Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Burlington, CT
Posts: 1758

The rule states that points will be circled... "When dog strikes and trees up a tree or a hole in the ground where there could be a coon, yet Judge does not see coon and no off game is seen." And it seems to me that this has been interpretted one of two ways lately...

There's the liberal approach... where if the tree is taller than us, and there's a leaf on it, well then there could be a coon behind that leaf!

There's the coservative approach... where if you can't show us a spot that can't be shined due to cover or a hole in the tree, then it's a slick!

And it seems to me that many casts have the pendulum swinging way too far one way or another. First of all, I think most can agree that there's way more slick trees in July, than the cards reflect, but at the same time some seem to want to be heroes and perhaps considered overly honest and unwilling to give the dog the benefit of the doubt! As if it's a badge of honor to minus your own dog, when in reality, they may have not made a mistake.

For example... Mr. Newlin and I were out last week and our dogs treed on a decent size sycamore with a big fork about halfway up. And both of us looked at that funny shaped fork, and said there could have been a hole there, that we couldn't see. But if we were in a hunt, there's a high probability that we would have minused the dogs, because we couldn't actually see a hole! And if we had, what happened next would have been very problematic, and would have ended up on this board for sure!

We recast the dogs, and when they were not around to make racket we could here squalling and growling back where that tree was. We walked over there, and it was obvious, that it was coming from inside that tree, meaning there was a hole that we couldn't see!

So how bad would we all have felt for laying the minus to those dogs, as if they had done wrong, and then heard the truth after their barking wasn't covering up the truth?!?

So is it possible to attempt to be too honest, minusing everything that isn't for sure, a den? And is that as big a problem as circling slicks???

David Schmidt

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If i'm judgeing no knot or broke off spot will be considered as a hole unless it is clearly a hole. These guys that want to circle knots and broke off limbs kow what they are doing. Every tree has a hole in it if you look hard enough.

Sure nobody wants to take that double minus but that's what hunting through the week is supposed to prevent.

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Registered: Jun 2008
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Trevor,

What about that wide crotch that could be a hole, like in the example I gave, where it was?

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Location: Ohio
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quote:

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Originally posted by deschmidt27
Trevor,

What about that wide crotch that could be a hole, like in the example I gave, where it was?

---

I don't see anything in the rules that says coulld be a coon, or could be a babble, or could be a hole. It either is or it isn't This is just my oppinion though. The situation you described I look at it the same as saying you're satisfied with a tree then turning around and seeing the coon. Both are rare but both happen.

If we start circleing deep forks and other similar things before long it will only get worse. I'm a firm believer that each and every tree is different but if I don't see a legit hole my vote is minus.

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I hate circle treees. With our scoring system and the fact that most of the hunts in my area are when the leaves are on make it tough to win with an accurate, loner type dog. If its a tree with 2 dogs on it you know walking in its gonna be circled. (liberal) if its a tree with 1 dog on it its minused (conservative).

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Registered: Dec 2010
Location: west central illinois
Posts: 183

quote:

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Originally posted by john Duemmer
I hate circle treees. With our scoring system and the fact that most of the hunts in my area are when the leaves are on make it tough to win with an accurate, loner type dog. If its a tree with 2 dogs on it you know walking in its gonna be circled. (liberal) if its a tree with 1 dog on it its minused (conservative).

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Registered: Mar 2011
Location: Indiana
Posts: 114

Guys I'm confused. In southern Indiana, just like happened two nights ago, we tree plenty of times, even in Beech trees, where no hole can be seen. But how many beeches are NOT hollow? Same with big sycamores.
So what is wrong with circle trees in these situations? I could be wrong, but the does the rules not say "a coon could be there". Yes, there is an element of honesty that has to be maintained...but saying a coon is not there for sure seems like it night be dishonest as well. Your thoughts?

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Registered: Jun 2008
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But Trevor, that's exactly what the rule says... "Where there COULD be a coon". I'm quoting it verbatim, from the rule book. And if we heard coon in the tree, then that must mean they COULD be there. I hate the game playing, and the circling of anything with a leaf on it, but in this case there was a place that could hide a coon, and I don't want others slapping my dog or anyone elses with minus they didn't deserve. That can quickly become a game too!

That's the point of this post... What's the balance between scoring a tree appropriately, and going over-board, in either direction. If you don't find a coon and decide you're satisfied, because there's no where else to look, that's one thing. But making judgements based on assumptions, is another. And perhaps assuming there's no hole, just because you can't see it, is a bad one. I'm not talking about calling a knot a hole, I'm talking about something you're not looking right at.

David Schmidt

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Registered: May 2005
Location: Bellevue, IA
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I first heard of the deep fork excuse 20 years in Indiana. Looks like you Hoosier's are still using it.

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Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Burlington, CT
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I guess you guys missed the part where I said we couldn't see the hole, but clearly heard the coons fighting inside...

In my opinion, a decision to minus these two dogs would be as unjust as circling a slick!

David Schmidt

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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
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David, that possible hole in the crotch was a question that came back at Wyatt a couple years ago. The MOH (it was his first time as MOH) ruled that he tree should be circled because there "could have been" a hole. UKC called him on the phone Monday mourning and straightened him out on that one. It was also brought up on the board, I'll see if I can find it.
The rule says "could be a coon" not where there "could be a hole". Big difference.

As for hearing the coons inside, heck yes, I'd circle on that but you can not plus from that. Also, you said the dogs were recast before you ever heard those coons squalling....... another UNMINUS situation?????

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Seems like "holes or could be holes" may have been covered in the advisor before. Maybe not. Regardless, a situation as described would not be considered a judgement call but rather a misinterpretation.

5(a) states that points would be circled if dog trees up a tree or a hole in the ground where there could be a coon, yet Judge does not see coon and no off-game is seen.

Think about "where there could be a coon" for a minute.

That would mean a tree so leafy that you simply couldn't get a good enough look at it to score it and a coon could very well be somewhere that you just couldn't see him.

Or, a hole in the tree where the coon could be hiding inside. (not a "could be" hole where a coon "could be" hiding inside.

Sure, there may be trees that could have holes that you can't see and we have to take those breaks as they come if that's the case. Understand that if you would open it up to "could be" holes then get ready to circle way too many trees. Too many "could be's" wouldn't actually be holes if verified and the truth be known.

Before you circle a tree because it is a den then you need to find a hole (that you can see that is big enough for a coon to get in). "Could be" holes won't fly around here. Sorry. Either it is or it isn't.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by JiM
Allen / UKC
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Registered: Nov 2004
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Before you circle a tree because it is a den then you need to find a hole (that you can see that is big enough for a coon to get in). "Could be" holes won't fly around here. Sorry. Either it is or it isn't.

---

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Registered: Jun 2008
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OK... so let me tell you a bit more about this mysterious crotch. They were treed in the middle of a swamp, in water and there were actually wet coon prints on the tree leading up to and disappearing at the crotch. Plus as I said, we could hear the coon inside.

But Joe and I looked at each other, knowing that we too would usually minus this tree, and said lets put it on the board and see what people say.

So according to what Allen wrote, and nothing else, we would say that we can't see a hole and we can't plus coon squalls and growling, so let's minus these two liars!

But... I also have heard Allen say and write, that we're to use common sense and sound judgement.

Here's the point that may have been missed... I wasn't asking for a debate on whether knots or crotches should be circled or minused. And I wasn't asking for an opinion on scoring this particular situation. What I was asking for, was some deep thought on whether we're just as quick to minus a tree that shouldn't be, as some are to circle one, that shouldn't be.

I think some folks are too easy on their dogs, but some others are a bit too harsh. And this is a situation where Joe and I would have normally been too harsh. In the absence of the coon prints and squalling, we would have jumped to the wrong conclusion.

But I would also challenge the notion that a leafy tree can hide a coon, but a massive group of limbs, without an obvious hole couldn't. Or an obviously rotten snag with small holes all over it, and the top blown off, couldn't just as easily hide a big hole at the top, as a leafy tree could hide a coon. Truth be told there's probably more coon in dens without a visible hole, as there are coon hiding in leaves! It all begs us to use honest sound judgement.

David Schmidt

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I watched a nice size coon climb out of a hole in a tree while I was squirrel hunting a few years back. The hole that coon climbed out didn't look much bigger than my fist. Coon PULLED itself, climbed out the limb a short piece, turned around and went in head first and it sure didn't go in very easy either. How big is big enough?

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how about this situation, i was deer hunting in a tree and beside me there was a tree that i seen coon climb in and out all the time, but on the ground you would never know it was a den, in a hunt what would you do if the dogs treed on it whether your dog was on it or not?

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Registered: Jun 2008
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Those are great examples, and I bet we all have a few, which is why I've started cautioning myself about jumping to conclusions.

I think some of us spend a lot of time on this board, hearing about all the liars and cheaters plussing up or circling slicks, and have decided we won't be caught in that category. Which is fine... just don't do the opposite and started putting the pencil to old blue, unnecessarily.

That's all...


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Registered: Aug 2006
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well if you seen wet Coon prints going up and not coming down then circle it for the deep crotch if the coon wasn't seen, wasn't there a post on this board or maybe the other about possum tracks in the snow going in a den and somebody wanted to minus for off game sometime back??

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As I said in my above response its a bad break if the tree your or my dog was on was actually a den but a hole couldnt be found. But a hole MUST be seen. As myself and Allen alreadte stated, the line must be drawn. It clearly is. A hole big enough for a coon must be seen on the tree.

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I just go by the first tree circled. As long as we judge the rest of the trees like we do the first one I am good. Liberal or conservitive I don't care just do them all the same.
I know if the other casts judge theres liberal and your cast judges conservitive then you are at a disadvantage but that can't be helped.

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Like Randy said above, how big is big enough?? A couple years ago we put a coon in a hole, that i couldn't get my hand in. Could hear it in there growling though. If it woulda been the same situation in a tree would you have said the hole wasn't big enough for a coon?

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Registered: Mar 2008
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Had one just night before last. Big bare tree that i thought was slick, had a hole about 8 feet up about the size of a golf ball, no way a coon used that hole but just as my light hit it a coon moved up the tree past that hole. We looked and looked and couldt find a hole at the top but that coon got in there somewhere. It would have been a minus tree in a hunt forsure.

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Registered: Jun 2003
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Posts: 14388

I don't go in looking for holes or nests or deep forks. I go in looking for Coon fur. Sometimes its not there. I don't make excuses. They missed. It happens. Minus me. Im not scared

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if you cant see a fork good enough to determine whether it has a hole or not can you see it good enough to minus it.... if the answer is no you circle it

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I think that if they went to either plus or minus , it would save alot of arguements.
Either you have the chance to kill a coon or you don't.

Sure , your dog may take some minus sometimes when it don't deserve it , but it shouldn't happen enough for a person to worry about.
Not around here anyways.

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