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408northville
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Registered: Sep 2006
Location: texas
Posts: 144

Tell me more, how do you go about breeding dogs that compliment each other.? Where can someone find out more information about breeding this way?




quote:
Originally posted by StumpGrinder
Numbers mean absolutely nothing! Breed dogs that compliment each other, if it doesn't work don't use em and start over. Good gosh guys get off the number kick.

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rance56
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who would have thought, all we would need to do is google some articles on genetics and we could perfect a breeding progrma just by some formulas and equations, lol.

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408northville
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Registered: Sep 2006
Location: texas
Posts: 144

Re: stump and 408

Where talking about hounds and how to add traits that are missing, not horses, not short horn cows, not long horn cows or any other type of herbivore, which have absolutely nothing to do with hounds who are carnivores.



quote:
Originally posted by Tom Jones
stump, its a debate i guess.

408...........the way I said is exactly how the foundation quarter horse assoc. does their % to see if horses qualify and what % they are. you can yabba dabba doo bout all your numbers you want but the simple fact is they carry 50% from mommy and 50% from daddy, anything in the fourth can be no less then 6.25%. Im talking blood here, not silly chromosones and etc which some think they have all figured out,,,,,,,,,,,,good for you doc. btw: go look at the dogs that have won wrld titles and etc. lots of them are outcrosses and they reproduce also. doc bar x poco mares............find me a cuttin horse who dont carry this blood, complete outcross, look how many in the 60-70-80's carried this blood that finished in the top 50 in the ncha futurity. doc bar wasnt even cow bred, kinda like adding a lil bird dog huh

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ov_blues
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Registered: Feb 2007
Location: Pomeroy, Ohio
Posts: 2843

SOME POSTS ON THIS THREAD

JOHN II
Early Starting, Hard treeing Stay put tree dogs

BULLET II
The old dog threw hounds that anybody could train to their way of hunting. Very fast on track and true one bark tree dogs.

BULLET AND RATTLER
it seams to me the bullet and rattler dogs realy cover the country and most of the rattler dogs have a pretty lose mouth on strike jmo

early easy starting, one bark quick locators, fast-usually leading the pack, good mouths, stay put tree dogs with good locates and changeovers, if they are doing something they wont pull bascially no matter what, if they dont have something going on they will pack, competative type dogs. not mean or agressive, but will stay treed.

hunted with enough Bullet dogs to know that they tree layed up coons more often than most lines of dogs.


SKUNK CREEK DOGS
Skunk creek dogs are the best track dogs I've seen go,not just stick yur nose down and work there the kind that run with there heads up LOOKING for a coon not just run around till the find one,of all the blue dogs I've hunted with skunk creek dogs have the best head on there shoulders when it comes to finding a coon and getting him to a tree!

JET
Im a jet guy and love them. Only thing I believe would have put them over the top would be nose power. Not saying there's not crosses out there that don't have colder noses but the older jet breeding where pretty medium nose hounds. I'm making a cross now with my jet male and my levi female that should put alot more nose in them. Easy handling fast starting. jmo

CLEAR RIVER JIM X CLEAR RIVER SLAMMER
They seem to put brains, mouths, pups that hunt naturally, start real easy, like to wind, and they look up because of the winding. Accuracy vs amount of trees, color domination, and how soon their pups mature is the difference in what the two brothers throw in their pups. The bad is they will throw some dogs that do some chewing on the tree ( a complete fault to some and not an issue to others), they will run some junk but smart enough to be broke easily, and CR Jimmy's pups want to be real accurate(again preference).

WILLSCREEK
my hounds are generally very intelligent,easy to start and natural treedogs with little or no chewing and no jacking(a peeve of mine),i have worked to keep a 65lb tight built male with a nice blocky hound head, with most being saddle backed---they have much better mouths than the ones i started with and are virtually trash free when handled correctly,they also hunt the way you turn em as this is something i really must have along with being accurate from the time they start treeing......they have proven themselves in competition for 6 generations now under my guidance.........my hounds please me and i dont need to raise 50 pups to get a nice one anymore.

i am always looking to add a hard hunting, lock down on the locate,stay put treedog to the mix but its the individual strengths and weakness as i see it that dictate the individuals that are mated................most of mine will get the track moving before they get struck--like it to be a little quicker but hate a loose mouth and will not hunt a silent one.

SHELTON MORRIS' OLD BOOMER
One thing I would like to bring up is the All Blue, (no tan trim) dog. I am hunting some now that go back to Shelton Morris' old Boomer stock. As a general rule, they run with their head up, pretty darn quick and know how to tree and you don't have to cup your hand to your ear to hear them. Back to the All Blue thing. It seems that no matter how good a dog is, coloration sometimes henders them. Why is that? English folks don't mind and I've seen some dang sorry walkers as well. Good is good no matter the size, color ect... I've had good luck with these dogs and I think I will keep them for a while. JMO, which won't get you much these days.

RAMBO II
I've hunted with enough Rambo II dogs to know that Rambo II put loud mouths,independence,and good conformation in his pups.

DANCER, SON, HILLBILLY, JET 8, GAUGE, GROVER, DOUBLE BARREL DURANGO, PIE, BRUMMY
The ones that I've hunted with on this list don't care what another dog is doing, they actually prefer to be split, are willing to go hunting harder and FASTER than the competition and are wanting to get treed not waller around on a track all night and will stay treed until you get there.

SUGAR
The Sugar female I believe passed on a trait of being competive with other dogs. I have hunted with a few going back to her which were better in a cast than alone. They just will try twice as hard to beat the other dogs. In the last few world hunts several go back to her Saline Sadie, Layup Lucy, Bocephus, Flo, and I think last years male of Mr. Duncan. Not to mention all the other good dogs going back to her.

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Last edited by ov_blues on 09-20-2013 at 07:14 PM

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408northville
Banned

Registered: Sep 2006
Location: texas
Posts: 144

Re: SOME POSTS ON THIS THREAD

John,

I like the Willscreek listed below, I also look for those things in a hound.

JTG



quote:
Originally posted by ov_blues
JOHN II
Early Starting, Hard treeing Stay put tree dogs

BULLET II
The old dog threw hounds that anybody could train to their way of hunting. Very fast on track and true one bark tree dogs.

BULLET AND RATTLER
it seams to me the bullet and rattler dogs realy cover the country and most of the rattler dogs have a pretty lose mouth on strike jmo

early easy starting, one bark quick locators, fast-usually leading the pack, good mouths, stay put tree dogs with good locates and changeovers, if they are doing something they wont pull bascially no matter what, if they dont have something going on they will pack, competative type dogs. not mean or agressive, but will stay treed.

hunted with enough Bullet dogs to know that they tree layed up coons more often than most lines of dogs.


SKUNK CREEK DOGS
Skunk creek dogs are the best track dogs I've seen go,not just stick yur nose down and work there the kind that run with there heads up LOOKING for a coon not just run around till the find one,of all the blue dogs I've hunted with skunk creek dogs have the best head on there shoulders when it comes to finding a coon and getting him to a tree!

JET
Im a jet guy and love them. Only thing I believe would have put them over the top would be nose power. Not saying there's not crosses out there that don't have colder noses but the older jet breeding where pretty medium nose hounds. I'm making a cross now with my jet male and my levi female that should put alot more nose in them. Easy handling fast starting. jmo

CLEAR RIVER JIM X CLEAR RIVER SLAMMER
They seem to put brains, mouths, pups that hunt naturally, start real easy, like to wind, and they look up because of the winding. Accuracy vs amount of trees, color domination, and how soon their pups mature is the difference in what the two brothers throw in their pups. The bad is they will throw some dogs that do some chewing on the tree ( a complete fault to some and not an issue to others), they will run some junk but smart enough to be broke easily, and CR Jimmy's pups want to be real accurate(again preference).

WILLSCREEK
my hounds are generally very intelligent,easy to start and natural treedogs with little or no chewing and no jacking(a peeve of mine),i have worked to keep a 65lb tight built male with a nice blocky hound head, with most being saddle backed---they have much better mouths than the ones i started with and are virtually trash free when handled correctly,they also hunt the way you turn em as this is something i really must have along with being accurate from the time they start treeing......they have proven themselves in competition for 6 generations now under my guidance.........my hounds please me and i dont need to raise 50 pups to get a nice one anymore.

i am always looking to add a hard hunting, lock down on the locate,stay put treedog to the mix but its the individual strengths and weakness as i see it that dictate the individuals that are mated................most of mine will get the track moving before they get struck--like it to be a little quicker but hate a loose mouth and will not hunt a silent one.

SHELTON MORRIS' OLD BOOMER
One thing I would like to bring up is the All Blue, (no tan trim) dog. I am hunting some now that go back to Shelton Morris' old Boomer stock. As a general rule, they run with their head up, pretty darn quick and know how to tree and you don't have to cup your hand to your ear to hear them. Back to the All Blue thing. It seems that no matter how good a dog is, coloration sometimes henders them. Why is that? English folks don't mind and I've seen some dang sorry walkers as well. Good is good no matter the size, color ect... I've had good luck with these dogs and I think I will keep them for a while. JMO, which won't get you much these days.

RAMBO II
I've hunted with enough Rambo II dogs to know that Rambo II put loud mouths,independence,and good conformation in his pups.

DANCER, SON, HILLBILLY, JET 8, GAUGE, GROVER, DOUBLE BARREL DURANGO, PIE, BRUMMY
The ones that I've hunted with on this list don't care what another dog is doing, they actually prefer to be split, are willing to go hunting harder and FASTER than the competition and are wanting to get treed not waller around on a track all night and will stay treed until you get there.

SUGAR
The Sugar female I believe passed on a trait of being competive with other dogs. I have hunted with a few going back to her which were better in a cast than alone. They just will try twice as hard to beat the other dogs. In the last few world hunts several go back to her Saline Sadie, Layup Lucy, Bocephus, Flo, and I think last years male of Mr. Duncan. Not to mention all the other good dogs going back to her.

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Tom Jones
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Registered: Apr 2006
Location: DEEP FORK VALLEY, OKLAHOMA
Posts: 1815

John

is the problem females? out of humpteen pages their was less then 5 females mentioned!!! how many times have you or anyone else seen lucy 4 or lucy 6.


btw: I know that most of the humpteen pages where just crap and everyone knows I was guilty of throwing my poop right along side the next guys. lol

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Tom Jones
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Posts: 1815

Re: Re: stump and 408

quote:
Originally posted by 408northville
Where talking about hounds and how to add traits that are missing, not horses, not short horn cows, not long horn cows or any other type of herbivore, which have absolutely nothing to do with hounds who are carnivores.


Sir, I am sorry. I dont have the brain capacity to understand what you think you know (kind of a joke haha) as you are way to intelligent about the ic, dc, chromosomes, predisones, loratab, nucleus fetus etc etc. i have not an idea what your even talking about most tha time apparently, you could possibly be the best breeder the world has never heard of but what would I know bout that anyways? good luck to ya and heres to hoping you keep on turnin out them top hounds.

seriously, good luck

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ov_blues
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Registered: Feb 2007
Location: Pomeroy, Ohio
Posts: 2843

Re: John

quote:
Originally posted by Tom Jones
is the problem females? out of humpteen pages their was less then 5 females mentioned!!! how many times have you or anyone else seen lucy 4 or lucy 6.





I'm getting off the trait subject my self, but you bring up a good point.

I have seen female Kate I to V, then lost Kate V before we could get Kate VI.

I've also seen this happen

----------X
-----Big name stud #2
----------X
Female
----------Big name stud #1
-----Produce super reproducing female
----------Super Reproducing female

Then Female was line breed on Big name stud #2, not recognizing that original Super Reproducing female is where the stronger genetics were coming from.

I personally try my best to look at the female side of the pedigrees as much as I can.

I made a cross last year and here's some numbers off the PAD. The 14 females in the 4 generation pedigree produced a total of 442 pups. There were 48 Nt Ch's and 36 Gr Nt dogs produced out of the 442 pups for a 19% average. The 14 male dogs in the pedigree produced 4106 pups. There were 226 Nt Ch's and 128 Gr Nt dogs produced out of the 4106 for a 8.62% average.

Now if those females produced at the same 19% average when they were bred to these studs that produced the 4106 pups, those females helped pull those studs averages up to the 8.62% overall average. I believe in reproducing females and breeding dogs from above average crosses to make improvements.

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Old Post 09-21-2013 12:31 AM
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Tom Jones
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Posts: 1815

Arrow john

That's good info and every hound I have that was a gooder one lol was from a strong dam

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Old Post 09-21-2013 12:59 AM
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southernthunder
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Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4886

Re: Re: John

quote:
Originally posted by ov_blues
[B]I'm getting off the trait subject my self, but you bring up a good point.

I have seen female Kate I to V, then lost Kate V before we could get Kate VI.

I've also seen this happen

----------X
-----Big name stud #2
----------X
Female
----------Big name stud #1
-----Produce super reproducing female
----------Super Reproducing female

Then Female was line breed on Big name stud #2, not recognizing that original Super Reproducing female is where the stronger genetics were coming from.

I personally try my best to look at the female side of the pedigrees as much as I can.

I made a cross last year and here's some numbers off the PAD. The 14 females in the 4 generation pedigree produced a total of 442 pups. There were 48 Nt Ch's and 36 Gr Nt dogs produced out of the 442 pups for a 19% average. The 14 male dogs in the pedigree produced 4106 pups. There were 226 Nt Ch's and 128 Gr Nt dogs produced out of the 4106 for a 8.62% average.

Now if those females produced at the same 19% average when they were bred to these studs that produced the 4106 pups, those females helped pull those studs averages up to the 8.62% overall average. I believe in reproducing females and breeding dogs from above average crosses to make improvements. [/eB]


I agree with you! high percentage crosses

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krocket
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BOOMER IS PRODUSING WINNERS AN JUST PLAIN GOOD DOGS

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willscreek1
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nice thread john

good breeding practices will show consistancy in the physical attributes ie; size,conformation,voice and color---these traits go hand in hand with the others that need an educated eye to pick the treasure from the trash..........this is why in my opinion there has never been a top breeder who wasnt a top trainer with a clear understanding of the stock he is working with.


those who think these things arent important will hit a wall when they do get a good one and find out that he throws blue eyes,bad bites,bowlegs and no nuts...............and the vicious circle continues.

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krocket
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Re: nice thread john

quote:
Originally posted by willscreek1
good breeding practices will show consistancy in the physical attributes ie; size,conformation,voice and color---these traits go hand in hand with the others that need an educated eye to pick the treasure from the trash..........this is why in my opinion there has never been a top breeder who wasnt a top trainer with a clear understanding of the stock he is working with.


those who think these things arent important will hit a wall when they do get a good one and find out that he throws blue eyes,bad bites,bowlegs and no nuts...............and the vicious circle continues.

I'M JUST A COON HUNTER SO COULD U EXSPLAIN TO ME HOW ANY OF THE ABOVE TRAITS KEEP A DOG FROM TREEN COON CONSISTANTLY SOME OF THE BEST DOGS I'VE EVER SEEN HAD ONE OR MORE OF THESE TRAITS I'M MORE INTERESTED IN TRACK SPEED ,BEING ACCURED ,INDAPENDENT AN A GOOD TREEDOG BUT WITH THAT SAID I'M JUST A HUNTER NOT A BREEDER

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willscreek1
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they dont keep a dog from treeing coon consistantly---but then again many a collie can do that.

the point is if you dont have consistancy in the way they look and sound,why would you have faith there will be consistancy in the way they perform?---------- faults are never a problem unless your the unlucky one that ends up with them.....

they need to LOOK like a duck,SOUND like a duck and ACT like a duck if they are to be considered a duck.


i dont know about anybody else but my preference would be to own a BLUETICK that would lead a healthy long life that we could share together and still tree coon consistantly......then hopefully get a pup from them that performed the same way.

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Ron Moore
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quote:
Originally posted by willscreek1
they dont keep a dog from treeing coon consistantly---but then again many a collie can do that.

the point is if you dont have consistancy in the way they look and sound,why would you have faith there will be consistancy in the way they perform?---------- faults are never a problem unless your the unlucky one that ends up with them.....

they need to LOOK like a duck,SOUND like a duck and ACT like a duck if they are to be considered a duck.


i dont know about anybody else but my preference would be to own a BLUETICK that would lead a healthy long life that we could share together and still tree coon consistantly......then hopefully get a pup from them that performed the same way.



Very well said Waren! We are all supposed to be trying to improve the Bluetick breed not just hunt the next best thing that pops up. I agree, it's a little deeper than that.

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willscreek1
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game preference

a very important part of breeding hunting dogs is game preference........... this can be directly controlled by good breeding practice.......you do not have to be content with hounds that tree everything that climbs---squirrels,cats,bear,possums,coon and porkies are all different and can be bred toward or away from.

Last edited by willscreek1 on 09-24-2013 at 02:21 AM

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408northville
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Posts: 144

Re: game preference

This takes time, ten to twenty years. I have seen it first hand and often thought about it. My thoughts are, the breeder keeps more of what he likes to hunt until it starts to happen naturally.
I can tell you are a very good breeder. JTG



quote:
Originally posted by willscreek1
a very important part of breeding hunting dogs is game preference........... this can be directly controlled by good breeding practice.......you do not have to be content with hounds that tree everything that climbs---squirrels,cats,bear,possums,coon and porkies are all different and can be bred toward or away from.

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ov_blues
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Posts: 2843

willscreek1

Where do you live? If at all possible, I'd like to make a trip up this fall and go hunting with you.

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willscreek1
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Posts: 185

i live 20 miles north of cambridge---look forward to it.


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Old Post 09-28-2013 03:23 AM
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ov_blues
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2007
Location: Pomeroy, Ohio
Posts: 2843

quote:
Originally posted by willscreek1
i live 20 miles north of cambridge---look forward to it.



Looks like a 2 hour drive for me. I'll definitely be up. I like the hunting up there a lot better and really enjoy the trips "Up North" as Dad used to call them.

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Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

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Old Post 09-28-2013 02:27 PM
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ov_blues
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2007
Location: Pomeroy, Ohio
Posts: 2843

Anyone have any comments on any of the Uchtman Dogs?

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Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

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Old Post 10-08-2013 06:08 PM
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midnite2010
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2010
Location:
Posts: 612

hunted with a nice utchman bred dog owned by lance keiser named blaze. big mouth independent and a coon treeer.

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Old Post 10-08-2013 07:29 PM
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zshepherd
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2011
Location: central Mo.
Posts: 51

I have read this whole post and have no idea what I would breed to to get the traits I need

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Old Post 10-12-2013 02:02 AM
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southernthunder
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4886

quote:
Originally posted by zshepherd
I have read this whole post and have no idea what I would breed to to get the traits I need


what traits are you looking for?

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Southern Thunder Bluetick Kennels


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Old Post 10-12-2013 02:40 AM
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