Registered: Aug 2009
Location: Kellogg Mn.
Posts: 294

Do the bird dog people go thru as many dogs to get a good one as it seems that the hound dog people do ? It seems like alot of the hound people go thru alot of dogs to get a good one . Both have been bred for several generations to do what they are supposed to do . Is it the dogs or the people hunting them the reason they dont make the grade ? Would like to hear some opinions .

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Registered: Dec 2008
Location: Illinois
Posts: 331

I don't have any experience with bird dogs, we did have them when I was young and they were good hunters, but I didn't have anything to do with it. I have been told that a much higher percentage of bird dogs make good hunters though

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Registered: Jul 2007
Location: nova scotia canada
Posts: 259

quote:

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Originally posted by bluff country
Do the bird dog people go thru as many dogs to get a good one as it seems that the hound dog people do ? It seems like alot of the hound people go thru alot of dogs to get a good one . Both have been bred for several generations to do what they are supposed to do . Is it the dogs or the people hunting them the reason they dont make the grade ? Would like to hear some opinions .

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Registered: Jul 2009
Location:
Posts: 143

a great deal of variables in comparing the two. breeders, trainer/handlers, and most of all the job they do. while i don't think it's an apples to apples comparison i would also think that there is something to be learned from a comparison and seeing how others obtain the goals of a good working dog in the field. jmo.

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Registered: Feb 2010
Location: Perry, Fl.
Posts: 384

There are two kinds of dog people. There are men with dogs and there are dog men. There are a lot more of one than there is the other.

Psiskjr

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Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Neenah,WI.
Posts: 502

I've had bird dogs and coon dogs for over 20 years. The bird
dog I have now and my very first one are what I consider top
notch hunting dogs. Several in between were just decent. I've
had several top notch coon dogs, some decent, and some that
couldn't do anything. A bird dogs job in my opinion is a lot easier
than a coon dogs so more of them will make a decent dog. It is
my experience also that most coon dogs will learn how to sit,
heel, ect. actually faster than most bird dogs (if they are taught
these things).

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Registered: Aug 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 439

I know a fella that trains setters and he`ll tell you that at the highest end they do, but he doesn`t have to cull the ones that aren`t world class because average hunters will buy them.

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Pete Rhines

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Registered: Nov 2009
Location:
Posts: 293

No...I actually prefer bird dogs to hounds when it comes to training them. More fun for me, without the disapointment.

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Registered: Jun 2009
Location: oneida,tn
Posts: 154

It might help if people actually hunted the hounds lol. I hate seeing a 2 yr old "started" dog. Is the fact that many dont get hunted the simple reason why so many hounds dont make it?? Ive thought a lot about that.

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Registered: Dec 2006
Location: Sandy Hook, KY
Posts: 1009

can make a quil dog out of aney bird dog or a phesant dog easey.to make a good grouce dog is a nothere storey they dont come along every day.but training bird dogs is the eaest dog to train you just got to have the know how.

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Registered: Mar 2004
Location: tioga co.pa
Posts: 1728

vision vs sound...... Bird dogs are easier to train...

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Registered: Jan 2009
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 2789

I have a buddy that trains Champion retrievers on a regular basis. He can't do squat with tree dogs.

I think with both types of dogs, it is the breeders. Great dogs are naturals. They require little training, just some hard hunting.

Bird dog breeders may be better than tree dog breeders at this time.

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Registered: Feb 2006
Location: Western Pa
Posts: 2106

A lot of bird dogs are "force trained". With a coondog there is a limit to what we can bring out of them.

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I will guess that the reason bird dogs have a higher percentage of success is because they don't work alone. Their handler is almost always within sight and close enough to control with voice commands. Bird dogs get alot of help from their handlers. Coondogs operate completely on their own, out of range from thier handlers and must do everything without any human assistance and stay on the job (treed) till their handler arrives which could be a long time. Big difference in the demands made on the dog.
It is prolly alot harder to be a good coondog than it is to be a good birddog.

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Registered: Dec 2003
Location: il
Posts: 318

u are right jim, all the birddog training starts on a 20 foot rope and are made to do a command after it is given. they are completly under the trainer control first.
also my english setters are way more intellegent then my lipper bred walkers

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Registered: Feb 2008
Location: central indiana
Posts: 440

quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
I will guess that the reason bird dogs have a higher percentage of success is because they don't work alone. Their handler is almost always within sight and close enough to control with voice commands. Bird dogs get alot of help from their handlers. Coondogs operate completely on their own, out of range from thier handlers and must do everything without any human assistance and stay on the job (treed) till their handler arrives which could be a long time. Big difference in the demands made on the dog.
It is prolly alot harder to be a good coondog than it is to be a good birddog.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 3232

A bird dog has many more generations in front of them than the coonhound. Their natural instincs are bred much deeper. I miss bird hunting something awful.

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Registered: Sep 2003
Location: GIFFORD,IL.
Posts: 1020

How many litters of hound pups are treeing at eight weeks sent or sight ? I am hounds all the way ,but like to hunt behind a good pointing dog .Dad has raised and trained some top notch setters pointers and shorthairs ,to hunt with and feild trial .I have seen a whole litter of english pointer pups lock up on a feather at eight weeks ,it is a great thing to watch and see ,even if you arent a bird dog person ,so back to hounds,Ihave had or see few eight week old pups blow up a tree but rare a whole litter .Now that doesnt mean that the ones treeing will be top notch ,nore the ones not treen be dud or culls ,they can still make it and may be top notch ,but the natural abilities is what I am striving for and love to see,Question are we behind in our breeing in hounds compare to bird dogs ?What do u all think ?

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Registered: May 2009
Location: Tonkawa Oklahoma
Posts: 5586

quote:

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Originally posted by bluff country
Do the bird dog people go thru as many dogs to get a good one as it seems that the hound dog people do ? It seems like alot of the hound people go thru alot of dogs to get a good one . Both have been bred for several generations to do what they are supposed to do . Is it the dogs or the people hunting them the reason they dont make the grade ? Would like to hear some opinions .

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Registered: Dec 2006
Location: Sandy Hook, KY
Posts: 1009

i have trained every breed of bird dogs there is AND PLENTY OF THEM NOT JUST A FEW i mean more then you would emagin and i can train a bird dog 110 percent easer then a hound in to a coon dog,david boggs.ps,, i have even made 2 bird dog videos for a verry well knowen kinnel on how to train bird dog 4 different things and 2 stud dog videows of the mans line of dogs the hardes of all is a GREAT GROUCE DOG THAT CAN POINT THAT FAINT CENT so you can get close to the grouce befor it flushes but it can be dun and takes more time and onley 5 percent make great grouce dogs.95 percent will make great quiel dogs and most all will make pheasnt dogs.most of the bird dog traing is comen cence and havining the know how and willing to do your job as a trainer.some dogs need force broke to retrive some dont wing to shot is different training training one to back and not creep to still the point and the list gos on and on and woo breaking takes training and when i say woo i mean woo and it all starts on a stake with a check cord and you onley use a shock coller to force wat you have trained onley.i have trained several people over the years to teach them how to train bird dogs it was my job 4 a long time.raise them train them and sale them

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Kalamazoo, Mich.
Posts: 6113

Pretty good topic that I can relate to. In my opinion, a higher percentage of bird dogs pups will make average dogs than hound pups. But not a higher percentage make outstanding dogs.

Then consider two more facts. Many bird dogs get brought into the home then even if they are average at best, they are there to stay because most families will not sell off an average bird dog to upgrade because the pet factor is more important. Also, most average bird hunters don't demand perfection if there intent is simply to kill a few birds. And perfection is not needed to kill birds. So they hunt what they got and kill a few.

Coonhunters are far more willing to cull, sell or whatever en route to looking for that outstanding dog. If a pointer isn't steady but allows you to get close enough to kill the bird before he flushes it, some guys are fine with that. How many coonhunters you know that are fine with shooting coons out of a tree their dog just left?

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Lumpkin, Ga
Posts: 8757

I have no experience training bird dogs either but I think the strict breeding and culling practices by the english is carried over in bird dogs. The pointing trait stays with them for a very long time as is shown after it has been crossed into hounds so that strict breeding early on might be a reason for more bird dogs turning out.

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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: IOWA
Posts: 1385

quote:

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Originally posted by Craig Harris
Question are we behind in our breeing in hounds compare to bird dogs ?What do u all think ?

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Registered: Nov 2006
Location: Mayer, MN
Posts: 920

Bird dogs tend to hang closer so they get more correction or encouragement right when it matters. Hounds that have some hunt drive are out a ways and you have to sort out what they did right or not then try to steer them toward it the next time. I have had some fun hunting with Labs and if you want to find some pheasants they just help you do it better versus walking and flushing them on your own. The hunter already has some idea where the birds should be so you walk the dog into fence rows, unharvested edges, grass/cattails or standing crops......its not a secret that birds should be in those spots. Getting onto a coon in the dark you let the dog lead you or that is the general idea. The trust part is flipped upside down from bird hunting.

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Registered: Sep 2003
Location: GIFFORD,IL.
Posts: 1020

willseeyalater, have u ever hunted with a pointer ?not the same as hunting with a lab ,u have to break one down to get it to hunt in your eye sight ,very wide hunting dogs ,the ones I have been exposed to

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