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I have read books. Studied Pedigrees. Flipped Coins and picked 4 Leaf Clovers. Here are some of the mysteries of breeding dogs.

1. The Super Stud! Not the one you think you have. Not the one your buddies try to make you believe they have. The one that speaks for himself through his offspring. The one you can breed and hunt. The one that you have to turn off the phone and take a lot of vacations to have any peace and quiet. They are few and far between. I don't think their presence can be explained other than they are a freak of nature that somehow gets a chance and they make the best of it.

2. I think the FEMALE plays a bigger role in breeding. I know the careful author that don't want to make anyone mad or get anyone to think they are crazy throws in the environment thing and that the pups are raised with the female and that is why. I am not sure if it is not just a genetic thing and I sure would sound crazy trying to explain it. But experience in watching pups grow up make me want to believe it.

3. Sticking with the female thing. I think at least 50% of the females getting bred. SHOULD NOT BE BRED. Probably could go as high as 75%.

4. If you have a male or female and they have a hole or you don't like something they do. I can tell you if you breed them you had better get over it, as some of the pups will be the same way and probably the one or ones you decide to keep. If it is a big hole---DONT BREED THEM.

5. Then when you think you are starting to figure it out you will be exposed to an excellent dog out of junk that should of never been bred. You scratch your head wondering. Problem is all too often that dog should not be bred to but is.

6. Last but not least. The wind is always changing directions. What line you might think is a good breeding choice in lets say in this 10 year span. Might not be the right choice in the next 10 year span. It could also flop around and a line you never thought you would breed to, might start to offer you something you need in your program.

Confused--So are most breeders!!

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Another thought for the computer geek. I know there are pedigree data basis. The show an inbreeding coefficient of all the known dogs in the pedigrees. What we need the computer geek to do is take many 7 generation pedigrees from several different breeds and give each dog a code. Then pattern all the dogs bred and see if there is a pattern to line breeding, in breeding or outcrossing that shows up in many of the good dogs.

For example--Say you find in a pattern that a father-daughter cross always produced at least two Grand Nights from their litter or uncle niece cross produces a certain number of night champions per litter. Don't pattern specific dogs like lipper or sacket, jr by name. Pattern them on the relationships of the breeding pairs behind them.
I think the relationships of the breeding pairs play an important role. Maybe more so than the actual dogs. Kind of like you stack block to build a house. There are some ways doing it that are stronger than others.
Sometimes no relationship may be better than the wrong one.

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Bruce , at this time i have two young walker pups. One is 4 months old out of a young dog in our part of the country called Late Night Trax out of Redneck Mafia that is winning everything around here and a female Twisted Sister, that has produced some good dogs. Trax is GNT and $KC CH and Sister is GNT. Also have a 3 month old pup out of an accidental in the woods breeding of my Preacher dog (out of Mafia) and my buddy's dog. Now these dogs haven't been to town and Preacher is only 21 months old but they both tree coon in style. It will be interesting to see which pup makes the better dog. Funny if I had to choose right now I would take the second pup.To me it's really hard to know which dogs to breed to produce coon dogs.

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I know it is hard to believe you get a dog like bone that has a very good reproduction record for reproducing good coon treeing dogs. Nobody talks about this other kind of dog that dominatly single handedly will destroy a good breeding program like getting a virus in your computer and that Carries a dominate gene of the stupidest , worthless , non hunting , good for nothin dogs on the earth often times that dog is a super dog himself but just can't reproduce even on a proven family of reproducers I found out this myself.

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Bruce great post for me the interesting thing with bone is he seemed to work on just about anything or is it like the old days when the bad get lost. I firm believe in line breeding best to best line bred with serious old time culling no such thing as a brood bitches all proven bitches. Ii'm in the genetics field with cattle as a job, dairy cattle there are traits that are more heritable then the next which means 1 is easier to breed in then the next and some are very low it would be interesting if there is the same in dogs

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I have a question for you guy's to think about
Were those old Great breeders we read about Lying? lol
How did they do it? Or did they? Really would love to hear everyone's opinion. Is it the dogs or the breeders? Or both
Hmmm?

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Those great breeders usually had 5 genrations or more of their dogs and usually put alot of pups on the ground but they also knew when an above average one popped up out of their dogs they would go buy it and advertise it like they all was that good most cases not so most like me I have had several generations of my dogs if I had a puppy and it turned out it probly would be close to 3 yrs old before you seen me at a hunt why ? Because I like to wait and see what qualities it's going to have as well as faults I have seen tons of 15 month old wonder dogs out of top advertised studs that at 2 1/2 yr old weren't worth a crap for nothin.

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What impressed me about Bone and in my opinion made him a freak that doesnt come along everyday is this.
1. This dog would be hauled to a major hunt. Bred during the week and knock on the winners door by the end of the week. Many good dogs cant even be hauled.
2. There are countless men that i call the common man. He hunts and has a family. He splits his time between them. He isnt training on the dog everday or every night. With normal care and hunting. His dog ends up above average. Thats how i think you spell success as a breeder by producing those kind of pups. Bone produced those kind of pups.
3. With many good ones there also come bad ones. Just have to be smart enough to move on and dont compound the problem of having a sorry one with the problem of hunting a sorry one and wasting time. I dont want to hear about all the worthless, no good bone dogs. There has to be plenty. But the law of average is on your side with certain sires. Bone was one of them.
4. Couple years ago i was at a Baby Stakes hunt and the bone pups came in there one after another. Big bold pups that were competing at an age most arent even started yet
5. I think River Bend Flag was a freak like Bone. It wasnt Kent Spencers advertisements that made him popular. It was his offspring and word of mouth. Timothy Ball God Bless him set the standard on Marketing with the Old original Hickory Nut Harry back in the seventies. It worked and he bred plenty and the females brought enough to the breeding to make him a top stud. One top stud i feel the number game made. Breed enough and a few real good ones will be born. Those will get you enough attention to keep the females coming. Sackett jr another top Stud. Zeb Again or Zeb 3 right up there. The one Freak from the wipeout bunch was American Express. Big if but if he didnt die young there is no telling how many records. He could of set. There have been many proven stud dogs then the freak comes along and sets new standards.
Right now there is a movement with the slow talking dogs. There was Buzz then Blaze. They are the dogs that represent my statement about the wind changing. You couldnt run me down and give me a rat attack dog several years ago. Buzz brings that rat genetics back at the right dose and puts it into some good track dogs of todsy. Buzz represented solid treeing with some fast running dog characteristics. Add the fact they have brains and you have a good line to select from.
Fellows all this is just words. Just have to get one and go have some fun. Nobody has it figured out. Just that some recgonizes their diamond in the rough and works hard to polish it.

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Sitting here thinking and the list of above average litters is incrediable. Look at the Power Pack and Easy cross. Plenty of above average ones from that cross.

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Good thoughts, Bruce.

I think you are exactly right about the female having more influence than the male.

Probably the rest too.

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I believe the female contributes more as well...I was reading an article on genetics that the female contributes more genetically than the male...that right there should mean something...many things are created through chemical reactions...some people worry and next thing they reach for the purple pill because acid indigestion kicked in and they need the pill to neutralize that reaction with another chemical to counter react the initial reaction...I said all that to say this...if the female is 5 to six weeks pregnant and she is out trailing a hot coon track...she gets very excited as she is trailing and there will be chemical reactions taking place in her body...she inhales the hot coon scent and the coon scent aroma is being inhaled into her lungs...and the lungs will transport the coon scent molecules into the blood stream and her excitement releases different hormones and these somehow could be affecting these pups before they are born...after all they are connected to her...if she catches the coon on the ground I am thinking this could make a bigger impact on the puppies...

day in and day out...great hunting dog producers tend to be dogs that come from a long line of great hunting dog producers...a dog that is scatter bred will produce scatter dogs on average because he comes from an average heritage...

breeding the right dogs is half of it...the other half is selecting the right pups and having an eye for selecting the best pups is very helpful...and keeping as many as possible is best...testing for natural ability helps in selecting for natural ability...natural ability begets more natural ability...natural ability is where it's at...
you shouldn't have to feed a lot of tracks to a natural to make a decent dog out of him or her...

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Bruce, can you give a list of breeders that consistently crank out good dog? Not the stud owner but someone who has the females and gets it right more times than not? Travis brown comes to mind but that's all I can think of. I don't mean someone who has one really good producing female. Anyone can get lucky but I'm talking about generation after generation of consistently good hounds bred to different lines of dogs.

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Joey those guys never get the credit so their names are hard to remember. I think Mike Carroll kind of fits in there but I am not sure they are all his females. Out west some guys with the high expectations females reproduce their own. Jumping to the Black dogs, I think John D from this board has done well with his females and choose the right studs.
The Marchants in GA have done pretty well with some of their own females breeding them. I am sure many of the better known guys have plenty of females we never hear about.

Lots of the good females get hunted and not bred. Lots of the sorry females, thats all they are used for. This is the wrong board to be talking about winning money. But a solid money winning female is almost to valuable to breed. That is if you put her in the hunts and want to attain monetary levels and goals with her and are doing it.

Many years ago it was about numbers. Produce numbers and you will have enough good ones to earn yourself a name which gets people buying and in turn you breeding more. Think for many, that line of thought is no longer valid but still happens.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by joey
Bruce, can you give a list of breeders that consistently crank out good dog? Not the stud owner but someone who has the females and gets it right more times than not? Travis brown comes to mind but that's all I can think of. I don't mean someone who has one really good producing female. Anyone can get lucky but I'm talking about generation after generation of consistently good hounds bred to different lines of dogs.

---

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This my theory and I'll be the first to admit that I have been wrong more than once. Bone was mentioned on here, was he a product of years of purposeful breeding? Doug got pearl from a local man and bred her to jake, turns out pearl would reproduce no matter what you bred her to. One of those pups duke took and bred to homer. Homer was the product of an accidental breeding. That produced Bone. Planned? Not to take away from anyone but I don't think so. They bred coondog to coondog and got coondogs. I think that a few of us a lucky enough to find a freak reproducer now and then that continues to reproduce down the generations, but I don't think it's as planned as we like to think.

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I agree and that is why I used the term Freak. A freak of nature is something beyond the norm that nature hands us everyday.
I am saying that there could be a pattern to the breeding in some of these freaks. Just like more knowledge has allowed the Weather people to forecast Hurricanes and now locally they have the equipment to see wind circulation and follow storms and give the time and locations and directions of travel of storms that have tornado possibilities.


When I use to do a lot more looking at pedigrees than I do today. I seemed to notice one thing. Behind some of these Studs that got a name for being Popular, Outstanding or whatever you want to call them. There was a Female that ended up being there more than once and was generally inbred or family bred. Raccoon Valley Queen, Taylors Hardwood Dixie, Stylish Queen. I just wish it would be easy to pattern pedigrees on the computer. Not looking for names but looking for breeding patterns of family members and total outcrosses and then see if the dogs from certain patterns ended up household names.

There has to be a secret sauce that removes he egos, the lies, the advertisement from producing so called top hounds. The secret sauce actually allows it to happen and gives the Coon Hunter a dog he is proud of by breeding a specific way that has been identified to work.

I have seen over the years a few dogs that performed very well that in no way shape or form. The cross should have been made. I have seen it in coonhounds and I have seen it in Deer Hounds. What made that cross work.

Also with the competition coonhounds we have to remember how the major amount of genetics behind our dogs, got there. Breeding in the 70's and 80's was different than it is today. Breading in the 90's started to change from the 70's and 80's.

Here is my evolution of breeding. Back in the 70's if you coonhunted your communication with other hunters was about 1% of what it is today for the common man. The Full Cry and American Cooner Magazine probably accounted of over 90% of that communication. We use to wait every year for the World Champion to be crowned or for someone to figure out the big pretty ad that would WOW us. Then people would migrate to these people and breed their dogs. Not all those world champions and pretty ads deserved to even be in a breeding conversation using todays knowledge and standards. Back in the 70's and early 80's a dog would make Grand Night Champion and many would then be retired and become a Stud Dog.
I have a Grand Night with a 3 generation All Grand Pedigree that I can walk out back and put my hands on and rub his ears and have never once tried to talk anyone into breeding to him. Using my standards he is just a dog that can tree a coon. In the 70's or 80's he could have equaled any of them with pretty ads and melted into the hearts and minds of many people looking for a Stud.
Then the 80's came along and many people due to the $kc saw there was value in hunting the good dogs. Many of the Grand Night Champions were still being retired but not because they were being bred, but the facts they couldn't compete and were not as good as they should have been. Many were made at the coffee shop. Again this is our foundation. Pretty ads, dogs not titled properly and not enough communication to expose what is really going on.
In the 80's people started traveling and seeing more dogs and hunting in some of the $kc hunts around the country. We started looking and comparing two or three world champs every year. Yes more ads and more dogs to choose from. The decisions got harder. Actually in coon hunting we don't always try to make the right decisions but the child comes out in us and we try to make the decision that gives use something others do have. More like the selfish child. Then the computer and internet came along. Which now has turned into social media. We see who is winning and how much at the click of a mouse.
I know I jumped fast over the changes of the last twenty years but most of the damage was done early. What I mean by that is the foundation was already poured and was starting to set. It means the path most of us follow is the same with the same old pedigrees. We just look at it differently.

There are more top dogs showing up weekly at some of these major hunts than all the top dogs you gather up in six months back in the 80's. Don't get me wrong or take me wrong--I am not comparing the quality of a top dog of today with a top dog from the 70's. The real coondogs back then does what real coondogs do today. Tree coon.
Just many from yesterday were not that good and there wasn't the communication and hunting them together to prove it. We use to focus on the UKC hunt Thursday night and see how many when hunted alone would not hunt. It was amazing. That was the Stud Dog you neighbor bred to because of the pretty ad.

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Last edited by Bruce m. Conkey on 05-29-2017 at 02:00 PM

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Ok Bruce here is what I think the reason bone stands out because he came along at a time when the way I see it you got where all Walker studs reproduced just about the same kind of dogs ( I am being nice lol ) bone throwes consistantly dogs that keep their mouth shut till they are smelling coon and have coons in their trees. I would like to know if his sire and dam was that way or did it come from somwhere else ?

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Bruce,

I've been breeding stock of different kinds for most of my life. Started off with hogs and beef cattle, graduated to dairy cattle, horses, chickens and stock dogs, bird dogs, beagles, coon dogs and now squirrel dogs. So while I certainly do not think of myself as a geneticist, I've a student of genetics for sure.

The term that your are using "freak" simply isn't all that accurate, because it is possible to produce a "freak"....problem is that most of us don't have the will and/or the resources to do so.

The "freak of nature" that you speak of actually has a name, it is known as prepotency. Prepotency is defined as the ability of one parent to impress its hereditary characters on its progeny because it possesses more homozygous, dominant, or epistatic genes. I agree that the female of a species certainly is important in breeding selection, but prepotency is normally more appearant in males because of the numbers of progeny they reproduce from different matings.

I learned most about prepotency during my chicken raising days. When we took a rooster that had been very selectivly breed over several generations for certain traits...we could "lock in" those traits. By that, I mean that we could take that selectivly bred rooster and breed it to an unrelated, crossed up mongrel hen....and a disproportionate number of the chicks would end up being like their sire.

I took that life experience and tried my best to apply it in dogs. It's tough because the generation of chickens turns over in about 6 moths, while it takes years to prove reproduction in a performance animal like a dog....so reproducing color is easier to evaluate than reproduction of an animal that has to PERFORM...

To save space and time I'm not going to go into a lot of detail here how we can create those "freaks", but if you are interested, I wrote an article several years ago and it is on my web site at http://oakridgekennel.com/prepotenc...l-degeneration/

But let me say this.....where we as coon hound breeders fail is

1. We have not yet identified what traits we are breeding for. We simply don't know what seperates a dog from a really good dog.
2. We are still breeding to "better the breed" by tying to plug holes in one dog with strenghts of the other, rather than breeding only dogs that don't have holes
3. We have not agreed on a standard for what a good dog is, and we are satisfied breeding to a full page glossy ad in a magazine that declares how good the dog is based upon hunt wins.

Overall, it is possible to reproduce a whole set of "freaks"....and it has happened in the coon dog world in the past. Bone is one, Logan's Wild Clover was another one that comes to mind....but we as coon dog breeders always breed the ability to reproduce out of our dogs over about three generations by not being selective enough.

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Tar he is in your neck of the woods more than in mine. You need to do that research and let us know.

You also mentioned something that is another key to success.
His pups keep their mouths shut and tree coons.

I have said on here many times that in training any dog you should have a dog from genetics trees real live coon. I have also said you should always train to eliminate the minus your dog has. Carry a scorecard and if your dog does something that puts minus on the card you have to eliminate it to be successful in the hunts.
That is running trash and collecting minus. Barkin when it shouldn't and collecting minus. Treeing slick trees and collecting minus, quoting tracks and getting minus.
The natural dogs have fewer minus points in them than many of the hounds bred today. So you hope to get the natural and that you don't have to train the minus points out of. Just take it hunting and teach it to handle. Or you have one that at every crossroad in their training your trying to eliminate minus points they tend to collect.

Tar there is no answer only thoughts. I wake up everyday hoping my mind is full of thoughts about life, love and trying to make it better for my Family. When I tell them I wish I thought about them more than I thought about these dogs they tell me not to change. They said I spent my life providing for them. Now spend the rest of it trying to figure our the dogs. I never will but I will learn everyday. If the Good Lord keeps me going I will even see changes in 10 years or so that will change the thoughts I have today.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Oak Ridge
Bruce,

I've been breeding stock of different kinds for most of my life. Started off with hogs and beef cattle, graduated to dairy cattle, horses, chickens and stock dogs, bird dogs, beagles, coon dogs and now squirrel dogs. So while I certainly do not think of myself as a geneticist, I've a student of genetics for sure.

The term that your are using "freak" simply isn't all that accurate, because it is possible to produce a "freak"....problem is that most of us don't have the will and/or the resources to do so.

The "freak of nature" that you speak of actually has a name, it is known as prepotency. Prepotency is defined as the ability of one parent to impress its hereditary characters on its progeny because it possesses more homozygous, dominant, or epistatic genes. I agree that the female of a species certainly is important in breeding selection, but prepotency is normally more appearant in males because of the numbers of progeny they reproduce from different matings.

I learned most about prepotency during my chicken raising days. When we took a rooster that had been very selectivly breed over several generations for certain traits...we could "lock in" those traits. By that, I mean that we could take that selectivly bred rooster and breed it to an unrelated, crossed up mongrel hen....and a disproportionate number of the chicks would end up being like their sire.

I took that life experience and tried my best to apply it in dogs. It's tough because the generation of chickens turns over in about 6 moths, while it takes years to prove reproduction in a performance animal like a dog....so reproducing color is easier to evaluate than reproduction of an animal that has to PERFORM...

To save space and time I'm not going to go into a lot of detail here how we can create those "freaks", but if you are interested, I wrote an article several years ago and it is on my web site at http://oakridgekennel.com/prepotenc...l-degeneration/

But let me say this.....where we as coon hound breeders fail is

1. We have not yet identified what traits we are breeding for. We simply don't know what seperates a dog from a really good dog.
2. We are still breeding to "better the breed" by tying to plug holes in one dog with strenghts of the other, rather than breeding only dogs that don't have holes
3. We have not agreed on a standard for what a good dog is, and we are satisfied breeding to a full page glossy ad in a magazine that declares how good the dog is based upon hunt wins.

Overall, it is possible to reproduce a whole set of "freaks"....and it has happened in the coon dog world in the past. Bone is one, Logan's Wild Clover was another one that comes to mind....but we as coon dog breeders always breed the ability to reproduce out of our dogs over about three generations by not being selective enough.

---

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Joe, I agree with exactly what you say. The term Prepotent Stud was used so much in the past in stud dog ads that I don't like to use it and I also feel that is not a term that many people understand. I think one key in finding that dog is first look at littermates. I had a conversations with a man from this board the other day and we were trying to figure out BONES littermates and their outcome. I understand two sisters and that is as far as I got and that may not even be correct.

Joe genetics can been seen to work also in farm stock just like you mentioned. You also mentioned the reasons which I agree with but term differently.
What makes it difficult if not impossible is the difference in Tangible and Intangible.
With farm stock you see color, weight, count eggs produced, measure weight gain in cattle. You then breed to improve on the area you are in. You use a scale and a measuring tape and your eyes to see color to tell you if it is working. All tangible things that you can see, taste and feel. You and your neighbor see the scale the same and you can get on the same page to see if the scale is heading in the direction you want. With coonhounds you and your neighbor are breeding for top dogs but all the intangibles in everyones mind, keeps us breeding in all directions.

I think we have identified the traits. Coon in a tree. But like you said everyone has a different opinion on what separates or makes up a good dog. Like voice. Everyone say listen to that voice. Most of them are sorry. When you breed a coonhound there are so many intangibles in place we can't measure the results with a ruler or scale to let us know we failed.

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Last edited by Bruce m. Conkey on 05-29-2017 at 02:28 PM

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I have a dog out of Bone and one out of Insane Cain. Both of these dogs reproduced. won hunts and were a pleasure to hunt. The best part of this is the owners Doug and James are as good as it gets. SO I guess you can have it all. Thank a solider today. If you are a VET thank you.

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Bruce let's put tar rattler back in the equation I don't get the bloodlines anymore but at a 1000 pups I think he was at 12% with the latest titled dogs out of him it should be higher now. When I crossed Macie on bone it was a super cross I was going to do it again and Macie got killed. So I bought granny (macies littermate ) so bones gone now so I am going to go to a son of his if granny don't come in heat I have bought a daughter of hers. Rattler and bones pups are a lot alike easy to train, honest , accurate coon treeing dogs. When I look at a stud the higher his percentages are with less pup numbers is what impresses me most.

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Mike you said the following.
I liked that article. But like you said, culling all the blue colored balls to get more red ones in your kennel could years and a lot of dogs.

In the beef, chicken and hog industry we eat the culls so that is not a bad thing. That industry keeps the ones that meet breeding standards and keep improving them and that is something that can be accomplished with farm animals. Never with coonhounds at the same level of achievement. The theory is there. But who is going to determine that is the voice you breed for or that dog has the track speed we need to breed for or that dog has brains we need to breed for.

Mike also just like you you said. Even if one person set his own standards and kept tight standards there are not enough YEARS for him to accomplish what he is looking for and then prove it to anyone else. Soon as one of his dogs get to anyone else and is bred. The whole thing is washed down the drain.

There are crosses that work and there are a bunch that don't.

Funny thing and I will leave you with this. Most of our conversations have mentioned Walker Hounds. I really think that in trying to breed the better hound, using proven genetic theory our fellow hunters with other breeds. Do a better job. Just think they get kennel blind and don't dip into their buddies genetics when it could help them out if they brought in the new blood and patterned their crosses like they always have. It is like the people really serious and doing a good job don't want to share the credit for producing a good hound. Then then end up kennel blind and not doing a good job. When all along they were on the edge of getting it right and they themselves are the only ones that prevented it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
Mike you said the following.
I liked that article. But like you said, culling all the blue colored balls to get more red ones in your kennel could years and a lot of dogs.

In the beef, chicken and hog industry we eat the culls so that is not a bad thing. That industry keeps the ones that meet breeding standards and keep improving them and that is something that can be accomplished with farm animals. Never with coonhounds at the same level of achievement. The theory is there. But who is going to determine that is the voice you breed for or that dog has the track speed we need to breed for or that dog has brains we need to breed for.

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