Registered: Jun 2003
Location: kansas
Posts: 1771

1. a 2 dog night Ch cast with a hunting judge. how do you score a tree if one of them sees the coon and the other dont?

2. where is the rule that explains scoring a tree when the coon is in the next tree over andcommon sence says there is no way but the twigs of the end of a branch is touching.

Last edited by mleck on 04-01-2010 at 03:23 PM

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: N.E. Arkansas
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1.) Circle

2.) If coon is in next tree over and only tiny limbs touch, minus the tree if you can clearly see no coon is in the tree the dogs are on.

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2. The only rule that applies is 3(a) and it simply states plus points when dogs tree and a coon is seen. It doesn't specify anything else. The rest is up to the cast and their personel levels of integrity.

Page 95 in the Advisor book has an excellant discussion on this very subject. The article is strictly Kellam's opinion and I don't take it as an official UKC interpretation. But I wish Allen would reprint it in the magazine column because it is one of the best things written in the Advisor book.
In the last paragraph Kellam gives his own personel view on scoring cross outs. He states he doesn't feel coons should be scored more than one tree away. He also feels there should be a direct route with a limb atleast wrist size. And he feels crossouts should be identified before the shinetime starts especially if there is any chance you could be scoring two trees as one tree.

I thought enough of it that I use it as my guide when scoring trees in UKC,AKC and PKC.

Last edited by on 04-01-2010 at 03:41 PM

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Registered: Aug 2008
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The answer to question #1 is tto circle the tree. This is because the rule states that it takes a (majority) vote to plus or minus a tree. If you don't have a (majority) ie: 2-1 vote or 3-4 vote you have no choice but to circle.

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There should NEVER be only two members in a cast, if the cast starts with three or four and all but two withdraw or get scratched then timeout should be called so the two members left can return to the clubhouse to get another member that can finish judging the cast.


If only two people are left and nobody else is available at the clubhouse then my bet would go with the judge, afterall they are to be hand picked by the MOH before the hunt starts.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Los Angeles, MN
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quote:

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Originally posted by treberta
There should NEVER be only two members in a cast, if the cast starts with three or four and all but two withdraw or get scratched then timeout should be called so the two members left can return to the clubhouse to get another member that can finish judging the cast.


If only two people are left and nobody else is available at the clubhouse then my bet would go with the judge, afterall they are to be hand picked by the MOH before the hunt starts.

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Registered: Sep 2007
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quote:

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Originally posted by Rocketman55
The answer to question #1 is tto circle the tree. This is because the rule states that it takes a (majority) vote to plus or minus a tree. If you don't have a (majority) ie: 2-1 vote or 3-4 vote you have no choice but to circle.

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If it is a hunting judge, the judge cannot plus it or minus it, all the judge can do when scoring the tree is vote.

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quote:

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Originally posted by josh
Where are you getting this from ? I have drawn 2 dog casts several times right from the clubhouse.

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Explain to me how a hunting judge on a two dog cast can get a tree plussed if the other cast member can't see a coon?

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quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
Explain to me how a hunting judge on a two dog cast can get a tree plussed if the other cast member can't see a coon?

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Well let me see here.

It's 1 against 1. My guess is if this is happening it will be happening all night and the cast will come in with a pile of circle points anyway (which is why it should never happen to begin with) If the judge truly knows there is a coon he is obviously going to question it, afterall he did see the coon and wants his points.

Now after the hunt they will return to the clubhouse and the MOH will have to make a decision based on what he is told by both handlers. The judge already has the upper hand because he was selected by the MOH before the cast even began.

I will go with the judge most anytime, even though he may be a crook and a liar he still was hand selected to judge. Plus em up.

I hope it's obvious that a 2 dog cast with only 2 voting members is a terrible idea, which is why PKC does not allow it.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Los Angeles, MN
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Treberta, There are plenty of guys I have hunted with capable of going on a 2 dog cast and scoring it honestly, and some not so much...

A 1 to 1 vote is a circle all day long.....How is a MOH going to score a tree he has never seen?

I agree, a 2 dog cast isnt the best situation, but its not an impossible one either.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Missouri
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I've drawn several 2 dog casts from the clubhouse and all were run by the book without any problems or questions from anyone. The potential is there for problems, but if you have honest handlers things always go smoother.

But I wanted to say something about twigs touching and a coon in the next tree. Not to muddy the water, but when a coon crawls out on a little bitty limb, it will bow down under his weight and sometimes go right into a good sized limb in another tree.

I've seen a coon cross over between 2 trees whose limbs were a few feet apart and not even touching. Not only did the coon cross out of the tree the dog was treeing on, he eventually crossed right back into it.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: kansas
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ok who detemines if the tree will be scored as one tree or seperate trees if a split tree is occuring? Is it the judges call r a cast vote to score as one or two seperate trees?




Headed to Branson in a few hours I will catch up with replys on Sunday.

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Registered: Jul 2003
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my best advise is for the MOH to put the best looking fella, honest, intelligent, nice hound, the list goes on as the judge. For this question to be asked, who did you have as the judge?

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Registered: Jun 2003
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quote:

---

Originally posted by blueticker
my best advise is for the MOH to put the best looking fella, honest, intelligent, nice hound, the list goes on as the judge. For this question to be asked, who did you have as the judge?

---

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Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:

---

Originally posted by JiM
2. The only rule that applies is 3(a) and it simply states plus points when dogs tree and a coon is seen. It doesn't specify anything else. The rest is up to the cast and their personel levels of integrity.

Page 95 in the Advisor book has an excellant discussion on this very subject. The article is strictly Kellam's opinion and I don't take it as an official UKC interpretation. But I wish Allen would reprint it in the magazine column because it is one of the best things written in the Advisor book.
In the last paragraph Kellam gives his own personel view on scoring cross outs. He states he doesn't feel coons should be scored more than one tree away. He also feels there should be a direct route with a limb atleast wrist size. And he feels crossouts should be identified before the shinetime starts especially if there is any chance you could be scoring two trees as one tree.

I thought enough of it that I use it as my guide when scoring trees in UKC,AKC and PKC.

---

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Registered: Mar 2009
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I called ukc and ask the ? on cross over trees acording to either Todd or Allen cant remember which one i talked to ukc alows a coon to timber one tree not two or three if the trees are touching the only exception would be if a tree has fell over into two or three trees and acting as a bridge as far as the two dog cast ?? it would haft to be circled

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: kansas
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Thanks for the replys but still sounds kind like several different opinions out there. very interesting.

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Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:

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Originally posted by BearCreekWalker
jim were do you get a copy of the coon hound advisor i have looked sevral times and can only find the standard ukc coon hound rule book

thanks john williams

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ttt

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quote:

---

Originally posted by BearCreekWalker
jim were do you get a copy of the coon hound advisor i have looked sevral times and can only find the standard ukc coon hound rule book

thanks john williams

---

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All you have to use is common sense when it comes to coon crossing trees, UKC can't teach common sense.

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by mleck
[B]ok who detemines if the tree will be scored as one tree or seperate trees if a split tree is occuring? Is it the judges call r a cast vote to score as one or two seperate trees?


To answer your question, the judge decides if it is scored as one tree or seperate trees. The judge has to do his job and handle everything the way he sees it. The cast is required to vote on all questions. The three things that must be voted on as a cast and not just the judges decision are scoring trees, if it is a previously scored tree, and calling timeouts. All other things are his decision and can only be voted on if questioned in the woods, and must have a majority to overturn it. If no majority, the call stands as is and the question is brought back to the MOH. The answer to these questions is circle, and if the judge said one tree, then it is plus and if he said seperate trees then it is minus.

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