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Joe i see that you and Dave pick at each other a lot and at times it is intertaning , i was just wondering how long you have been breeding because i grew up with my dad breeding beagles then i did for a long time, i have raised a few coon dog pups it is just interesting see different peoples way of doing things.

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Hmmm I don't know? See, I don't think we can teach a dog to track either. A dog is going to track however its genetics dictates.

I started out messing with pups by using drags and rolling cages, and I ruined a couple. Then I made the decision that I wanted naturals. The longer I have been doing this the less I mess with pups.

I may be wrong, but I really believe I have had an easier time starting my last 3 dogs than any except for my 1st male. Now, I am not saying I leave them in the pen until they are ready because that would be false. I spend a lot of time with them in the woods providing them opportunities that are real world. I do hunt them a little bit with older dogs, but switch them to hunting by their selves as soon as I see they can tree a coon.

I do know I have seen 9-12 week old pups run track so I am pretty sure no one taught them to run track.

We would like to think we train dogs to hunt out, run track, and tree but I don't think we do. How hard a dog hunts, how a dog runs track, and how a dog trees is all in the genetics.

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Larry Atherton

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I'd say some training pins are fine if the timing is right and its limited.A lot of these pups prolly get shipped up there when there not ready to do all this running and treeing.I feel like too much of anything can kinda brainwash
pups.

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Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Burlington, CT
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A couple point of clarification and explanation...

Joe and I used to hunt together, and did all this "ribbing one another" in the truck and in the woods. Then I moved up North, and we had to do it over the phone. Now Joe and I work opposite shifts, so we have to do it on the web, for everyone's entertainment!

My approach is by far not perfect, and I'm not as consistent as I would like to be becasue of time and other excuses I come up with! But, it's similar to Larry's approach, for the same reasons Larry provided. I do some socialization, and some exposure work with the pups, hunt them with other dogs until they start running and treeing and then immediately start hunting them by themselves, before they pick-up any bad habits!

That's why I asked this question about starter pens, because many are described as filling a need of "exposure" to plenty of coon. And I ask myself, is that what a dog really needs??? And to Matt's point, how do you know if they're ready??? I've had some success with some early starting dogs, but the litter before last appeared like many of them didn't catch on until 10-12 months. So what good would exposure have done, if they weren't ready to learn or demonstrate anything?

And more importantly, if exposure hadn't worked for these pups, and the "starter" couldn't get them started, would we have written them off?

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I don't consider myself to be even close to being an expert on breeding or training dogs. However, Pups, just as children, don't mature at the same time!!! So the idea of a training pen would be a great idea, if the pup was ready to learn. Heck, I wish i had a 5 acre pen not stocked with coons or other game, just a good place to allow a pup to grow up and physically and mentally mature. Genetics does play a major role in creating good quality coonhounds. However, good dog trainers who are patient and do what is best for that particular pup is just as important!!!! Too many times pups are culled and given up on because they are compared to other littermates. Personally, I have a hard time with people comparing 6 to 10 month old pups that have not had an equal chance..


thanks,

Bryan W.

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Dave,

I do sort of cheat. I know many of the denning areas where sows often raise litters. Except for after the first 2 weeks of October, I can usually cut a dog where it will strike a coon within 100 yards. This makes it easier to start young dogs.

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Larry Atherton

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Absolutely... Setting them up for a quick strike, goes a long way to confidence building!

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David Schmidt
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*** Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.***

OK, new topic near and dear to a few of us that frequent the coffee shop... the National Hound and Tree Dog Association.

Joe and I with a couple others, started the first ever national non-profit dedicated to promoting and protecting the sport of pursuing game with hounds and tree dogs. We've publicized it as much as we can afford, and have nearly 270 Facebook fans on the NHTDA page. But, less than a dozen members, several weeks into it!

What's the issue? Are people not interested in joining a national association, like Pheasants Forever or NWTF, but for Houndsmen and Tree Dog owners? Is $20 too much to ask for annual membership? Are people waiting for their tax return? Is it a matter of trust, or is it something else???

If you haven't see it, check out NHTDA.org

And then let me know your thoughts.

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David Schmidt
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Wow... still crickets!?! Not the normal chatter in the coffee shop...

Let me see if I can jump start the conversation. As Joe and I've been thinking about this for years, and under serious development for the past 4-5 months, we've heard the same common themes. People saying:
"The majority of houndsmen, just don't care!"

"Coon hunters are lazy, and won't hardly do anything but complain!"

"Unless you bribe them with a banquet or some sort of
give-away, they won't care!"

"Houndsmen will likely sit by, and let their dog ownership and hunting rights, be taken away, while they do little more than complain!"


Now all of these are generalities, of course, and not intended for every houndsmen out there, but it is true??? Are we really that lazy as group of sportsmen/women? Is there no hope?!? I ask because, even some of the people making these comments, are sitting idly by and acting just like the folks they're complaining about.

How do we break this vicious circle, spiraling down the toilet? OR am I and they wrong, and our sport is going to be just fine???

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David Schmidt
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It's broke by taken and getting the youth actively involved in the sport! If my son has a camp out ( normally 15 teenage boys ) I just show up with the hounds and turn them loose! Lol after they open up all 15 boys walk to the tree and check it out etc. Even the ones who have never hunted anything really get into it. Same goes for my daughter & niece. On both of there " first dates " I made them go coon hunting and bring their dates! They love it! I get text from their boy friends all the wanting to go coon hunting! If we want to keep tree dogs alive we're going have to stop worrying about splitting hairs with each other and do what it takes to get the youth in the woods!

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I think that's a big part of it... getting the next generation started. But this generation needs to do what it can to protect the sport and our rights, so that the next generation will have the same privileges.

Otherwise we'll have a bunch of youngsters that would love to go hunting with hounds, but aren't allowed!

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In the heyday of coonhunting .. dog food and gas was cheap ... many households got by with just the man working and the wife staying at home ... and many of the bigtime coonhunters ( or horsemen or cockers or whatever) that seemed to have time for all the promoting and extra stuff were horrible husbands and fathers and employees.

Times have changed , alot of women work and men shared the diaper changing ..... and most men , I think .. try to be alot better fathers than many of us had ... coonhunting is just not as important as job and family.

Used to , a skilled construction guy could make top dollar all around town ... not so today , we only get top dollar after years of staying with a company and we can't afford to start over at the bottom or go back to school and feed a family.

Times have changed ...

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Totally agree with the cost! I only live 6 miles from our club house and on average I'd say I spend $50 to $60 at a hunt between entry fees, gas, & food. And like I said that's only traveling 6 miles.
Another factor is only holding hunts on Friday & Saturday nights. With me working off my wife feels like Friday & Saturday nights should be spent with her and or the family. Rightfully so! Maybe some week night hunts would help, idk.

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But guys, the fact that times have changed is sort of my point...

Gone are the days that you can find ample places to hunt, where someone hasn't been poisoned into beleiveing that we're dangerous or risky to have on their property. And the anti movment is gaining more and more momentum everyday. They're not coming to your house to take your dogs or guns, but they are affecting public opinion on a massive level. And because of misinformation, some of the anti's goals are getting support from fellow hunters and outdoorsman/women that just don't understand our sport! Long-term this will destroy our sport, short-term it's likely to become even more difficult and expensive to do what we love.

Which means what... if we want our youth to have a future in our sport, we need to do more than complain about it, and pick fights with one another. We need to organize and collaborate at the national level. State and breed associations, need to work with other state and breed associations on common goals. And how do you do that, without letting go of you local and primary objectives???

Simple... you keep doing what you're doing AND you work with a National Association, like the NHTDA, to work on the bigger more broad objectives!

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David Schmidt
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I looked it up, but the only thing I found was the facebook page. Is there a home ( web ) page for it?

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NHTDA.org

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David Schmidt
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When I google that it just shows the fb link.

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You don't need to google it, just enter it as the web address.

Our website is new, so it will take awhile for all the spiders/crawlers and whatever else search engines use, to find our meta data (key words).

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David Schmidt
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Ok got ya

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You know what is sad? If I am understanding this correctly, there is at least one state out west that lost it's right to free cast hounds for Mountain Lion.....this happened in the last day or so!

Don't for a second think that the state organization there didn't do everything in it's power to head off the loss of rights....I'm certain they did, but the safety is in NUMBERS.

On January 1, 2014 Ducks unlimited reported that they had a direct influence over 118,423,660 acres of wildlife habitat in North America. How do you think they manage that? Through numbers. Does anyone believe that there are more duck hunters in the US than houndsmen? I don't know if there are or not, but I know that at some point the bird hunters in the US decided to take front and center in the fight to preserve not only the right to hunt migratory birds, but to also manage the FUTURE of migratory birds.

In 1982 Pheasants Forever founded and in it's first year had 500 members, by 2008 projects from Pheasants Forever influenced 5 Million acres in North America, and by 2014 they now report a membership of 125,000 members.

Both of these organizations have grown to the point where they are influential in national legislation, have direct impact into each and every Farm Bill passed by the US Congress, and signed by the President.

Yet we as tree dog enthusiast and houndsmen are willing to stand on the sidelines and watch our brothers and sisters lose ground, lose rights, lose seasons, battle with state level DNR branches over the biology of our chosen game. We all think "someone should do something", and yet we get angry when things go bad for us.

Well folks, there is a new kid in town, the National Hound and Tree Dog Association. While they are well aware that they have a tall order and a mountain of issues to deal with, it's high time that someone does something...

So how can you help? It really is very simple. They have a web site http://NHTDA.ORG The web site is FREE, there is a message board, a rundown of projects that they are working on, and an area for you to throw out ideas and suggestions That is step #1....BECOME INVOLVED. At the simple participation level, it costs you nothing.

Step #2 is to become a member. Step #3 is to become a volunteer.

The NHTDA has reached out to the major registries, and have received minimal offers of assistance. I have yet to see one registry that doesn't agree that an organization of this nature is needed, and they are willing to sell us advertisement in magazines, but if we are waiting for the registries to jump in with both feet to fight for our right to free cast dogs....they haven't done it yet, so I'm not sure that they are going to in the near future. It's up to us as hunters, as houndsmen to preserve the heritage that is hunting with hounds and tree dogs.

Right now, we have a small group of people following on Facebook. While that is a start, we need your thoughts, your ideas, your support.

Again, that is http://NHTDA.ORG

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Thanks so much guys for putting forth the effort to make a difference in a sport we all love.

Sending my membership support out tomorrow. Will be in touch to see what I can do to help.

Again Thank You!!

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Thank you Dave, your support is much appreciated!

And how about the rest of you??? C'mon, I know you're reading this. What is preventing you from joining us???

If it's concern over what will happen with your hard earned dollars, I assure you it will go to fighting the cause. Not only because that's Joe's, mine and the rest of the team's intent, but also because we'll go to jail if it doesn't!!! That's right, we're a national non-profit, audited by Indiana (where we're incorporated) as well as the IRS. We legally can't do anything other than our charter of charitable and conservation efforts.

But as I've stated elsewhere... we're asking you to trust us, yes. But if you don't trust us, do you simply trust that the anti's will go away??? Do you trust or just hope that our sport will be here forever? Or do you join us...

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I'll bet most of you "non-joiners" have been to Whitetails Unlimited , NWTF, and DU banquets and fooled away more money on raffle tickets than it would cost you to join this organization! I'll also bet most of you spend more time enjoying your dogs than you do pursuing the wildlife sanctioned by those other organizations. Well, this organization might not save the sport of hunting with tree dogs if you join, but if you don't, you might be lucky if your grandchildren are able to enjoy this great sport. You have two good men that are donating more of their time than you can imagine to help you. Open your wallets and help them out a little.

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I'll bet most of you "non-joiners" have been to Whitetails Unlimited , NWTF, and DU banquets and fooled away more money on raffle tickets than it would cost you to join this organization! I'll also bet most of you spend more time enjoying your dogs than you do pursuing the wildlife sanctioned by those other organizations. Well, this organization might not save the sport of hunting with tree dogs if you join, but if you don't, you might be lucky if your grandchildren are able to enjoy this great sport. You have two good men that are donating more of their time than you can imagine to help you. Open your wallets and help them out a little.

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I'd like to elaborate a bit on registries... their primary role is a kennel club, not a hunt club. As sporting dog owners, we're under attack on two fronts, our hunting rights and our dog ownership rights. PETA for example is against hunting of course, but they also don't believe there should be such a thing as a pet of any kind!

So... the registries are busy fighting the dog ownership battles, and that means that the hunting rights of sportsmen needs to be covered by someone else. AND someone that can grow-up to compete with the likes of PETA and HSUS, which means a National organization. Hence the National Hound and Tree Dog Association!

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