Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Burlington, CT
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quote:

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Originally posted by Jackson87
Dave I hope I didn't come off that way.I like these kinda threads cause they are about thinking outside the box.Im ready for Joe to comment.

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David Schmidt
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Joe - I've been running that over and over in my head, and I vaguely recall one evening back on the river, when Coot was treed and Boom was split very near by. I had them both leashed, and shot Coot's coon out first. Then I went to Boom and let him tree awhile, but everytime he so much as looked in her direction, while she was chewing and growling on that coon, I yelled at him to "get back on that tree!"

As you know, even a harsh word can turn Boom around, so perhaps this was partially my doing. I may have overly reinforced his independent nature! If he was ever real late coming even by the tree, I yelled at him to get going. So... in my desire to have an independent tree dog, I may have created, what I even call an "overly indpependent" tree dog.

That has come up in some threads, in the past, and folks have asked, "how can a dog be "overly" independent?" And my answer has been, when it is so much they nearly refuse to tree with another dog.

Now Boom will tree with other dogs, and has often treed with my other independent dog, but rarely with a strange dog. But as you said, when you think back, it may very well be those snap judgements we make in the woods, when they're younger that mold their behavior when they're older.

These dogs have a lot of natural ability, but we forget the lasting impact all of us have on them, on any given night. But if all that is true, then my hypothesis is correct; that independence is nature, but how it affects them or "manifests" can be nurture.

Well... that was therapeutic!

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David Schmidt
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Its obvious Mr. Dave that both play a part in the way a hound operates in the woods. The tools he has to get the job done are given to him by nature the way he learned to use them was created by nurture.

They have cloned herds of cows, but the pecking order of the cloned herd was not the same as the original one. So even though they looked alike and had the same genes their learned attitude was totally different.

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That's a very good analogy!

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David Schmidt
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Mark - I lost mine to a car, but there's one in South Carolina and Indiana doing well. I hope to see the one in Indiana, over the holidays.

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David Schmidt
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*** Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.***

Another new topic...

I had a friend send me a couple DVDs of some cat and bear hunting with hounds, and it got me to thinking... who's really hunting in a guided "hunt"???

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad people are out harvesting game, and I'm glad people are able to make some money guiding these hunts, over hounds. But for the client with a tag, do you really call that, hunting?

The houndsman is training and maintaining his pack. He/she is out checking and setting baits. There up at the crack of dawn, or usually before looking for tracks to cut, and they're the one that has everything to lose, if that lion or bear gets the best of their pack. Then in walks the client, who shoots the game in the tree. From the client's perspective, do we call that hunting, or "shooting"???

This is sort of like the guided deer hunt... the guide puts in the food plots, does all the scouting, hangs the stands, cuts the shooting lanes, and tells the client what stand to be in, under what conditions. The client does as they're told, and when that monster buck does, as expected, the client bags a big one! Was that hunting, or simply shooting???

This is in regards to the client, not the outfitter. It just seems that the outfitter is doing everything, the rest of us know to be all the work that goes into a hunt.

I'm not trying to dig at these clients, as they may not have lives or careers that allow them to put in all the time. And I'm glad some of our fellow hunters can make a living, at what they love. Something just seems odd about what some call hunting, these days...

Thoughts???

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David Schmidt
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Last edited by deschmidt27 on 11-03-2013 at 04:33 PM

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Dave,

We are too few. It doesn't pay for us to question fellow hunters due to differing methods as long as those methods are legal.

It only aids our enemies.

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Larry Atherton

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I see what your sayin Dave.Id say there paying for the exsperiance.My dream hunt is a mountain lion hunt with hounds.That would be awesome!!!It wouldnt take much talent on my part other than the shooting but I wouldn't think that would make it any less awesome.Some people don't have the woods or talent to hunt and kill mature bucks like some of us do so they have to pay for a guided hunt.I don't have the territory or exsperiance to go on a cat hunt without a guide so I'd have to hire one.Them city slickers that pay to kill a 200 inch buck in my eyes have no bragging rights.

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Larry - you have a good point.

Matt - you do as well, and perhaps the aspect I was struggling with! It's not that they're not "hunting" and out for the experience. Again not everyone has the same ability, be it due to time or land access etc., to do what others of us do. BUT, acknowledging the difference is probably the key. If someone pays to hunt and acquire a 200 inch buck, don't brag on it, as if it was a greater accomplishment than someone who did it all themselves and got a 120 inch buck.

And Larry, just so you know where I'm coming from... I've been joining a friend in the UP during the summer training season, for bear,as well as just getting back from a hunt. And I've caught myself saying that I'm going or have been hunting, but in my own tree stand the other day, I thought to myself, that it's really my buddy Dan that does all the work, and is really hunting. I'm more of a spectator!

So I'm lumping myself in with the group of people, I'm being critical of.

Just some random thoughts, in the coffee shop...

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David Schmidt
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I have a friend in the upper peninsula of Michigan that I try to get up to go bear hunting every year for about the last four or five years. There is no doubt he does the work and makes the investment. I haven't even drawn a tag before so its not about killing a bear. I have watched as many of them were shot out of trees or even while being bayed on the ground and have hiked many miles through the Northern MI wilderness to see this. To me it is kinda like coon hunting it doesn't really matter who pulls the trigger.

I love it and just wish I had the opportunity to get into it myself. There is not to many bears in Indiana.

I understand what your saying but for me it is definitely not about killing a bear. But I am a hound guy through and through and we are all kinda weird like that I guess.

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Mike Gibson

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What you described is what I've been doing, as well. And so I guess it really is a philosophical question, as to whether we describe what we've been doing as hunting. I caught myself the other day, describing a "hunt" I went on, but trying to explain to a non-hounsdman, that I wasn't really doing the "hunting". Their confusion got me to thinking...

Again, I'm not trying to blast the guides or the clients. I just don't want to diminish what those houndsman do, by calling what I do, as "hunting", as if it was on the same level as what they do every day.

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David Schmidt
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Last edited by deschmidt27 on 11-04-2013 at 04:30 PM

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It's kind of like going on a "ride along" with my cousin, who's a cop. He's policing a neighborhood... I'm just tagging along.

I did so for the experience and it was cool, just like going on these bear hunts. But somehow I feel the need to differentiate between what I'm doing, and what they have invested.

Again... It's just sort of a random thought, with probably no right or wrong answer.

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David Schmidt
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My brother was one of the top lion hunting guides in Colorado a number of years ago before he died. He would catch 30 a year for "clients". I went on a number of those hunts - both successful and unsuccessful. These hunters would walk for hours a day sometimes and never catch a lion. They might do it for a whole week. If a whitetail hunter in WI can sit in a variety of bow stands and never get his heart rate above 90 and say he is whitetail hunting, why can't a guy that is busting his ass with a guide for a week say he is bear or lion hunting. Hunting with dogs is a fickle sport. Sometimes it rains, sometimes it shines. If a person has the heart to accept each, they are a hunter. They have just chosen to do it in a different manner. I am not picking on bow or gun hunters in WI. I love to do it (just bagged a nice 9 pointer Sat. night) however, I will say that anyone that hunts with dogs whether they are the trainer or not is in for a harder hunt than most still hunters and must have the right frame of mind to endure the trials and tribulations that go on with dog hunting - that is a hunter in my book.

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You may be right, Rick!

In the few bear hunts I've been on, we logged a lot of hours, and even did some sprinting through swamps. So maybe I shouldn't diminish what I or the clients do, but rather raise more awareness to the year long effort these guides do.

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David Schmidt
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Now you are on the right track, Dave.

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Anyone on here remember the Hamburger King in ADA?
It would always have a nice crowd of the old coonhunters. Man, Those were the days…

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For me, it was the "Pickle Barrel" outside of Knox, IN. My older buddy Steve Thomas, and I, used to stop in there on Sunday mornings.

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David Schmidt
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Last night, I was hunting a large farm, about 3 miles from the center of town, and over a mile from the nearest subdivision. In fact, I was on the outside of a 4-lane by-pass of the town. But, as I was coming out of the woods, I noticed a whole lot of lights pointed in my direction, and then noticed the three squad cars and four officers! I laid my gun up against my truck and then approached the figures behind all the spot lights! One of the officers asked what I had laid up against the truck, and I responded that it was my .22 rifle. He asked what I thought I was doing, and I answered, "coon hunting". He then told me that I was illegally in possession of a rifle, within the town's jurisdiction.

Now, I was aware of the rifle ban because I happen to deer hunt inside the bypass, but I thought the ban was only within the city limits, and to be honest I was only thinking about the .243 I normally deer hunt with, not my .22 coon hunting rifle. So I asked, "you mean to tell me, I can't coon hunt on this farm?" And he responded, "you can as long as you don't use any rifle or pistol, of any kind!" He then proceeded to describe the area in which this applied, which apparently included the whole "township" not just "town", which covered another 2 miles to the North!

I looked up the municipal code, and it reads:

D. Rifle prohibition. No person shall discharge nor cause the discharge of any rifle, firearm, whether pistol or shoulder stock, within the territorial limits of the Town. A rifle firearm shall be construed as any firearm having a grooved barrel and upon discharge projecting a solid missile or slug.

SO... I guess you can use a smooth bore shotgun, but even an air rifle, is not allowed! By the way, this covers the muzzle loaders, and rifles with slug barrels, normally used for deer hunting on the 20+ farms in this jurisdiction. I wonder if all those deer hunters know that?!?

I'm contacting the local authorities, for clarification, but according to the officer last night, the term "territorial limits" apparently means the whole township!

So... I guess to remove those coons the farmers have requested, I'll need to go buy a smooth bore shotgun. But when that goes off, in the middle of the night, I wonder if that will break any noise ordinances???

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David Schmidt
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That sounds like a bad night Dave.ThAt just goes to show were being over run by city slickers.Its a shame the police officers have no respect or sympathy for hunters.Did they give you a ticket?

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They were at least that sympathetic... No ticket, not even a written warning. But if I really can't hunt those three farms, it will really hurt!

In fact, there's some state public hunting ground within the boundaries they described! There will be a lot of tickets out there come gun season, unless everyone's hunting with smooth bore barrels!?!

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David Schmidt
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Dave,
I see a comma before and after the word "firearm", in subsection "d". As written in your post, this would lead me to think that a smooth bore would also be included in the ban. Looks like it's time for the bow, I saw some guys on the pursuit channel using a bow to shoot coon.

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I saw that too, but then thought it would have just been called, Firearms Prohibition. And then they specifically defined the grooved barrel. Since I'm already questioning there intelligence, I chalked it up as a grammatical error!

I don't know... I struggle to hit a big deer with a bow and arrow!

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David Schmidt
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Do you think there might be some interest in that township of changing that law. Perhaps you could get it changed and elected to the town board all in one election

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Well... so far my email to the counsil was forwarded to the chief of police. I also got a "read-receipt" from the local conservation officer, but haven't seen a response.

IF, what the police officer said was true, and this prohibition extends to rifled shotguns and muzzle-loaders, within the entire township. AND once people become aware of that, yes there will most certainly be a lot of sportsman interested in the change.

I don't know about the town board, but it will be an opportunity to bring deer and coonhunters together!!!

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David Schmidt
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Well... I must have uncovered a surprise! I received an email response from my friend at the DNR, saying he needed a couple days to get with the town...

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David Schmidt
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