sire and dam is simply buying the pup in hopes that it turns out so that they can continue the cycle and make some bucks themselves. They really dont care about the individual traits of the pup as long as it finishes to grnt. Therefore they are more interested in making money than they are in making a better coondog.

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Registered: Jan 2006
Location: Everywhere
Posts: 2708

Thats true to some extent John. But, Maybe I'm a little different than most. If my all grand english pup turns into a coondog, I'll put him in the hunts. I may or may not breed him...I'm not a breeder and dont really want to become one. In my neck of the woods there arent any English dogs to speak of so...the opportunity probably wouldnt be there anyway. I plan to get him the title he deserves to wear if he can do it, thats all. I'll offer the man who bred the litter a free stud service if he thinks it'll help what he's doing then, if not then no big deal. The dog I'm pushing now is a walker I bought because I liked how the sire hunted...he's a dual grand now but when he had his litter he was just show CH. The dam is a PR country fur dog...nothing special. It made a good cross and he's hunting and treeing on his own. Some people, like myself..are just looking for good dogs, or to better their chances of spending all that pup time and actually having a hound you can hunt in the end. Like I said..puppies are a crap shoot but in my mind, you improve your chances by buying all grand stock, even if it's a small chance. I'm the last one to care about titles...I just enjoy going out and treeing a coon, and hearing good dog work. Titles are just a little something extra...but they sure look nice infront of a dogs name!! haha

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Registered: Aug 2006
Location: Georgia
Posts: 86

I would rather have a dog without papers at all that is a COONDOG than an all grand dog that is decent. I have seen alot of grand nite dogs that i wouldnt give 5 dollars for and i have seen some good ones to.

Cody

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Registered: Jul 2006
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 8

When you restrict yourself to breeding only to a all grand male, you are hurting yourself and the breed. For instance, you have two dogs, one outstanding dog that does not have an all grand ped, the other dog has an all grand, but lacks ability. Well if you have got to breed to an all grand, you just shortened yourself. There are a few high dollar pup factories out there, but believe me, they are there for their own pocket book, not your best interest. Most of these pup factories with up to lord knows how many all grand females, of which they have bought, are there for one reason MONEY, YOUR MONEY. Everybody loves to have titles, me included, but don't never budge an inch on ability and leave that all GRAND CLUB alone.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Sylva, North Carolina (the far Western Tip of the State)
Posts: 10272

quote:

---

Originally posted by ark1111o
When you restrict yourself to breeding only to a all grand male, you are hurting yourself and the breed. For instance, you have two dogs, one outstanding dog that does not have an all grand ped, the other dog has an all grand, but lacks ability. Well if you have got to breed to an all grand, you just shortened yourself. There are a few high dollar pup factories out there, but believe me, they are there for their own pocket book, not your best interest. Most of these pup factories with up to lord knows how many all grand females, of which they have bought, are there for one reason MONEY, YOUR MONEY. Everybody loves to have titles, me included, but don't never budge an inch on ability and leave that all GRAND CLUB alone.

---

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Registered: Jan 2006
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Actually, I'd rather not have back the hounds we used to have. Things always become better over time in our minds eye, but doesnt anyone remember the hounds that hunted close, were trashy, and didnt stay treed? LOL

I doubt anyone promoting an All Grand Stud or female would deny breeding rights to a dog that they knew was a real solid hunter but didnt have a title. There's alot of people out there with all grand males and females that are working hard to better the breed..not just to make money. Lets try not to lump everyone into one class ok? It's crazy to think that a dog with a 3 or 4 gen all grand pedigree..comes from all me-too slick treeing idiots. There's plenty of coondog in there, and those traits are passed on and are inheritable. I swear more often than not the ones bashing the all grand programs are the ones that are too cheap or cant afford to try a pup out of it.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Sylva, North Carolina (the far Western Tip of the State)
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BASHING ANYONE FOR ANYTHING. OR TRYING TO LUMP ANYONE INTO ANY CERTAIN CLASS.

I'M JUST SAYING THAT I AGREE WITH THIS STATEMENT.

quote:

---

When you restrict yourself to breeding only to a all grand male, you are hurting yourself and the breed. For instance, you have two dogs, one outstanding dog that does not have an all grand ped, the other dog has an all grand, but lacks ability. Well if you have got to breed to an all grand, you just shortened yourself. There are a few high dollar pup factories out there, but believe me, they are there for their own pocket book, not your best interest. Most of these pup factories with up to lord knows how many all grand females, of which they have bought, are there for one reason MONEY, YOUR MONEY. Everybody loves to have titles, me included, but don't never budge an inch on ability and leave that all GRAND CLUB alone.

---

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Comer, Georgia
Posts: 4724

quote:

---

Originally posted by mjflores
Actually, I'd rather not have back the hounds we used to have. Things always become better over time in our minds eye, but doesnt anyone remember the hounds that hunted close, were trashy, and didnt stay treed? LOL

I doubt anyone promoting an All Grand Stud or female would deny breeding rights to a dog that they knew was a real solid hunter but didnt have a title. There's alot of people out there with all grand males and females that are working hard to better the breed..not just to make money. Lets try not to lump everyone into one class ok? It's crazy to think that a dog with a 3 or 4 gen all grand pedigree..comes from all me-too slick treeing idiots. There's plenty of coondog in there, and those traits are passed on and are inheritable. I swear more often than not the ones bashing the all grand programs are the ones that are too cheap or cant afford to try a pup out of it.

---

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Registered: Jun 2005
Location: North of Panama City Florida
Posts: 1014

who says a titled or all grand dog is more of a coondog than a 'pr' dog? i dont see how it improves your odds to get a pup to turn out to be a coondog, it takes more than just titled parents or even parents that are coondogs to make a pup with potential into a coondog... just because a dog has a nitech or grnitech title dosnt make it a coondog and dosnt mean its going to reproduce. an all grand pedigree dosnt mean its an all coondog pedigree

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Registered: Oct 2005
Location: Vernon, Alabama
Posts: 2382

The fact is,

People who have an All-Grand stud are alwasy going to promote him as an All-Grand, and how that's so much better than anything else out there. The people who's stud does not have an All-Grand pedigree are going to say that All-Grand means nothing, and that they wouldnt have one if it were given to them.


We will never know who is right because most probably both are wrong.

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Registered: Jul 2005
Location: minnesota
Posts: 1561

anyone that is a real coon hunter knows it means nothing its just paper if u ask me

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Registered: Jan 2006
Location: Everywhere
Posts: 2708

so, just to make sure I understand you Jim, only fake pretend coonhunters buy "All Grand" dogs? Is that what you're saying?

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Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 2767

A nice coondog with an all grand pedigree is worth more than the same calibre coondog that is not all grand.It is just chrome.

A $hiteater with an all grand pedigree is worth exactly the same as a $hiteater without an all grand pedigree....Nothing.

The All Grands get a bad rap in a lot of cases as people say they're just breeding papers,which is not good,but most of the all grand papers i own or have looked at are stacked from the ground up with the very best reproducing hunt winning coondogs on the planet,if that percentage wise doesn't increase the odds....nothing will.

To steal a TBall quote "it's all about percentages....stupid".lol

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