Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Burlington, CT
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Are there any people on this thread, that are purely maintaining the old bloodlines, without any recent out-crosses? I'm talking about a pedigree where the average 20 year old, wouldn't recognize any of the names! No Sackett Jr, nothing with "Attack" in the name, no Mojo, no version of "X", no Trackman, not even Clover. A kennel full of line bred dogs, with a bunch of "no-names" in the pedigree until you find a Lipper, Harry, or even Chief!

I'm assuming this will likely be a "pleasure hunter" or maybe a competition hunter with a whole lot of discipline! Someone who chose to never out cross to the latest fad.

I'm asking this question to test a few theories...

1. I'm assuming that these types are rarely on this type a forum, because they're more "old school", and there's nothing wrong with that! Also, the types on this kind of forum are usually looking for new technology, new ideas, etc. and the type of person I have in mind relies more on the time-tested ideas and theories.

2. If this line exists, they probably make way less trees than some of us are accustomed to, but with more coon in them. And their hounds are more likely to be ball mouth tree dogs, or a combination tree dog, as opposed to rattling off 120 barks a minute, at potentially a slick tree!

3. And if this line exists, these dogs are probably less high strung, and hunt much closer, but again more likely to have a coon 50 feet from the truck, than a slick a 1/2 mile away.

4. If the last two theories, lead you to beleive that I think the old dogs were much better coon dogs than the current dogs, well... in some regards yes, but those old dogs had many weaknesses too. However, there are a lot of generations since those old dogs, and I assume these hunters have bred out some of those old weaknesses, but without breeding in the weaknesses of some of the more recent "flavors of the week".

Does such a person and program exist? Or is theory one correct, and they might, but there not on here to respond???

David Schmidt

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ive been hunting dogs out of my own stock since 1980. with a line cross of just a few outside females. my breeding started with a son of hickory nut harry bred to a daughter of lipper and my babe dog which was a grandaughter of daniels willie bred to a direct son of yadkin river jeff. my harry males mother was daniels sweething which was a half sister to willie, both being off hall of fame DANIELS BIG DOT. this blood just keeps reproducing for me. they are a pleasure to hunt during the week, and dont do to shabby on the weekends.

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Last edited by Dan Dogs on 12-23-2012 at 09:53 PM

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Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Burlington, CT
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Dan - how about those outcrosses, pretty similar dogs, or some newer blood? You aren't too far away from me... we may need to tag-up some time.


I did have a family of dogs in mind, when I wrote this post... growing up, there was a local family that raised walkers, most of which were Finley River lines, but some others mixed in. They usually had about a dozen dogs around the farm, half of which were probably culls, running free, but the other half was decent stock kept in kennels. Amongst them, there was usually enough decent dogs to make some crosses and do some line-breeding.

I bought an old female from them, several years back, and there wasn't one dog in her 3 generation that most would even recognize, and very few titles, at all. But she was a coon dog! She would tree coon by herself or in company. She was independent and would go deep enough around others, but would "check-in" if hunted by herself, and not striking a coon nearby. Was she a whirl-wind... no, but then again, she was also 10 years old!

These guys kept all there dogs UKC registered, but couldn't tell you who won the World hunt any given year, or care either. They couldn't tell you what it took to win a hunt, but could tell you what made a coon dog! And I was curious if there were any others, like them, out there. Because these are the guys, most statistics don't account for, but are the heart and soul of our heritage. And... some of their dogs, that most wouldn't think twice about (lack of titles, big stud names, etc.) are probably the out-crosses many of us need. Because it's there that one might find a refined gene pool, without much of today's chaff.

Anyone else out there???

Dave

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All my dogs are line bred on od Mac....Hey I am the one who bought old cooter lol

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Last edited by mike shannon on 12-23-2012 at 11:57 PM

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That's right Mike... you ought to recognize the description of that old female!

How's everything down in Missouri?

Dave

Last edited by deschmidt27 on 12-24-2012 at 12:10 AM

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i wouldn't realy call them out crosses. one female was heavy harry bred thru boone. the other was stylish coma x yadkin river tom tom. purty much the same blood but thru different veins.

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I have a line of dogs that goes back to Finley River Chief, Finley River Spike, Lone Pine Eagle,Finley River Buck, Hillbilly Mac and a hand full of farm raised sure enough "COON DOGS" that my Grand Pap raised in hills of Western P.A. his name was Sherman Kiger. I am the third generation to hunt this line and starting to train a fourth generation of Hound hunters "my kids". Now I made one out cross about 4 yrs ago with some of high power type dog your talking about, Sackett, Sackett Jr, Nocturnal Nailor thinking that those were the blood lines I wanted, however I fully understand to a T your theories #2,3,4 Iam going through it in the woods every week, now do not think that I was bashing the dogs that I mentioned above simply saying that they are not my type of hound. The dogs that I kept are doing ok and on occasion tree with coon in the tree, saying about 60-70 percent, I hate their mouth! !!! One dog squeaks, one sounds like farm Shepherd and one chops all the ti me. I have bought a heavy, heavy Finley River bred pup and hope he turns out like I think he should, to put back the traits in my dogs that suit me and that Iam used to. A dog that works a track that comes to him/her, tracks with a bawl, a dying locate and a mark tree bark, rolls over to a nice steady chop and stays put till I get there. Again never my intention to bash or offend anyone or their preferred line of dogs, just saying what suits me. Thanks for a great topic and subject to ponder.

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D27- I am hunting my fifth generation of self bred stock. There are some big names back in there [Sackett jr, Rat, and others] but mostly stuff of my own. I do not think of it as an "old blood" issue. I think of it as not being "flavor of the month". Flavor of the month sells puppies, and generally makes tree dogs, but I have not found many of the flavor of the month type of dogs fit my training and hunting routine. They seem to work well for others, but I have tried several of the big name stuff in hopes of bringing it into my line, and they have not worked out.
I do comp hunt my line, and usually only breed dogs that are or will be titled to GRNite.
I have culled based on ease of care issues- no high strung, mean, or crate crappers or shoe chewers last long.
I have found locally bred dogs to be more likely to be accurate than flavor of the month stuff.
One of my regular hide hunting buddies has as tough of a pack of hounds as any that I have drawn at any of the hunts that I have been to in the last few years. He also has a few "flavor of the month dogs" mixed back in there, but mostly local stuff, much of it untitled.

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Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Burlington, CT
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Dan - sounds like your one of the few, I'm talking about!

Mr. Kiger - sounds like you hear what I'm saying. I too am not bashing any of those studs/lines I mentioned, it's just a different perspective on a different goal.

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Last edited by deschmidt27 on 12-24-2012 at 01:24 AM

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truly - we're probably talking about the same thing. The issue I've struggled with is the root cause of the problem. The negative traits of today, have in short order, already been touched on by myself and others on this thread: tree crazy, go deep for now good reason passing coon along the way, mouths like house dogs, and some of what I would call personality issues.

Now... in some instances, some of these traits have helped dogs win competition hunts, if bundled with the right mix of other traits. And in the recent past, say the past decade or so, the focus seems to be on titles, and in comes the flavors of the week. The problem is that when you breed flavors of the week to others with the same traits, those traits start to be magnified, and here we are... the average dog out there, goes to deep unnecessarily, and makes to many trees, squeeking all the way!

So... in my mind, how do you get around all those bad traits, in the gene pool? Perhaps, start more out-crossing to the most pure "old blood" you can find. In other words, blood with genes before they were polluted with the 31 Flavors.

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Location: texas
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Ive been hunting a line of house bred hounds since I was old enough to hunt. There are others around me (Paul Camp, Coy Davenport) that also hunt house bred hounds so we get the chance to line breed some good hounds. I am hunting a one year old female that is all house she has lipper 9 times in a 7 generation houses Clint17 times in 7 and there are other great house bred hounds in there as well. However there is no sackett, rat, yadkin, clover, nailor,or any other modern bred hound on her pedigree. There are a lot more people breeding and hunting these old lines of hounds but many don't get on here much, and many just post on the house bred forum. These hounds still tree line coons and win hunts. I will say I find most of the coons when my hounds tree. My male has shown me 17 coons in 20 trees with 1 den and 2 slicks in the last 6 trips to the woods. I'm only 25 years old and I'm the youngest breeder of old time house bred dogs I know off, but i love this great line.
Good luck and good hunting to all of you, and have a merry Christmas.

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You might have liked my old dog Pete ,,,been dead 7 years on Christmas eve ,,,He was out of Hillbilly Mac x on a line of dogs from WVa and Ohio ,other than Mac ,i hunted alot of those dogs over 45 years . Big names on the females side were FR Chief ,FR Buck, Johnson's Banjo,Rankes Blue Ridge Rock ,Rankes Millie, Motley Mo Major,, There was no up close newer stud dogs in my old dog.

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Last edited by chuck west on 12-24-2012 at 02:21 AM

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I dont think you will find anyone with dogs in their ped. that no one will recognize. I'm currently hunting the 7th generation of a line of females I have had. I out cross and then cross them back in but I just breed to dogs that I know reproduce what I'm looking for. I dont sell pups or dogs so I dont care what the ped looks like.

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I am into the 9th generation of my English. My line was based on traits I admired. I only outcross if a strain has some traits that will at least help me maintain the traits or occasionally, have a trait that I would like to add to my strain. All it takes is 1 bad outcross and you can lose your strain to some undesirable traits. I have sure never bred for titles although there are many titles in my dog's pedigree. Unfortunately, I may not raise another litter of hound pups, I can't do hound pups justice any more.

I might add that at one time, I had 2 seperate strains of English with different traits. I replaced 1 strain with Mt Curs.

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Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Burlington, CT
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Joey - you have the basic mentality of what I'm talking about, but those out-crosses still bring recessive traits you may not be aware of. The "old blood" I'm talking about, has that too, but it's a much smaller gene pool.

And I didn't say, no one, I said the average 20 year old. They may have heard of Lipper or Finley River Chief, but they don't know them as intimately as many of us do. For example, these same youth have probably heard of Michael Jordan, but they can't picture him, like I can.

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Lol dave you cant be calling me an. Old cooter around Christmas. ...alls good here in Mo.

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Dave S.: If you want to talk old Finley River blood, Robert Starke's from N.E. Missouri is the man. I talked to him on the phone last week & I learned more about that line in 10 minutes then I though I knew in my first 40 years. Charlie Radtke

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Your right about the recessive genes, but that’s my job to take care of that. The ones that show them go the way of the dodo bird. I think you will find the ones who never out cross see their lines go to nothing.

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William "Cody" Hanson out of Wisconsin was a breeder like this. I bought a very nice female from him years ago . She was Finely River and Red Eagle bred but up close no names most would recognize. I lost touch with him and don't know if he even raises dogs anymore. He was very knowledgeable about the blood and traits of the dogs in this line and the female he sold me came along just like he described how the hounds in this line did. Would definitely like another like her.

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I want a " Old Stock" Black N' Tan. Gettin hard to find. If someone had one from Arkansas I would make the drive down for sure.

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I think alot of us are in agreement on this subject and good to see everybodys thoughts, in my opinion back in the days of these "old blood " dogs people hunted hounds for much different reasons than the most do today, sale hides for rent money, or extra Christmas money, and in those days money was hard to come by, think of the wages you made in the 70's and 80's compared to now. So people weren't buying a favorite flavor of the month 2, 6, 8 times a year, times were hard, they huntedihard, only breed to dogs that were sure to do the job, and CULLED hard to. In those days there was no such thing as an All Grand Pedigree, there were damb few NITECH dogs and even fewer GRNITECH compared to today. Look at the Standing
Studs in the Blood lines, in all those dogs you would be
Hard pressed to find say 8-10 different dogs among them. My Grand Pap always told me "Be as honest and as hard on your own dogs as you would your nabors dogs and CULL the ones that don't measure up, ask to breed to the guys dog that beets your @$$ in the timber, not the one that has a title that says he can. Thanks for listing

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don't think you will find any dogs out there that has that old blood on top and bottom. you will find on one side only.
this is what we are trying . to get some of that old blood back.
we started off with 5 pups off of KENTUCKY RIVER ROWDY. Semen pups. sinse then we got 3 straws off of OAK RUN RADAR. NOW we have two females off of Hardwood patch. witch are grand pups off of HARDWOOD BOZO. WE are still looking. oh we just bought a bellar female thats bellar both sides. with pac man up close.

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Boy, is the original poster wrong on so many levels. Up until recent I hunted some dogs that a friend of mine has that his daddy hunted for 40 years and stayed true to it. These dogs were all Finley river hounds. Fr Dan, spot, etc. I hunted them too 30 years ago but got away from them because of my poor breeding tactics. Around 8 years ago I got a three year old male from him and new this dog was as good or better than most. In three hunts he made Nite Champion. Those three hunts were the same hunt just in two cosecutive years. The Texas State Hunt! Won 1st on Friday, 3rd on saturday and the next year another 3rd on Saturday. The dog died not long after.

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Registered: Jun 2008
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Cody - sorry, but you lost me! You wrote, "original poster wrong on so many levels" then you followed with you hunting some old blood, but got out of it because of your "poor breeding tactics". Then if I'm reading it right, you said you went back to it, and won at three consecutive TX state hunts! Exactly what was I wrong about???

Doug - wow... I haven't heard of Rowdy in quite some time, but I used to train a lot of good pups out of him, and even drew him at Autumn Oaks, in a GrNtCh cast. A fairly solid dog from what I remember. And as a Clover fan myself, many forget that Rowdy was the first one throwing those black and white dogs!

artkiger - many of us could do well, by taking your Grand Pap's advice!

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I got a PM this morning with someone asking for some breeding advice. And perhaps I should be no where near the top of the list, to answer those types of questions, but I will share my reasoning and rationale.

First of all, I am a novice to breeding and genetics, so there are many others on here that are better for asking breeding advice. BUT, the recognition that these decisions are about genetics and traits, puts me a bit above some others that are making breeding decisions.

With that said, the PM made it clear, that perhaps I needed to define "old blood". And my answer was the studs and lines of the early to mid 90s. And why... becasue I see that as a turning point where marketting, had a much bigger effect on our decisions. We certainly weren't as informed about DNA at that time, or prior, but we suddenly started to focus more on titles than traits. I'm not going to say that, folks weren't previously breeding to the most recent NtCh or GrNtCh in the magazine, as I'm sure they were. But, the focus on acheiving an all grand pedigree, for instance, became a new fad. And unfortuantely, I don't think folks were focusing on the line breeding and traits that were in that first all grand litter, they just focused on all those GRNTCH's. And boom... titles became the litmus test for abilities!

And so, perhaps many started breeding for what would produce titles, as opposed to what pleased them during the week. Because, c'mon let's not pretend that there aren't some GrNtCh's and even World Champions, being whooped during the week, out of frustration when it's not about the clock and score, but about what is enjoyable!

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