Registered: Jul 2003
Location: CANADA
Posts: 1903

Bruce, not every dog needs a track to tree a coon. I would say that around 45-50% of the 47 trees that my Grit dog has made he never made a ground bark. Just dissapeared in the dark, gone 10-15 mins and fell treed. I think that a good lay up dog is just as valuable as a good track dog. A lot of times around here in the winter time a coon wont hit the ground. Just comes out on a limb and curls up and goes to sleep. Then you need a lay up dog, a dog that will hunt with its head up and tree coon. The type of dog that is looking to get treed, if it has to run a track then so be it. but in the dead of winter a good lay up dog will show you more coon then a cold nosed track dog. That track dog will show you alot more dens then a lay up dog will. Again JMO.

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Registered: Dec 2003
Location: kellogg mn
Posts: 845

Hey Oakridge, are you going to Oaks this year? My son is going down and I told him to look you up. I think he's looking for a good female pup and I told him to take a hunt with you if he could. I know your dogs ain't real pretty, but I never seen a walker that was. {sorry, bluetickers just can't give it a rest} Anyways, I'm hoping he can get another one that will hold up his share of the work when we hunt together. You guys that just can't believe a dog can be 90%+ need to listen to Oakridge and Jackbob more and talk less, you just might learn something. Sounds to me like they've had a few worth feeding.

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: NE/MO
Posts: 579

quote:

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Originally posted by Oak Ridge
You are going to have to do a little better than that. Your 12 year old nephew is limited byhis ability, and hand/eye coordination.

The decision to "put er in park"and tree is guided by the dog. If they are certian a coon is there...then they park. Problem is that a lot of dogs tree when they can no longer run the track, and the guy at the other end of the lead makes excuses for them because of terrain......

A dog that goes 10 for 10 will be a better dog every night, every where. You are making excuses for missing! If they strike a coon, they should tree a coon...not a tree.

Your intital statement would be true if treeing a coon was a random act. It would be guided by the ratio of coon to trees. That is not how it works.....

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 2410

CooperCreek , my experience runs a parallel with yours ... but it wasn't always that way.

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Registered: Jan 2006
Location: bronaugh,MO
Posts: 2595

quote:

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Originally posted by CooperCreek
We're just gonna have to agree to disagree. A dog that can tree 10/10 in a sweet corn patch is proven no better than a dog that goes 8/10 in hollers of hard coons. Honestly, if I had to choose, I'd take the 8/10 hard coon dog than the 10/10 pop up sweet corn dog. I feel I'd have a better chance of having a real coon dog.

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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: mid-michigan
Posts: 4437

quote:

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Originally posted by CooperCreek
We're just gonna have to agree to disagree. A dog that can tree 10/10 in a sweet corn patch is proven no better than a dog that goes 8/10 in hollers of hard coons. Honestly, if I had to choose, I'd take the 8/10 hard coon dog than the 10/10 pop up sweet corn dog. I feel I'd have a better chance of having a real coon dog.

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BackWoods River Walkers/Beagles
Just all 'round , meat gettin' hounds.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 2410

Where there's smoke ..... there's fire.

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Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Gadsden, AL
Posts: 508

Every dog has his/her day!

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: North GA
Posts: 14388

quote:

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Originally posted by jackbob42
If a dog can go 10/10 in a sweetcorn patch , then why can't a dog go 10/10 in " hard coon " country?

What makes you guys think that if the coon are moving early , and a guy works till midnight , don't get home and get the dog loaded and out hunting till after 1 , that that dog ain't gonna run into some " hard " tracks?
Or like last week , temps into the mid 90's , dry as a bone. You think every track was a good track?
Heck , Georgia is supposed to be " hard coon " country , but if you'd take the time to look , northern dogs ( other than Jet 8 ) seem to get their share of the top ten down there at the Winter Classic.
You guys crack me up thinking conditions are " always " great up here. LOL

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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: mid-michigan
Posts: 4437

I'll admit that at times we've got it good.
But , at other times , not so good.
In the late fall/winter/early spring , when the ground is froze and the wind is blowing , there may be only a few large boar coon that venture out. There are some dogs up here that can/do track them old boars that 1/2 mile and farther and get them treed.

Accuracy don't have nothing to do with hot-nosed or cold-nosed. It has to do with the ratio of tracks treed and coon seen. That's it.

We could all give excuses ( too hot , too dry , too wet , too this or too that ) no matter where we live. But , as soon as we start with the excuses , the quality of our dogs go down.
Yup , some people will settle for 60% up here too , but not me !

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BackWoods River Walkers/Beagles
Just all 'round , meat gettin' hounds.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 2410

Dogs can be tricky ... and the truth is there are alot of real nice dogs that are accurate and tree coon consistantly but they are wimping out on the tough ones , switching off to hotter tracks and other stuff that we can't really tell just be listening .

You just can't describe what it's like to hunt with a dog that grinds out the tough tracks without pulling any tricks on us and will battle those tough boar coon with everything both of them have for the better part of an hour and then come treed with the meat.

An honest dog sometimes has to take chances .... I don't eat coon , wear them or hate them in general so I'm more interested in the sport of it and the challenge of raising and hunting those true freaks that teach us more than we do them ... couldn't care less about those 90% accurate , hot nosed , two minute track dogs .

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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: mid-michigan
Posts: 4437

quote:

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Originally posted by Justin Smith
Dogs can be tricky ... and the truth is there are alot of real nice dogs that are accurate and tree coon consistantly but they are wimping out on the tough ones , switching off to hotter tracks and other stuff that we can't really tell just be listening .

You just can't describe what it's like to hunt with a dog that grinds out the tough tracks without pulling any tricks on us and will battle those tough boar coon with everything both of them have for the better part of an hour and then come treed with the meat.

An honest dog sometimes has to take chances .... I don't eat coon , wear them or hate them in general so I'm more interested in the sport of it and the challenge of raising and hunting those true freaks that teach us more than we do them ... couldn't care less about those 90% accurate , hot nosed , two minute track dogs .

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BackWoods River Walkers/Beagles
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Registered: Jun 2004
Location: indpls
Posts: 45

two dogs treed , 30 yds further 1 dog treed , the one dog has the coon , never trees with the other dogs unless there is a coon , or at least almost never ,

2 dogs treed , third dog wont tree , no coon seen , my kind of dog , 100% or not , if the other dogs slick and mine goes on , that the dog for me

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Registered: Dec 2003
Location: kellogg mn
Posts: 845

Justin, a dog that wimps out on the tough ones is not a nice dog. He's a candidate for a dirt nap.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Los Angeles, MN
Posts: 4236

A lot of big talk on this thread.

A few years ago I hunted a female that never missed, she was slow and methodical, I couldent stand her and gave her away.

Accuracy dosent tell the whole story on a dog, Ill take the dog that trees 4 coonb and misses once over the dog that trees one coon and dosent miss....I can train the first dog, I cant train the second.

Let the big typing continue.......

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 2410

My point is that you can't always tell by listening ... 99% of hunters out there would be in shock if I drug them in and snuck up on their hound so they could actually see what was going on .

If your dog never gets into any real down and dirty battles and has to take some chances then it's not because he's so great ..

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Talala, Oklahoma
Posts: 5208

Most dogs are more accurate on the computer than they are on the woods.

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Registered: Sep 2005
Location:
Posts: 974

sorry track dogs and dumb treedogs miss coon, if your dog is missing 4 out of 10 he falls into one of those groups.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Talala, Oklahoma
Posts: 5208

There has been a lot of good discussion on this thread.

Josh and Larry, you make a lot of sense. I think we probably see things similarly.

About accuracy differing in different kinds of hunting conditions...I don't so much know about that.

I do know that in the winter time, the same dog will tree more coon on the outside here in Kansas than it will in the Ozarks where every other tree is hollow.

There is a big difference hunting here than in the big hills with all the Post Oak and Blackjack dens.

We talk about dogs "making it to their den" up here, but back home, there were dens trees everywhere. It was a lot easier for a dog to "make it" to a hollow tree there.

My old Belle female, old Sue's mother, was as accurate a dog as i have ever followed. One winter I hunted with a top notch tree climber and we packed an axe, and I don't think she missed a coon all winter.

She didn't grade tracks, either. She would tree coon other dogs couldn't open on.

However, when I moved to Kansas, where coon were thicker, dogs treed some coon behind her. In a litter of kittens, she would generally run the old sow out and tree her. I loved old Belle back where coon were scarce and hard to tree, but Sue is a better hound here than her mother ever was, as far as treeing more coon on less acres of ground. And she can do a good job on those bad February coon too.

So accuracy is only one characteristic. I demand an accurate dog, but I am mainly interested in coon treeing ability, period.

I want those suckers treeing as many coon as they can as long as I am out there.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Talala, Oklahoma
Posts: 5208

quote:

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Originally posted by Voyd Cannon
sorry track dogs and dumb treedogs miss coon, if your dog is missing 4 out of 10 he falls into one of those groups.

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Registered: May 2004
Location: Kentucky Wildcat Country
Posts: 4600

I dont think anyone can speak for anyone else, but they can tell their experiences. I had a little female that was accurate enough for me here. You would look at about 6 out of 10 with the leaves on. Prolly 8 out of 10 in winter. Generally, when she came treed, I could tell you if she had meat, by the way she came treed.I took a little trip with the ole lady and got her one of those hot tub rooms in central Ind. I found some public land to hunt. She treed 5 singles in a little place no bigger than a Football field. The coons were different than I was used to. You could pull off a tree and walk 20 yards, cut loose and hit a running coon that would only run 30 or 40 yards and go srait up. And the funny thing is those coon would run srait by the tree you just treed. I got skeered and thought," I aint posed to be hunting here" and went and found somebody to ask. They said "yea hunt all you want, having any luck?" " having any luck, man those coon are running over one another, I dont see what keeps them from getting diseased". That is just one experience. I usually try to take at least one trip a year to some place with a heavy coon Population, in season. The results are always pretty much the same and I cant even remember any of my dogs missing over the years.

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Registered: May 2004
Location: Kentucky Wildcat Country
Posts: 4600

On top of that, the hunting in Tenn and North Georgia is worse than ours. Them Tenn fellers come up here to hunt and get in more coon. I feel sorry for them. Then you got them poor fellers hunting them Swamps, Muck up to your waist while you are hunting. I would quit if I had to hunt that stuff.

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 6168

First off....I never said that this 90% accurate dog was the best dog in the world. Don't think he is.....he has faults that I will be happy to discuss with anyone that wants to talk about it....

I've hunted him in December in Indiana when it was 12 degrees in a 30 MPH wind and a foot of snow...he treed coon and did not miss.

I've hunted him in Michigan, it was 4 degrees, a foot of snow...he treed coon.

I've hunted him in the swamps of South Carolina, the mountains of Tennessee, and in the hills an hollers of Soutern Indiana. The results are the same, he just does not tree unless there is a coon there. And you had better not turn him loose if you don't have a reasonable expectation that there is a coon in the area to be treed.

I will agree with you that at times it is "easy" to tree a coon in the cornfields of Indiana... and if you think that is what I am basing my opinion on....think again. I travel the country on the weekends, I go hunting. I hunt my dogs in the nastiest stuff I can find during the week, so I don't have those "easy pop up type of dogs. I've been hunting in Indiana for 35 years, and that is really no challenge for me, and I don't necessarily think that it makes a dog "better".....it's sweet for training a pup...but I have found that it makes them dependant on "easy" coon and does not make a balanced dog.

I finished the dog to Grand, and took 150 minus points along the way...75 I gave him....and 75 he earned by locating in a hole that he did not stay in. I hunted him in four states in 90 days....he did the same thing in all of them.....when he parked it....he had a coon, and he won 87% of his casts by doing so.

I'll see you all at Atumn Oaks....I'll be int he breeder's Showcase.




.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Talala, Oklahoma
Posts: 5208

Joe, I am sure you have a top hound, and I was in no way impugning your dog or your opinion.

A lot of people have never hunted with a top hound, sadly.

I am pretty certain you have one.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 2410

Joe , you have quite a way of steering a conversation .

Down here , we can hit some easy creeks with cattle pasture on either side ... pecan bottoms when the pecans are ripe and have some fun .

In the same night though , we can wait til' about two or three in the morning and hit some places that have two miles sections of nothing but nasty green briars , canyon after canyon ..after canyon ... a coon that wants to run in that stuff is tough to tree and have on a limb more than 99 out of a 100 times even for my dog ,lol.

We have one place full of coon but it's backwater from the Deep Fork that goes for miles and the coon can just plain make better time in it than the dogs and will criss-cross the river several times ... skim across the mud while your dog bogs down and on and on . The only way to consistantly put those coon up is to have a track dog that is fast , cold nosed , smart and willing to grind them out ... and sometimes when the coon are running ahead of your dog then the dog can pick the tree the coon climbed but the coon decides where to go after that .

To say that hunting is the same everywhere is just not true ... not even from one side of a county to the other is it the same around here.

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